I have a 51 8N 6 volt with side distributor that I have been having starting problems with for a couple of years now. I am considering converting to an electronic ignition as this would eliminate a lot of could be problems with shorts. I would appreciate any pros and cons on making this conversion and should I go ahead and convert to 12 volt system at the same time. The electronic ignition seems to be available as 6 volt or 12 volt. I look forward to your comments and many thanks in advance!
Royse
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ionia County, Michigan
If I were going to convert it, I would convert to 12V first.
Make sure everything works on the 12V conversion, then
convert to EI afterwards if you want to.
Just less things to go wrong at one time that way.
Make sure everything works on the 12V conversion, then
convert to EI afterwards if you want to.
Just less things to go wrong at one time that way.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" I have been having starting problems with for a couple of years now. I am considering converting to an electronic ignition as this would eliminate a lot of could be problems with shorts."
You're kidding, right?
If you can't find the problem w/ "shorts" on a points ignition system, what makes you think they are going to disappear w/ EI?
There are a few folks around here that will tell you that EI is the greatest thing since sliced bread (I'm not one of them) but even those guys will tell you to find the problem first.
The EI debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic so that you can make an informed decision based upon factual information. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & some BS (“ my EI system doesn't have any transistors... “) . You will also find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to installing EI on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. (“the automotive industry went to EI 35 years ago”)
Once you parse out the BS there are specific factual pros & cons for keeping a points system and for using EI on an N. What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. The EI unit itself does not have annual maintenance requirements.
I’ll offer my rationale for keeping the points in my N’s; if our experience & situation are similar, then perhaps EI isn’t the answer for you either.
Knowledge. I was probably 13 or 14 when I learned how to change a set of points; that was in 1962 or 63. Every car I owned up until 1976 had points. I can fix them or change them & I have the tools to do it; I understand how they work & understand the need to use quality parts. But, while I understand how EI works, I do not have the tools or knowledge to fix a module when it burns up. And they do burn up. When it stops, it stops. You aren't going to get it going again w/ a finger nail file, screwdriver & a dime to set the gap. Even as frustrating as points can be at times, worst case scenario is replace them for $16 and continue work. Not so w/ that EI. Don’t use the reliability of the EI on your car or truck as a benchmark for longevity on your N. Your car’s ignition system was designed for the EI & uses far different materials at much closer tolerances than your 60 year old tractor’s ignition system, designed for points. There are many specific & valid reasons that vehicles today use EI & most of those reasons are not applicable to a 23 hp, 2400 rpm 60 year old tractor engine. If you think an EI on these N’s is foolproof, then do that archive search I suggested. You will see many examples of folks who are not pleased to spend $135 for something that will fail & can't be fixed by the average-Joe tractor owner. And, I'm also amazed at some of the EI owners around here who will constantly tell us how infallible EI is every time the debate comes up but are strangely silent when a unit malfunctions.
6v System. All 4 of my N’s are 6v & I haven’t had a reason to convert them to 12v. And, because of the precise voltage requirements of EI (it won’t work below 5.2v) EI on a 6v system is just a problem waiting to happen.
Maintenance. I keep my 3 front distributor & 1 side distributor N’s well maintained. Contrary to what some folks will tell you, EI will not cure a bad rotor or cap, worn plug wires, a bad ballast resistor, an ill-fitting coil or any other typical ignition problems found on these old tractors. While EI is more tolerant of wear in these tractors than points are, EI also has it's minimum specs. The EI is only going to be as good as the system it’s installed on. All you get by putting an EI on an N w/ these problems is a poorly running N w/ an EI instead of points.
Consequence of error. If I hook up the battery cables backward on my points system nothing happens to them. Reverse polarity on an EI and it fries. If I leave the key on & the points are closed, I melt the points & probably the coil. That’s a $40 mistake. If you leave the key on w/ EI, that’s a $150 mistake.
Cost. I can replace a lot of points for the cost of EI. And, in my case, I’d need to convert the tractor to 12v, so that’s a total cost of around $235.
EI does not give you higher spark voltage, eliminate all maintenance on your ignition system or give enough of a horsepower boost to cause the tractor to do wheelies. It replaces the points. That’s it. It will not correct or overcome other major problems in the ignition system. While it may give you more HP or improve fuel economy, both would be so insignificant as to be hardly noticeable on a 23 hp engine.
If you can’t set points or don’t care to do it, or you don’t want to spend the 30 minutes or so a year to check the gap & lube the cam, then you will be happy w/ EI. And, the EI unit itself will be maintenance free. (but the rest of the ignition system won’t)
You will spend probably $235 for an EI kit & 12v conversion. If you install them correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 volt conversion & EI will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.
The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
The key disadvantages to EI on an N are initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.
Bottom line……….this is the question you need to answer: “If tens of thousands of other N’s operate just fine on 6v and points, why can’t mine?”
75 Tips
You're kidding, right?
If you can't find the problem w/ "shorts" on a points ignition system, what makes you think they are going to disappear w/ EI?
There are a few folks around here that will tell you that EI is the greatest thing since sliced bread (I'm not one of them) but even those guys will tell you to find the problem first.
The EI debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic so that you can make an informed decision based upon factual information. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & some BS (“ my EI system doesn't have any transistors... “) . You will also find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to installing EI on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. (“the automotive industry went to EI 35 years ago”)
Once you parse out the BS there are specific factual pros & cons for keeping a points system and for using EI on an N. What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. The EI unit itself does not have annual maintenance requirements.
I’ll offer my rationale for keeping the points in my N’s; if our experience & situation are similar, then perhaps EI isn’t the answer for you either.
Knowledge. I was probably 13 or 14 when I learned how to change a set of points; that was in 1962 or 63. Every car I owned up until 1976 had points. I can fix them or change them & I have the tools to do it; I understand how they work & understand the need to use quality parts. But, while I understand how EI works, I do not have the tools or knowledge to fix a module when it burns up. And they do burn up. When it stops, it stops. You aren't going to get it going again w/ a finger nail file, screwdriver & a dime to set the gap. Even as frustrating as points can be at times, worst case scenario is replace them for $16 and continue work. Not so w/ that EI. Don’t use the reliability of the EI on your car or truck as a benchmark for longevity on your N. Your car’s ignition system was designed for the EI & uses far different materials at much closer tolerances than your 60 year old tractor’s ignition system, designed for points. There are many specific & valid reasons that vehicles today use EI & most of those reasons are not applicable to a 23 hp, 2400 rpm 60 year old tractor engine. If you think an EI on these N’s is foolproof, then do that archive search I suggested. You will see many examples of folks who are not pleased to spend $135 for something that will fail & can't be fixed by the average-Joe tractor owner. And, I'm also amazed at some of the EI owners around here who will constantly tell us how infallible EI is every time the debate comes up but are strangely silent when a unit malfunctions.
6v System. All 4 of my N’s are 6v & I haven’t had a reason to convert them to 12v. And, because of the precise voltage requirements of EI (it won’t work below 5.2v) EI on a 6v system is just a problem waiting to happen.
Maintenance. I keep my 3 front distributor & 1 side distributor N’s well maintained. Contrary to what some folks will tell you, EI will not cure a bad rotor or cap, worn plug wires, a bad ballast resistor, an ill-fitting coil or any other typical ignition problems found on these old tractors. While EI is more tolerant of wear in these tractors than points are, EI also has it's minimum specs. The EI is only going to be as good as the system it’s installed on. All you get by putting an EI on an N w/ these problems is a poorly running N w/ an EI instead of points.
Consequence of error. If I hook up the battery cables backward on my points system nothing happens to them. Reverse polarity on an EI and it fries. If I leave the key on & the points are closed, I melt the points & probably the coil. That’s a $40 mistake. If you leave the key on w/ EI, that’s a $150 mistake.
Cost. I can replace a lot of points for the cost of EI. And, in my case, I’d need to convert the tractor to 12v, so that’s a total cost of around $235.
EI does not give you higher spark voltage, eliminate all maintenance on your ignition system or give enough of a horsepower boost to cause the tractor to do wheelies. It replaces the points. That’s it. It will not correct or overcome other major problems in the ignition system. While it may give you more HP or improve fuel economy, both would be so insignificant as to be hardly noticeable on a 23 hp engine.
If you can’t set points or don’t care to do it, or you don’t want to spend the 30 minutes or so a year to check the gap & lube the cam, then you will be happy w/ EI. And, the EI unit itself will be maintenance free. (but the rest of the ignition system won’t)
You will spend probably $235 for an EI kit & 12v conversion. If you install them correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 volt conversion & EI will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.
The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
The key disadvantages to EI on an N are initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.
Bottom line……….this is the question you need to answer: “If tens of thousands of other N’s operate just fine on 6v and points, why can’t mine?”
75 Tips
I have converted my two 1949 front distributor 8Ns
to 12 volts and EI. To me it was well worth the
money I spent. I did it mainly because good front
mount points are getting difficult to find and the
price of good points are getting expensive.
However, EI only replaces the points and
condenser. If you have any other problems it will
not fix it other then it will compensate for a
minor wear in the distributor bushings. EI is best
when installed on a 12 volt system. 6 Volt systems
have a problem with voltage being low and the EI
not firing. A 12 volt system makes the N tractors
start easier in all kinds of weather and you can
use modern attachments like sprayers that only
come as 12 volts. My 1950 8N side mount
distributor is 12 volts but still has points. So
far I have not found it difficult finding good
side mount points. When that time comes I will
convert it to EI.
to 12 volts and EI. To me it was well worth the
money I spent. I did it mainly because good front
mount points are getting difficult to find and the
price of good points are getting expensive.
However, EI only replaces the points and
condenser. If you have any other problems it will
not fix it other then it will compensate for a
minor wear in the distributor bushings. EI is best
when installed on a 12 volt system. 6 Volt systems
have a problem with voltage being low and the EI
not firing. A 12 volt system makes the N tractors
start easier in all kinds of weather and you can
use modern attachments like sprayers that only
come as 12 volts. My 1950 8N side mount
distributor is 12 volts but still has points. So
far I have not found it difficult finding good
side mount points. When that time comes I will
convert it to EI.
I agree with Bruce. My '50 has points and will probably have them till she don't run no more.
Reason 1. points give up the ghost I break out the finger nail file give it a filing drag a dollar through them and I fire it up an d keep going.
Reason 2. EI. gives up the ghost better have comfy boots on cause your walking.
Been there done that have the t-shirt hanging in the closet just my 2 sense though.
Reason 1. points give up the ghost I break out the finger nail file give it a filing drag a dollar through them and I fire it up an d keep going.
Reason 2. EI. gives up the ghost better have comfy boots on cause your walking.
Been there done that have the t-shirt hanging in the closet just my 2 sense though.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Just do it and don't look back.
There is a clique here will try to talk you out of it but to them it's more of a game of one ups manship than giving a darn whether you are a slave to points for the rest of your life.
There are many good reasons the worldwide auto industry went to points years ago.
The fact is there is not a single manufacturer of gas engines anywhere that is still installing points.
Outboards, lawn mowers, chain saws, cars, pickups, motorcycles, snowmobiles, stationary engines - Everything is EI now and has been for 25 years.
EI engines start better, get better fuel economy, are more reliable and require zero ignition maintenance.
I say and will continue to say, do it.
You will be glad you did.
There is a clique here will try to talk you out of it but to them it's more of a game of one ups manship than giving a darn whether you are a slave to points for the rest of your life.
There are many good reasons the worldwide auto industry went to points years ago.
The fact is there is not a single manufacturer of gas engines anywhere that is still installing points.
Outboards, lawn mowers, chain saws, cars, pickups, motorcycles, snowmobiles, stationary engines - Everything is EI now and has been for 25 years.
EI engines start better, get better fuel economy, are more reliable and require zero ignition maintenance.
I say and will continue to say, do it.
You will be glad you did.
I laugh and I joke, but I don't kid! I've worked on the thing until I was ready to blow it up, even called in the "pros" on two different occasions. It would run OK for a couple of mowings and then start going down hill each time. The last round at the pro shop wound up with a new wiring harness, plugs, plug wires and points & all the supporting goodies. The one thing that does strike me as odd is this tractor does not have a resistor terminal and never has had one since I've had it (12+ years). It was not replaced when serviced by the pros when they put in the wiring harness either. There is a old broken one there but it was bypassed when I bought it and I have never replaced it. My understanding is it isn't needed if the coil is 6v. I am aware of your 75 tips but I've been there and done that, still won't start. The last time I started it I turned the distributor counterclockwise a 1/2 inch, got it started then had to turn it back clockwise a 1/2 inch to get enough power to get it to run. Started mowing and it cut off after about 5 mins. Let her sit for an hour and got it restarted and parked it in the barn, turned it off. Tried to restart it and was unsuccessful. That was last summer. Wanna buy a used tractor that won't start or offer me more advise. Thanks in advance for your help. I really love this tractor for some damn reason.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
You do not have a unique problem by any means & plenty of people here can not only help you solve the problem but save you a bunch of money in the process.
First off, you say: "The one thing that does strike me as odd is this tractor does not have a resistor terminal and never has had one since I've had it (12+ years)."
It does not need one & never has. It has a side distributor. The front distributor had an OEM ballast resistor; the 6v side distributor never did. Some folks who don't know about 12v coils will convert a side distributor to 12v & add a resistor.
Next, you say: " The last time I started it I turned the distributor counterclockwise a 1/2 inch, got it started then had to turn it back clockwise a 1/2 inch to get enough power to get it to run."
Well, that wasn't a good idea because now the timing is screwed up. But, we can fix that. Later.
So lets start the troubleshooting.
Do you know how to set the points?
Assuming that answer is yes, get out your feeler gauge & check the gap. ( .025)
Do you have a meter or light to test it with?
Get which ever you have out & start the tractor.
As soon as it stops running (NOT 5 minutes later) you need to check for fuel & spark.
First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.
So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get an old plug, w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16", ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)
If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)
There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
Post back w/ results of these tests.
75 Tips
First off, you say: "The one thing that does strike me as odd is this tractor does not have a resistor terminal and never has had one since I've had it (12+ years)."
It does not need one & never has. It has a side distributor. The front distributor had an OEM ballast resistor; the 6v side distributor never did. Some folks who don't know about 12v coils will convert a side distributor to 12v & add a resistor.
Next, you say: " The last time I started it I turned the distributor counterclockwise a 1/2 inch, got it started then had to turn it back clockwise a 1/2 inch to get enough power to get it to run."
Well, that wasn't a good idea because now the timing is screwed up. But, we can fix that. Later.
So lets start the troubleshooting.
Do you know how to set the points?
Assuming that answer is yes, get out your feeler gauge & check the gap. ( .025)
Do you have a meter or light to test it with?
Get which ever you have out & start the tractor.
As soon as it stops running (NOT 5 minutes later) you need to check for fuel & spark.
First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.
So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get an old plug, w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16", ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)
If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)
There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
Post back w/ results of these tests.
75 Tips
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
WHUT HE SAID... There's a reason folks hate EI they don't know anything about them... Its obvious in the statements they make they have no merit they only know what other EI haters have said... I do admire there willingness to help folks chase there tail with points issues...
Dog, you can add points are only at there best the day you install them from there its all down hill... They are a maintenance item like motor oil...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" There's a reason folks hate EI they don't know anything about them..."
So, if someone doesn't favor EI, it's because they're don't understand how EI works? Guess I'm keeping company with a bunch of idiots then. It's sad that guys w/ electrical engineering degrees, guys w/ lots of tractors, guys living in the cold north, guys who sell tractor parts for a living and a lot of others are just so ignorant isn't it?
What if a guy owns three tractors & only has EI on one of them, is he just partially stupid? Mildly retarded maybe?
So, if someone doesn't favor EI, it's because they're don't understand how EI works? Guess I'm keeping company with a bunch of idiots then. It's sad that guys w/ electrical engineering degrees, guys w/ lots of tractors, guys living in the cold north, guys who sell tractor parts for a living and a lot of others are just so ignorant isn't it?
What if a guy owns three tractors & only has EI on one of them, is he just partially stupid? Mildly retarded maybe?
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I don't have a degree to run and hide behind when I am pushed into a corner and can not fight my way out of it... I don't need to come up with fancy words to impress... If I wanted to write a how to I don't need another YT mag'er to hold the pencil while I push the paper...
I take it you do not have hands on experiences but depend on other that don't either... Are you the pencil holder are the paper pusher...
I take it you do not have hands on experiences but depend on other that don't either... Are you the pencil holder are the paper pusher...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" I take it you do not have hands on experiences.."
No, I don't turn a wrench for a living. And all these old tractors & cars around here just magically fix themselves too.
" If I wanted to write a how to.."
What's stopping you? You've got plenty of experience, why not share it? Why let us unlearned & unskilled hobbyists do the writing?
" I don't have a degree to run and hide behind "
Excuse me, but I have a history degree. And a public administration degree. Why would I hide behind that?
But I digress........
I have a complete understanding of EI. And you know that. What the issue happens to be is (first) a fundamental disagreement on it's practical application in a 60+ year old tractor.
I hope it doesn't come as a surprise to you that no one around here gives a chit that you & I disagree on that.
And secondly, it does appear to irritate you that they are hobbyists around here that do indeed have more than a basic understanding of automotive electronics. And worse yet, some of us had the audacity to have written a couple of very basic articles.
Sorry, but sometimes sharing knowledge, even basic knowledge for those of us who don't make our living as mechanics, can be helpful to others.
No, I don't turn a wrench for a living. And all these old tractors & cars around here just magically fix themselves too.
" If I wanted to write a how to.."
What's stopping you? You've got plenty of experience, why not share it? Why let us unlearned & unskilled hobbyists do the writing?
" I don't have a degree to run and hide behind "
Excuse me, but I have a history degree. And a public administration degree. Why would I hide behind that?
But I digress........
I have a complete understanding of EI. And you know that. What the issue happens to be is (first) a fundamental disagreement on it's practical application in a 60+ year old tractor.
I hope it doesn't come as a surprise to you that no one around here gives a chit that you & I disagree on that.
And secondly, it does appear to irritate you that they are hobbyists around here that do indeed have more than a basic understanding of automotive electronics. And worse yet, some of us had the audacity to have written a couple of very basic articles.
Sorry, but sometimes sharing knowledge, even basic knowledge for those of us who don't make our living as mechanics, can be helpful to others.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
You can't fix them Hobo.
It's the same mentality that said don't throw rice at weddings cause the birdies will explode.
They didn't investigate. They only read it somewhere and repeated it - over and over - usually with an overly long and emotional appeal.
Just state the facts. And keep repeating them till they become the mantra here.
[i:654c4848f0]EI is solid state, has no moving parts like points and so does not degrade, get pitted or wear out.
EI does not care how worn your distributor bushings are. It'll work way beyond the maximum where a points engine would even run.
And the point cam can be severely worn and it does not matter at all.
EI is not nearly as susceptible to moisture problems.
It does not fail due to "invisible corrosion" from sitting over the winter or being in the damp.
Once set up it keeps plugging along in fair weather and foul with no maintenance.
That's ZERO maintenance. People just seem to over look that fact.
EI is the industry standard and has been in ALL gas engines for 25+ years.
I find it astonishing that some people claim that is not relevant.
EI improves ignition reliability in ALL gas engines.
Ei increases fuel efficiency, power and engine life and produces less pollution because the dwell is always correct.
Engine life? Pollution?
Yes.
A well tuned engine burns cleaner so unburned gas does not wash down your cylinder walls causing premature wear.
Clean burning does not break down the oil as fast and cause wear.
And a clean burning engine does not pollute like a misfiring engine does.[/i:654c4848f0]
Points are the same era of technology as your Granddad's 78 rpm record player.
As soon as you set the needle down both the record and needle begin to degrade and you can't hear Nat King Cole as well.
EI is like an Ipod - solid state.
You can play ZZ Top a hundred thousand times - if you like them that much
- and they still sound as good as day one.
It's the same mentality that said don't throw rice at weddings cause the birdies will explode.
They didn't investigate. They only read it somewhere and repeated it - over and over - usually with an overly long and emotional appeal.
Just state the facts. And keep repeating them till they become the mantra here.
[i:654c4848f0]EI is solid state, has no moving parts like points and so does not degrade, get pitted or wear out.
EI does not care how worn your distributor bushings are. It'll work way beyond the maximum where a points engine would even run.
And the point cam can be severely worn and it does not matter at all.
EI is not nearly as susceptible to moisture problems.
It does not fail due to "invisible corrosion" from sitting over the winter or being in the damp.
Once set up it keeps plugging along in fair weather and foul with no maintenance.
That's ZERO maintenance. People just seem to over look that fact.
EI is the industry standard and has been in ALL gas engines for 25+ years.
I find it astonishing that some people claim that is not relevant.
EI improves ignition reliability in ALL gas engines.
Ei increases fuel efficiency, power and engine life and produces less pollution because the dwell is always correct.
Engine life? Pollution?
Yes.
A well tuned engine burns cleaner so unburned gas does not wash down your cylinder walls causing premature wear.
Clean burning does not break down the oil as fast and cause wear.
And a clean burning engine does not pollute like a misfiring engine does.[/i:654c4848f0]
Points are the same era of technology as your Granddad's 78 rpm record player.
As soon as you set the needle down both the record and needle begin to degrade and you can't hear Nat King Cole as well.
EI is like an Ipod - solid state.
You can play ZZ Top a hundred thousand times - if you like them that much
- and they still sound as good as day one.Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" They only read it somewhere and repeated it - over and over - usually with an overly long and emotional appeal. "
Given your admitted & proven ignorance of EI, I'll assume that comment is a confession?
Actually, I think the best argument in this thread is from NOXJohn. Not from me w/ 4 tractors w/o EI, and certainly not from you who had EI on one tractor once.
The man has three tractors, but only two have EI. Installed because he couldn't find inexpensive quality points.
And I've heard others, lots of others, say the same thing. If it was so great, why not install it on all of them?
Use all the spurious analogies you want; nothing changes the fact that we're talking about a 60+ year old 23 hp tractor.
Nor do I consider others w/ EI on their tractors to be foolish or incompetent mechanics & I don't resort to ridiculing their decision.
Given your admitted & proven ignorance of EI, I'll assume that comment is a confession?
Actually, I think the best argument in this thread is from NOXJohn. Not from me w/ 4 tractors w/o EI, and certainly not from you who had EI on one tractor once.
The man has three tractors, but only two have EI. Installed because he couldn't find inexpensive quality points.
And I've heard others, lots of others, say the same thing. If it was so great, why not install it on all of them?
Use all the spurious analogies you want; nothing changes the fact that we're talking about a 60+ year old 23 hp tractor.
Nor do I consider others w/ EI on their tractors to be foolish or incompetent mechanics & I don't resort to ridiculing their decision.
Hobo,
a little off subject, but are the how-to's you DID make still on the internet anywhere? The ones Dunk hosted for awhile.
I used to send the coil conversion one address to people that were having front mount problems when I didn't have time to fix it for them. Told em to read it and give it a try and call me if they ran into problems.
There were other how-to's there too.
Showing people the sites was a lot easier than trying to explain fixes sometimes.
thanks
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
With all the experts that hang out here and wanna be a mechanic why do you think it takes two to 5 pages to figure out a simple points ignition issue... EI issues normally are figured out with way less trial and error because no one writes a book on issues that have nuttin to do with the issue. Our so called experts feel the need to condim'em right off the bat because they lack real world diagnostic skills... If Y'all are going to side one way are the other there's no need to hide behind what Y'all think Y'all know...
I don't have to write a book I know the right questions to ask and can goggle it. When I don't I ask then Google it so I can weed out the B.S. ... I pity folks that have to take there tractor apart to find a simple issue... I call it the YT trap and sometimes I fall into that trap... If I were to write a book it would be called YT traps That Trap You...
If you plan on coming to NC for a little Whoop arse I would drive the vehicle with EI...
Just say'n,,, you already know how dependable they are...Frank in VT
Member
I have a 52 8n side mount. Without going into the pros and
cons of EI I will say that I went down the exact same road and
did convert to EI.
I found with a few years under my belt that I was treating the
wrong end of my problem. And my starting problems did not
go away.
A new wiring harness, clean terminals, and remembering to
pay attention to the wiring system as a single system and not
as a collection different parts has brought me back to using
high quality points.
The EI is in the tool box gathering dust and my tractor is
happily running. Yeah.. I will have to service points... But
these things require service and its kinda why I keep her
around.
cons of EI I will say that I went down the exact same road and
did convert to EI.
I found with a few years under my belt that I was treating the
wrong end of my problem. And my starting problems did not
go away.
A new wiring harness, clean terminals, and remembering to
pay attention to the wiring system as a single system and not
as a collection different parts has brought me back to using
high quality points.
The EI is in the tool box gathering dust and my tractor is
happily running. Yeah.. I will have to service points... But
these things require service and its kinda why I keep her
around.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Its gone forever... I figger its common knowledge that anyone can figger out... I did not dream it up I picked it up from others and gave it a try... Bob figgerd it out this is the way to go unless you have a tar filled coil and enjoy fiddle fart'n around... There is alott of that, that goes on here...
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=737609&sid=70bd7a5135dd70a8927f1694664fe4e7
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" With all the experts that hang out here and wanna be a mechanic why do you think it takes two to 5 pages to figure out a simple points ignition issue"
Why?
Because not everyone who comes here for help is a skilled mechanic. Better TMI than assuming the guy w/ a problem understands anything about the tractor.
How many times have you seen a thread were the advice is "jump the ignition switch" and the reply is " how do I do that?"
Just a couple of days ago, a poster was checking for spark at the plug w/ a light & the key on & engine off. Said he had no spark.
Just yesterday on the other board, a poster couldn't figure out why he didn't have continuity between the rotor & cap.
Yes, I'm fully aware that I tell people how to build a clock when they ask me for the time. And it's intentional and the only criticism I get for doing that is from people who don't need my advice in the first place. And, as far as "...real world diagnostic skills...", that advice is what makes up 75% of my posts. I'd rather teach someone how to figure out what's wrong w/ their tractor than just toss out "it's the points". Even when I'd bet money that my guess would be correct.
Your time is money. You do this chit 8+ hours a day. I don't & neither do 99% of the folks who come here for help. Reading through 3 paragraphs of my advice wastes your time. Well, surprise, it's helpful to a lot of people. My thinking is teach them how to troubleshoot, not just fix that one specific problem.
If I come to NC, it will be in an 85 year old Ford w/ points...I'd say that's pretty reliable.
And I'll drink all of your PBR while I'm there.....whoopass or not.
Why?
Because not everyone who comes here for help is a skilled mechanic. Better TMI than assuming the guy w/ a problem understands anything about the tractor.
How many times have you seen a thread were the advice is "jump the ignition switch" and the reply is " how do I do that?"
Just a couple of days ago, a poster was checking for spark at the plug w/ a light & the key on & engine off. Said he had no spark.
Just yesterday on the other board, a poster couldn't figure out why he didn't have continuity between the rotor & cap.
Yes, I'm fully aware that I tell people how to build a clock when they ask me for the time. And it's intentional and the only criticism I get for doing that is from people who don't need my advice in the first place. And, as far as "...real world diagnostic skills...", that advice is what makes up 75% of my posts. I'd rather teach someone how to figure out what's wrong w/ their tractor than just toss out "it's the points". Even when I'd bet money that my guess would be correct.
Your time is money. You do this chit 8+ hours a day. I don't & neither do 99% of the folks who come here for help. Reading through 3 paragraphs of my advice wastes your time. Well, surprise, it's helpful to a lot of people. My thinking is teach them how to troubleshoot, not just fix that one specific problem.
If I come to NC, it will be in an 85 year old Ford w/ points...I'd say that's pretty reliable.
And I'll drink all of your PBR while I'm there.....whoopass or not.
it takes that long because the person at the other end of the post, the person hwo asked the question, and is holding the tools on the other end. usually knows less than zero about electronics.. or what they know is wrong. and knows little to nothing about mechanical principles.
Try to explain an electrical diagnostic procedure to a 3rd grader.... The average NON ELECTRICAL person has about that aptitude with diagnostics and electrical principles.
You tell them what to check, ask them 5 questions, and they reply back and have done something TOTALLY different, answered 1-2 questions.. usually in a manner that shows they did the test incorrectly. then you have to ask them AGAIN. While you are waiting.. someone else usually chimes in telling them to check their tire pressure.. throws the whole conversation off while the poster actually goes and checks the tire pressure.
Then you get the bad parts issue. IE.. the incorrect 4 post solenoids and whatnot.. or incorrect vregs .. the box has the right part number.. but the part is wrong.. so the test results come out skewed. may send the diagnostics down a wrong path that has to be back tracked.
How many times have you seen it here where someone is told to check a conenction, only to find out a page later they checked it byt just looking at it.. then later you find out it is loose, sparking, rusty, or has a broke wire inside a crimp connector.
that's why it takes pages to tell the average non electrically trained, non mechanically trained person how to fix anything with wires or gears.
Add to that that half of them don't want to even buy the cheap 30$ manual let alone the GOOD service manual, nor will they own an owners manual or a parts manual.
3000$ tractor is fine.. but 150$ of paper is way over the limit ?????
Then you get the urbanites that buy a tractor and own 2 screwdrivers and a 1/2" drive zipper socket set, can't even figure out where to add oil to the engine, and a VOM might as well be an alien space craft to them.
I don't do brain surgery.. if i was at an operating table and I was being told to do brain surgery via email posts from a couple doctors in india.. it would be darn frustrating for the doctors, and me.. and the patient!
Lastly.. you get the people that know WRONG information.. and you can't convince them the info is wrong.
I love the ones that think the condensor stores up the energy to make the spark, or don't know anything about resistance values. any resistor will do!
That's MUCH of the problem!
Try to explain an electrical diagnostic procedure to a 3rd grader.... The average NON ELECTRICAL person has about that aptitude with diagnostics and electrical principles.
You tell them what to check, ask them 5 questions, and they reply back and have done something TOTALLY different, answered 1-2 questions.. usually in a manner that shows they did the test incorrectly. then you have to ask them AGAIN. While you are waiting.. someone else usually chimes in telling them to check their tire pressure.. throws the whole conversation off while the poster actually goes and checks the tire pressure.
Then you get the bad parts issue. IE.. the incorrect 4 post solenoids and whatnot.. or incorrect vregs .. the box has the right part number.. but the part is wrong.. so the test results come out skewed. may send the diagnostics down a wrong path that has to be back tracked.
How many times have you seen it here where someone is told to check a conenction, only to find out a page later they checked it byt just looking at it.. then later you find out it is loose, sparking, rusty, or has a broke wire inside a crimp connector.
that's why it takes pages to tell the average non electrically trained, non mechanically trained person how to fix anything with wires or gears.
Add to that that half of them don't want to even buy the cheap 30$ manual let alone the GOOD service manual, nor will they own an owners manual or a parts manual.
3000$ tractor is fine.. but 150$ of paper is way over the limit ?????
Then you get the urbanites that buy a tractor and own 2 screwdrivers and a 1/2" drive zipper socket set, can't even figure out where to add oil to the engine, and a VOM might as well be an alien space craft to them.
I don't do brain surgery.. if i was at an operating table and I was being told to do brain surgery via email posts from a couple doctors in india.. it would be darn frustrating for the doctors, and me.. and the patient!
Lastly.. you get the people that know WRONG information.. and you can't convince them the info is wrong.
I love the ones that think the condensor stores up the energy to make the spark, or don't know anything about resistance values. any resistor will do!
That's MUCH of the problem!
Hey.. aren't you the guy that used to tell people that they shouldn't be commenting on EI if they didn't have any machines using EI? I seem to recall hearing that argument a few years back.
I also thought you got out of gasser tractors to stick with oil burners?
soundguy
I also thought you got out of gasser tractors to stick with oil burners?
soundguy
That's because I was not replying to you.. I was replying to Hobo, wasn't that plainly obvious that i was responding to a direct question he asked in a post about why it may take pages in a thread to get somewhere.
i wasn't specifically talking about you.. my post was 'in general'.
if that doesn't suit you.. fine. I'll never respond directly to help you.. that way you don't have to feel i'm not helping you... and I won't waste any time helping someone not wanting it.
i wasn't specifically talking about you.. my post was 'in general'.
if that doesn't suit you.. fine. I'll never respond directly to help you.. that way you don't have to feel i'm not helping you... and I won't waste any time helping someone not wanting it.
for my 2 cents, dont do it, like the jest of the conversations here most conversions are troublesome because they didnt address the original problem that was making for hard starting, now the tractor is modified and its twice as hard to go back and find what was causing the problem to begine with, id spend some time with your tractor and find whats wrong, clean all the electrical connections and if the wiring harness looks iffy replace it, its not that bad to buy a new one, and its pretty straight foward to install it, check your fuel system and clean the screens both in the carb and in the tank, if it has one of those add on gas filters get it off, it doesnt need it and unless the filter is designed for a riding lawn mower or a motorcycle, its restricting the gas flow on your tractor ,as most of these filters are designed to work on a presurized fuel system, your n has a gravity feed system, the points just arnt that hard to deal with if i can do it anybody can, a little timespent now diagnosing the tractor will be much better than doing a 12 volt conversion, and a ei conversion, then still having to figure out why the tractor wont start
Maybe this will help.
What brand are the points you have been using? Not very many good points makers out there anymore. Blue Streak and NAPA Eclin are the preferred ones to buy. With what you described (runs fine for a while but starts to act up several months later??) the points loosing gap may well be the problem, IE, cheap points.
I have 2 8Ns both front mount and an IH M. All three are 12 volt conversions and two of the 3 will be converted to IE this spring (if it ever gets here), the other was converted last year. Prior to the conversion I converted it to 12 volt. I also made a complete new wiring harness and rebuilt the engine and carb. So all problems except the points were fixed first. The IE does start better than the point tractors although they are both good starters. When I did the IE conversion I did replace the distributer bushings.
Last winter (year ago) I went and checked out a 4020 JD gas tractor for a friend. To start it he was rotating the dizzy then moving it back to get the power needed to run right. First order of business was fixing the battery cables. They were a mess. Then getting rid of the 15-40 oil in a tractor that was being operated in sub zero temps. As I kept trouble shooting I finally got to the distributer itself. The tractor itself had been converted to IE by a prior owner so no problem with the points. But the mechanical advance was rusted solid and the cap was warped to the point of not sealing. My friend opted to get a reman dizzy and a new cap from JD. I installed them, transferring the IE to the reman dizzy. Started the tractor, warmed it up, set the timing according to the manual. He told me last week he hasn't had any problems with it sense. He also told me that he has really gotten to where he actually checks his battery cables now.
So I'm a fan of IE but will tell you to figure out what's wrong first. If it is cheap points there is no need to replace them with more points if you want o go over to IE.
Trouble shooting while more labor intensive is way cheaper than throwing parts at it.
Rick
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" Thanks for the input. "
You're welcome. Glad to help.
And if the tractor hasn't been started in a few months, drain & replace the gas & dress the points.
Get a full charge on the battery.
Clean all the posts & grounds.
Post back w/ more questions or results.
You're welcome. Glad to help.
And if the tractor hasn't been started in a few months, drain & replace the gas & dress the points.
Get a full charge on the battery.
Clean all the posts & grounds.
Post back w/ more questions or results.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Looks like it was busy day here while I was at work.
Soundguy,
To answer your questions below:
What I said then and will say now is how and why would anyone knock EI if they haven't ever tried it?
Gassers? Diesels? I have both right now.
What difference does that make to anyone?
Lastly, Would you or anyone here mind reading over <a href="http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/nboard/messages/917271.html" target="_blank">the post I made this morning.</a>.
I trust you know more about electrics than I do.
If there is anything in my list of advantages to EI that is incorrect please let me know and I will change it before I repost it the next time this issue comes up. I do not want to be accused of posting incorrect information here.
Thanks.
Bruce,
See my reply to Soundguy.
Also,
Every time someone asks about installing EI in their tractor you are quick to suggest they stay with points. You give all your reasons for doing so and IMO almost beg them to stick with points.
Then I come along and suggest they do the switch and you and others jump on me for suggesting it.
Why?
Do I really need to completely understand electronics to recognize the benefits of EI?
Do I really need to be able to coach someone through the process to be credible?
Do I really need to spend the time coaching them?
Jmor can and has been doing it for a long time now.
He has, to his credit, made very good diagrams and written instructions.
Do I also need to draw diagrams and post written instructions to satisfy you?
I don't think I do.
Maybe in the future, when someone asks about EI you back off a little and let others here voice an opinion.
There are many threads here where someone has a spark problem that could indeed be solved by installing EI.
But to many new guys it would seem that is not allowed, or they would be stupid to.
They are made to feel compelled to go through the whole 9 yards of points and condenser, bushings, etc, etc.
Not everyone wants to do that Bruce.
Yes, some guys do want to learn.
But some folks just want to set it and forget it.
You made a comment the other day about one upsmanship.
That was very revealing to me because it showed me how you think.
But I don't think that way.
I don't care if a guy has points or EI or if he has a diesel.
But I do want him to be able to come to this board and ask about EI without you or anyone else trying their best to dissuade him from it.
I have never suggested it will solve all his electrical problems. But it can solve some spark problems.
No one is caulking this stuff up in a win/lose column.
There is no loss of face if someone opts to go EI.
No one upsmanship.
Just a good board with some good helpful people.
How about we try to keep it that way.
Soundguy,
To answer your questions below:
What I said then and will say now is how and why would anyone knock EI if they haven't ever tried it?
Gassers? Diesels? I have both right now.
What difference does that make to anyone?
Lastly, Would you or anyone here mind reading over <a href="http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/nboard/messages/917271.html" target="_blank">the post I made this morning.</a>.
I trust you know more about electrics than I do.
If there is anything in my list of advantages to EI that is incorrect please let me know and I will change it before I repost it the next time this issue comes up. I do not want to be accused of posting incorrect information here.
Thanks.
Bruce,
See my reply to Soundguy.
Also,
Every time someone asks about installing EI in their tractor you are quick to suggest they stay with points. You give all your reasons for doing so and IMO almost beg them to stick with points.
Then I come along and suggest they do the switch and you and others jump on me for suggesting it.
Why?
Do I really need to completely understand electronics to recognize the benefits of EI?
Do I really need to be able to coach someone through the process to be credible?
Do I really need to spend the time coaching them?
Jmor can and has been doing it for a long time now.
He has, to his credit, made very good diagrams and written instructions.
Do I also need to draw diagrams and post written instructions to satisfy you?
I don't think I do.
Maybe in the future, when someone asks about EI you back off a little and let others here voice an opinion.
There are many threads here where someone has a spark problem that could indeed be solved by installing EI.
But to many new guys it would seem that is not allowed, or they would be stupid to.
They are made to feel compelled to go through the whole 9 yards of points and condenser, bushings, etc, etc.
Not everyone wants to do that Bruce.
Yes, some guys do want to learn.
But some folks just want to set it and forget it.
You made a comment the other day about one upsmanship.
That was very revealing to me because it showed me how you think.
But I don't think that way.
I don't care if a guy has points or EI or if he has a diesel.
But I do want him to be able to come to this board and ask about EI without you or anyone else trying their best to dissuade him from it.
I have never suggested it will solve all his electrical problems. But it can solve some spark problems.
No one is caulking this stuff up in a win/lose column.
There is no loss of face if someone opts to go EI.
No one upsmanship.
Just a good board with some good helpful people.
How about we try to keep it that way.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You can not fix'em dog they lack basic diagnostic skills... They are the worst to bo there chest up and tell a guy go screw your self... If they would learn to ask a few basic questions but know they got to write a damm book then if they get questioned they belittle the guy... They fit in good with those N tractor nutz... I normal will ask a question if I don't get the answer I am look'n for I don't reply to him he can go chase the wind and read a book... I know this is not a professional site but I would figger sooner are later folks that read this chit every day would be willing to expand there knowledge... If I wanted to I could pick every thing they posted in this post apart but I won't I have some respect for them but not skeered to tell them what I think...
They know that and that's why they respect me even tho i don't have a shield to hide behind...
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
SorryDog, your credibility just fell completely THROUGH the shitter with this line, "I don't care if a guy has points or EI or if he has a diesel." No body beats the EI drum so very hard with a 'don't care'!!! Liar, liar pants on fire!!!
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
I'm getting tired of this.
And I suspect others are as well. I doubt if we are even providing amusement value any longer.
That being said, I won't shun the olive branch.
You ask if it's necessary to draw diagrams and " ...completely understand electronics to recognize the benefits of EI?"
No, but it would be helpful to your creditability if you would cease belittling those w/ a different viewpoint as being ignorant: "They only read it somewhere and repeated it - over and over - usually with an overly long and emotional appeal. "
Given that you do not fully grasp the fundamentals of EI, wouldn't that characterization better fit you than me?
And likewise with your continued spurious comparisons of EI in the automotive industry to EI in a 60 year old 23 HP tractor.
Suffice it to say that nearly ALL of your descriptions of EI are true. Yes, EI is superior to points.
But that is NOT what this debate is about. You may wish & hope it is, but it isn't.
The debate is about the practical application of EI in a 60+ year old tractor engine.
Want an example of how disingenuous your argument is? Just substitute " fuel injection" for EI.
Fuel injection is a clear advantage to a carb. I can come up w/ a lot of ways it's better.
Hydraulic brakes are an improvement over mechanical brakes.
Environmental friendly? Well, you could stop pulling that manual choke out 2 or 3 times & that would equal what EI does insofar as "A well tuned engine burns cleaner so unburned gas does not wash down your cylinder walls causing premature wear. Clean burning does not break down the oil as fast and cause wear."
I think you get the idea.
But I doubt you will concede the point.
So I'll sum it up:
---- Putting EI on a N series tractor will replace the points. Any other "advantages" will be miniscule.
---- if you have a well running tractor & just don't care to fool w/ points anymore, EI is a perfect alternative.
---- if you expect EI to cure any significant ignition problem you may have other than bad points, it won't.
Regarding "But I do want him to be able to come to this board and ask about EI without you or anyone else trying their best to dissuade him from it." So, may I expect you to refrain from posting a list of the benefits of EI on modern vehicles w/ the clear assumption that those benefits will apply to a 60 year old tractor?
I think I know the answer to that question.
The comments by many others in this thread can be easily summed up w/ one of my oft-repeated statements:
" The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N."
And finally you say:
" Just a good board with some good helpful people.
How about we try to keep it that way."
On that we can agree.
And I suspect others are as well. I doubt if we are even providing amusement value any longer.
That being said, I won't shun the olive branch.
You ask if it's necessary to draw diagrams and " ...completely understand electronics to recognize the benefits of EI?"
No, but it would be helpful to your creditability if you would cease belittling those w/ a different viewpoint as being ignorant: "They only read it somewhere and repeated it - over and over - usually with an overly long and emotional appeal. "
Given that you do not fully grasp the fundamentals of EI, wouldn't that characterization better fit you than me?
And likewise with your continued spurious comparisons of EI in the automotive industry to EI in a 60 year old 23 HP tractor.
Suffice it to say that nearly ALL of your descriptions of EI are true. Yes, EI is superior to points.
But that is NOT what this debate is about. You may wish & hope it is, but it isn't.
The debate is about the practical application of EI in a 60+ year old tractor engine.
Want an example of how disingenuous your argument is? Just substitute " fuel injection" for EI.
Fuel injection is a clear advantage to a carb. I can come up w/ a lot of ways it's better.
Hydraulic brakes are an improvement over mechanical brakes.
Environmental friendly? Well, you could stop pulling that manual choke out 2 or 3 times & that would equal what EI does insofar as "A well tuned engine burns cleaner so unburned gas does not wash down your cylinder walls causing premature wear. Clean burning does not break down the oil as fast and cause wear."
I think you get the idea.
But I doubt you will concede the point.
So I'll sum it up:
---- Putting EI on a N series tractor will replace the points. Any other "advantages" will be miniscule.
---- if you have a well running tractor & just don't care to fool w/ points anymore, EI is a perfect alternative.
---- if you expect EI to cure any significant ignition problem you may have other than bad points, it won't.
Regarding "But I do want him to be able to come to this board and ask about EI without you or anyone else trying their best to dissuade him from it." So, may I expect you to refrain from posting a list of the benefits of EI on modern vehicles w/ the clear assumption that those benefits will apply to a 60 year old tractor?
I think I know the answer to that question.
The comments by many others in this thread can be easily summed up w/ one of my oft-repeated statements:
" The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N."
And finally you say:
" Just a good board with some good helpful people.
How about we try to keep it that way."
On that we can agree.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Wow! I sure opened a can of worms on this one. Some of you have actually responded to my question and I appreciate it. I'm going to NAPA and get a set of blue streak points and put them in and start on item one of Bruce's suggestions and continue along until I exhaust all. If I don't find the solution to the problem I will either blow the sob up or sell it to the first idiot that is willing to offer me money for it. I've got a new John Deere that I will use in the meantime.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Looks like you took the bait this should take 5 more pages to clear it up... Throw parts at it till you exhaust all funds...
Here's a good link fill the work sheet out with year make model front are side mount distributor 6 are 12v. Then we can put all those degrees to work fer'ya...
http://www.autoservicesacramentoca.com/Files/Documents/drivabilityform.pdf
You can also google "problem solving flowchart funny" There's some good ones...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
"Looks like you took the bait this should take 5 more pages to clear it up... Throw parts at it till you exhaust all funds...
Here's a good link fill the work sheet out with year make model front are side mount distributor 6 are 12v. Then we can put all those degrees to work fer'ya...
http://www.autoservicesacramentoca.com/Files/Documents/drivabilityform.pdf
You can also google "problem solving flowchart funny" There's some good ones..."
I’m sure mrjim and others found that to be helpful.
Rather than pizzing down my leg, why don’t you actually try helping the man get his tractor running? So far you haven't done much along those lines. Clearly my over-educated under-experienced efforts haven’t met w/ your approval.
So go for it.
Here's a good link fill the work sheet out with year make model front are side mount distributor 6 are 12v. Then we can put all those degrees to work fer'ya...
http://www.autoservicesacramentoca.com/Files/Documents/drivabilityform.pdf
You can also google "problem solving flowchart funny" There's some good ones..."
I’m sure mrjim and others found that to be helpful.
Rather than pizzing down my leg, why don’t you actually try helping the man get his tractor running? So far you haven't done much along those lines. Clearly my over-educated under-experienced efforts haven’t met w/ your approval.
So go for it.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Its cuzz I don't get paid to make my best guess... Maybe you can loan me your Cristal ball...
You wrote the book and made yourself a self appointed expert. When you write a book you open yourself up for reviews...
I would have thought by now you would have wrote up a diagnostic work sheet. Maybe its because I am the first one to mention it so I give you all the royalties that come with the idea....
You wrote the book and made yourself a self appointed expert. When you write a book you open yourself up for reviews...
I would have thought by now you would have wrote up a diagnostic work sheet. Maybe its because I am the first one to mention it so I give you all the royalties that come with the idea....
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
So what you're saying is the argument will never end?
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Don't confuse this with a nit pick.. just an observation.
the 'never wear out and doesn't degrade' is technically incorrect.. however I will go along, that if the circuit is designed robustly, it SHOULD last a long time.
going from off state to on state is where your silly-con finds it's most 'wear'. IE. onstate transitions.
All that said. no, I don't find your list to be otherwise misleading .. etc. I think it's reasonable to say that the EI will require much less user service than points, assuming no polarity reversals.. or key's left on for the dumb-units that don't check.
Only reason I asked about the gas vs diesel is I recall being asked if I had an EI unit since I was commenting on one. ( this was years ago mnd you.. not anything recent )
As a parting shot.. fair or not.. I'd like to point out 2 things.
1, The average non electrically inclined user that we sometimes see here, that does not posess the skills to maintain a breaker system.. I question whether they posess the skills to install and not damage the EI itself... same could be said of genny conversions to alts. I've witnessed polarity accidents that burned up 150$ worth of ei and alternator in a second flat.
I also see many comments and situations where it is kinda obvious that the user has KILLED his EI due to ignorance and then is instructed to return it under warranty.. this puts the cost on the ei maker.. a burden they should not have to handle.. probably why ei costs so much. they have to replace many units they sell because people basically can;t understand gound planes and voltage potential differences.
and 2, and this picks up where 1 left off.. and puts a little of the burden BACK onto the seller of the EI. the instructions that are packaged that I have seen are WAY lacking.. or at least used to be. I havn't bought one recently to see if any of the ei repackagers have actually hired someone that knows anything about electronics to write them a instalation manual. smae goes for people that sell 12v alternator conversion kits. those are some of the worst chopped up instructions I have ever seen!
I think most people that have poitns issues simply have bad handling habits. dirty tools or don't have an eye for precision. I live in florida.. that's a hot humid state. if something will corode.. it will do it here. I have a ton of machines.. . I can tell you it's been a couple years since I've replaced a set of points.. and that was on a new to me machine.. and I repalce them when I buy them just because.
I can also tell you that I don't have a machine that has had more than 1 set of replacement points, once they were changed to a premium set, and not a tisco set.. and yes. tisco sets are junk.. and I have had to dink with those to get machines running.. thus I change off of them when I see them. My juniest tractor is a 950 parts machine. It's points were closed up when I bought it. i gapped it by eye and pocket knife to start it to trailer it. when it got home I gapped it with a gauge. , drug paper thru them.. and lubed the cam block.. it's on that same set.. I only open a dizzy to lube cam lobes up nowadays... I see people here continually having to reset and change points.. like hourly or monthly.. that.. is user error... either primary resistance wrong.. or bad mechanical ability is settingthe points.. or a worn out set of bushings. it's not a points error.... I'm actually amazed at the number of ignition problems that get posted here. it's astounding..... anyway.. fingers are tired now.
Soundguy
the 'never wear out and doesn't degrade' is technically incorrect.. however I will go along, that if the circuit is designed robustly, it SHOULD last a long time.
going from off state to on state is where your silly-con finds it's most 'wear'. IE. onstate transitions.
All that said. no, I don't find your list to be otherwise misleading .. etc. I think it's reasonable to say that the EI will require much less user service than points, assuming no polarity reversals.. or key's left on for the dumb-units that don't check.
Only reason I asked about the gas vs diesel is I recall being asked if I had an EI unit since I was commenting on one. ( this was years ago mnd you.. not anything recent )
As a parting shot.. fair or not.. I'd like to point out 2 things.
1, The average non electrically inclined user that we sometimes see here, that does not posess the skills to maintain a breaker system.. I question whether they posess the skills to install and not damage the EI itself... same could be said of genny conversions to alts. I've witnessed polarity accidents that burned up 150$ worth of ei and alternator in a second flat.
I also see many comments and situations where it is kinda obvious that the user has KILLED his EI due to ignorance and then is instructed to return it under warranty.. this puts the cost on the ei maker.. a burden they should not have to handle.. probably why ei costs so much. they have to replace many units they sell because people basically can;t understand gound planes and voltage potential differences.
and 2, and this picks up where 1 left off.. and puts a little of the burden BACK onto the seller of the EI. the instructions that are packaged that I have seen are WAY lacking.. or at least used to be. I havn't bought one recently to see if any of the ei repackagers have actually hired someone that knows anything about electronics to write them a instalation manual. smae goes for people that sell 12v alternator conversion kits. those are some of the worst chopped up instructions I have ever seen!
I think most people that have poitns issues simply have bad handling habits. dirty tools or don't have an eye for precision. I live in florida.. that's a hot humid state. if something will corode.. it will do it here. I have a ton of machines.. . I can tell you it's been a couple years since I've replaced a set of points.. and that was on a new to me machine.. and I repalce them when I buy them just because.
I can also tell you that I don't have a machine that has had more than 1 set of replacement points, once they were changed to a premium set, and not a tisco set.. and yes. tisco sets are junk.. and I have had to dink with those to get machines running.. thus I change off of them when I see them. My juniest tractor is a 950 parts machine. It's points were closed up when I bought it. i gapped it by eye and pocket knife to start it to trailer it. when it got home I gapped it with a gauge. , drug paper thru them.. and lubed the cam block.. it's on that same set.. I only open a dizzy to lube cam lobes up nowadays... I see people here continually having to reset and change points.. like hourly or monthly.. that.. is user error... either primary resistance wrong.. or bad mechanical ability is settingthe points.. or a worn out set of bushings. it's not a points error.... I'm actually amazed at the number of ignition problems that get posted here. it's astounding..... anyway.. fingers are tired now.
Soundguy
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I should have know better than to suggest a diagnostic work sheet... Sum'n that would at least fill in the voids, basic info you need to build a battle plan...
Y'all have got use to flying by the seat of your pants till you get lucky enuff to stumble on the problem...
You can write a book the problem is you jump all over the place and confuse the issue... Your Tips are not yours you just put them together from sources that you did not research... Some are here say that hold no weight... Of course you try and back it up saying my source has a degree...
My friend it just don't work that way if you are going out on a limb your make sure that limb will hold ya... If it don't you just have to suck it up and learn from it... I have a problem with folks when they get backed into a corner and pull out there qualification card and shake it in my face.. I can learn form anyone but when I question a question are make a statement that is debatable I don't care for the answer to be look don't question me I have a qualification card...
I admire you for taking on all comers but I do have a issue when Y'all belittle a poster because you are over qualified to play with him anymore...
You would learn from asking questions to hone your skills instead of dum'n down the poster by posting a unorganized book... You post to much info for the poster to comprehend even when he post he has excellent spark you recommend he dig into the ignition system even tho you can not confirm he has... You tell a guy the easiest thing to check is jump off yer tractor and check fuel flow... Guess whut its NOT... You know how to but are at a loss when it comes to telling him in a organized way...
In my day job if i can not communicate with the customer I can't help'em even if I gave him the book and my qualification card... I will admit when I am getting beat in the ground its eating my lunch its because I skipped are assumed a basic test. I am at the end of my rope because that basic test was not a EZ one to do now I have to go back and take the time to do it (I got lazy) ,,, 90% of the time it was the answer to my problem ,,, GRRRRRR
I still have a cold beer waiting on ya... I don't want to beat you in the ground I want you to be a better man... It pleases me to know I had something to do with it I don't care got the glory...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" So what you're saying is the argument will never end?"
As it takes two to argue, this argument can end whenever you decide to quit personalizing an insignificant & technical difference of opinion.
This entire exchange is a classic example of Sayre’s Law: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake."
Surely my explanation of EI isn’t so forceful or convincing that it’s necessary for me to “…..back off a little and let others here voice an opinion". Clearly Hobo doesn’t find my EI argument convincing either. Maybe the two of you could team up w/ the criticism & be the Siskel & Ebert of the YT board. I’m sure others will find your comments to be about as helpful & informative as I do. That would go a long way toward your goal of this being “Just a good board with some good helpful people.”
And assuming I do back off, what about the others who share my opinion? Who will be the next target of your harangues? The guys who tried EI & took it off their tractor? Or maybe the guys w/ 3 or 4 tractors & only have EI on 1 or 2? Or how about the countless others (and I’m one of them) who don’t mind annual points maintenance & have no desire to ever install EI? Or, the best one yet: the guy with EI who says his well maintained tractors w/ quality points perform no different than his one w/ EI. Will you go after some of them, all of them or will you be happy for me to just “ go quietly into the night” ?
At the clear risk of prolonging this diatribe, just what is it you expect me to say or do differently?
---- Putting EI on a N series tractor will replace the points. Any other "advantages" will be miniscule.
---- If you have a well running tractor & just don't care to fool w/ points anymore, EI is a perfect alternative.
---- If you expect EI to cure any significant ignition problem you may have other than bad points, it won't.
---- The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
As it takes two to argue, this argument can end whenever you decide to quit personalizing an insignificant & technical difference of opinion.
This entire exchange is a classic example of Sayre’s Law: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake."
Surely my explanation of EI isn’t so forceful or convincing that it’s necessary for me to “…..back off a little and let others here voice an opinion". Clearly Hobo doesn’t find my EI argument convincing either. Maybe the two of you could team up w/ the criticism & be the Siskel & Ebert of the YT board. I’m sure others will find your comments to be about as helpful & informative as I do. That would go a long way toward your goal of this being “Just a good board with some good helpful people.”
And assuming I do back off, what about the others who share my opinion? Who will be the next target of your harangues? The guys who tried EI & took it off their tractor? Or maybe the guys w/ 3 or 4 tractors & only have EI on 1 or 2? Or how about the countless others (and I’m one of them) who don’t mind annual points maintenance & have no desire to ever install EI? Or, the best one yet: the guy with EI who says his well maintained tractors w/ quality points perform no different than his one w/ EI. Will you go after some of them, all of them or will you be happy for me to just “ go quietly into the night” ?
At the clear risk of prolonging this diatribe, just what is it you expect me to say or do differently?
---- Putting EI on a N series tractor will replace the points. Any other "advantages" will be miniscule.
---- If you have a well running tractor & just don't care to fool w/ points anymore, EI is a perfect alternative.
---- If you expect EI to cure any significant ignition problem you may have other than bad points, it won't.
---- The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Just wondering how you base your opinion so bias but question those that have actually had them in there hand installed them on there tractor with success...
Y'all call those with what Y'all say limited knowledge with a 3rd grade education fools what do y'all call folks with a degree who base there opinion on those fools...
It realty does not matter to me you can keep your front row seat in front of what Y'all call 3rd graders...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" Just wondering how you base your opinion so bias but question those that have actually had them in there hand installed them on there tractor with success... "
Oh, so in order for my comments about EI to have creditability w/ you, I must have a unit installed?
You probably don’t want to get wrapped to tight to that observation for a number of reasons…….the first of which being that it’s a day late & a dollar short around this board. UD tried it w/ soundguy. Didn’t work too well when soundguy got a tractor w/ EI & let UD know that there wasn’t a difference in performance
And another reason it won’t work to well around here is plenty of other EI owners will tell you the same thing: “EI works fine, and I don’t have to change points, but it’s no better starting or running than any of the other tractors around here with points.”.
But the primary reason I can make valid comments on EI even though I don’t own a tractor w/ EI is called a prori knowledge. You do not have to observe something to determine its validity. That’s a concept most of the human race figured out in, oh, the Middle Ages. Like where does the sun go at night. Nobody saw were it went…..but they figured it out.
Oh, so in order for my comments about EI to have creditability w/ you, I must have a unit installed?
You probably don’t want to get wrapped to tight to that observation for a number of reasons…….the first of which being that it’s a day late & a dollar short around this board. UD tried it w/ soundguy. Didn’t work too well when soundguy got a tractor w/ EI & let UD know that there wasn’t a difference in performance
And another reason it won’t work to well around here is plenty of other EI owners will tell you the same thing: “EI works fine, and I don’t have to change points, but it’s no better starting or running than any of the other tractors around here with points.”.
But the primary reason I can make valid comments on EI even though I don’t own a tractor w/ EI is called a prori knowledge. You do not have to observe something to determine its validity. That’s a concept most of the human race figured out in, oh, the Middle Ages. Like where does the sun go at night. Nobody saw were it went…..but they figured it out.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Whut ever that scrambled mess means... At least the dawg did admit he did not know much about it but it damm sure works great,,, whut did he get. Y'all do your best to dumb him down... Maybe one day Y'all will get to work with a ignition scope and see what actually goes on during a firing event...
Y'all are only drumming yourself down by drumming down others...
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" Maybe one day Y'all will get to work with a ignition scope and see what actually goes on during a firing event... "
I first used an oscilloscope in 1965. You were how old then?
Next time I've got nothing to do on a rainy day, I'll fire it up.
What would you like to know?
I first used an oscilloscope in 1965. You were how old then?
Next time I've got nothing to do on a rainy day, I'll fire it up.
What would you like to know?
how quaint.
nobody has a scope but you?
I built my first scope. it was a heathkit model..
I actually hand made an attenuating probe for it for use with high voltage.
among the mundane automotive ring tests.. you could do neat things like look at colorburst of a tv signal.
Lets be reasonable. A person owning a tractor should be capable of basic maintenance. oil changes, grease fittings, cleaning electrical connections.. repalcing battery, filling radiator, airing tires and setting points.
If one has the wherewithal to set points.. one has the capability to install an EI. it's not hard either way... or should not be.
All the hi tech gizmos and gadgets that exist today.. smart phones.. realy fast computers, game systems, audio gear.. if someone can operate those.. including all the controls in their car/truck. setting a gap via feeler gauge OR slipping a hall effect switch into place.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
A inductive spike shows about 300V what does that mean...
Coil Oscillations show only two oscillations whats wrong with the coil.
Normal firing time is
The spark line indicates combustion chamber turbulence when you do not see turbulence what does it indicate.
What does indicator if the KV rises on the end of the spark line...
A lean condition will increase are decrease burn time.
If the inductive kick on one cylinder is short but all others are normal were would you look for the problem would it be inside of the cylinder are outside of the cylinder.
A ignition wave form consist of 5 parts can you name them...
If you perform a snap throttle test what are you looking for...
If I had not done all the hard work figuring out what the total amp draw should be on a coil 6 are 12V do you think you are your playpen pal bud would have ever figured it out...
I will give you credit if you can answer one they are not that EZ especially when its rare today to even hook up a scope to the ignition...
Its not were I was at in 1965 its about what I did with it once I picked it up... I don't have to wait for a rainy day its sitting in the middle of the shop ready to use. If you want to you can use old's excuse I was a expert but I forgot it...
Don't go there and belittle me with your I am smarter than you chit It shows me you are a weak man and only looking for glory... I am not the 3rd grader that you and your bud like to dumb down...
ohms law, among others figures that out...
now that right there is the funniest thing I have read in weeks! I wish i could make that a tag for my messages! I especially liked our ( Old ) EMP conversation.. I don't think he liked it very much though.....
Now that one I don't see. I honestly don't think there is a person here that does not respect you as a pro mechanic. I'd venture to say that there are none here that could question your credability. You are a pro mechanic. Anyone that knows you knows. it.
Nuff said. now lets get back to beating up the newbie tractor owners!
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" Don't go there and belittle me with your I am smarter than you chit "
Oh yea, good point.
You mean by saying things like "Maybe one day Y'all will get to work with a ignition scope and see what actually goes on during a firing event... "
But I'm tired of all of this. Got beer that needs drinking. To quote soundguy: Nuff said. now lets get back to beating up the newbie tractor owners!
Oh yea, good point.
You mean by saying things like "Maybe one day Y'all will get to work with a ignition scope and see what actually goes on during a firing event... "
But I'm tired of all of this. Got beer that needs drinking. To quote soundguy: Nuff said. now lets get back to beating up the newbie tractor owners!
I'm having trouble keeping up with you guys! Every time I go on break I look and there are more posts!
I can't hear myself think either..
in about 45m ill be off and can get home. peace and quiet. wife is out of town. all i got to do is pee the dogs, and then watch some DVD and then get up for my double tomorrow and start all over again..
At least I didn't have to fix anything today.. yesterday came in and one of the other engineers from another dept, was working in my dept and partially unpatched our 40CH digital snake.. talk about a long trouble shoot. took 30m to find.. 10 seconds to fix, then another 5m punching out some hate mail to his boss, the other dept head.
You train these young engineers on proper procedures.. and it goes in one ear and out the other... It's sad. i show up at work and if one of the young engineers is there and asks what he can do to help me I tell them that they can go home, or at least go somewhere else, other than where I am...... that would be the biggest help.. ( origin of the " quit helping me " line.. )
I can't hear myself think either..
in about 45m ill be off and can get home. peace and quiet. wife is out of town. all i got to do is pee the dogs, and then watch some DVD and then get up for my double tomorrow and start all over again..
At least I didn't have to fix anything today.. yesterday came in and one of the other engineers from another dept, was working in my dept and partially unpatched our 40CH digital snake.. talk about a long trouble shoot. took 30m to find.. 10 seconds to fix, then another 5m punching out some hate mail to his boss, the other dept head.
You train these young engineers on proper procedures.. and it goes in one ear and out the other... It's sad. i show up at work and if one of the young engineers is there and asks what he can do to help me I tell them that they can go home, or at least go somewhere else, other than where I am...... that would be the biggest help..
( origin of the " quit helping me " line.. )
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Ohms law
Certainly it does but someone had to point folks in that direction of thought... Its the simple things that get by ya... I give Don B the credit for pointing that out he was the first to push it and he totted allot of weight he just needed the push ... It does not matter how much weight you tote it will only click in the right minds...
I can get over it always have...
I wish I was as cool as Jessie it takes allot to rattle his cage...
I sure do miss DonB posting here.
Yep.. jes is a decent fellow. Ud is a decent fellow as well. Heck.. I've met quite a few people here.. so far all have actaully been pretty nice guys.
Some older members.. DaleBear, raytasche, gaspump, they are/were members of the same antique tractor club I'm in and we'd see each other at north florida shows. Another guy from talahassee I can't quite remember his name. but he went to the shows too..
Met John in LA actually IN LA. He found a tractor and helped me arange contacting the owner, even met me there when I was buying it.. super nice guy.. and darn. tall like a giant!
Just missed meeting Alan ( Texas ) by a couple hours.. he had a flight out.. but I did get to meet his family.. nice group of people.
Actually quite a decent group of people we have here.
Anywho.. my shifts over.. got to close up shop and get home and pee the pooches..
have a good un.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I am not a head hunter you know that... Like you I will get over it unless I think you are a liar... If I did I would ride your arse to the end of time.. That we have in common..
I am a social drink'er I can not hold my alcohol I tell folks I don't like myself when I drank to much and i am sure others don't either...
I am a social drink'er I can not hold my alcohol I tell folks I don't like myself when I drank to much and i am sure others don't either...
WOW did this every get out of hand.
I will say this. My IE 8N is the best starting tractor I own. But it's also one of 2 out of 5 that has a new wiring harness (other is diesel). It also has a fresh engine. This one starts on the first revolution every time. The 8N (12 volt, points) has to roll over 3-4 times before it fires.
Soundguy: I have a nephew who can do all of the maintenance on any piece of equipment they own but doesn't know how to set points or timing. He's never been around them. Everything he has worked on is factory IE or diesel. Heck they ain't even teaching carbs or points in automotive trade school anymore and haven't for some time. So there are fully qualified mechanics out there who can't do points.
Rick
I will say this. My IE 8N is the best starting tractor I own. But it's also one of 2 out of 5 that has a new wiring harness (other is diesel). It also has a fresh engine. This one starts on the first revolution every time. The 8N (12 volt, points) has to roll over 3-4 times before it fires.
Soundguy: I have a nephew who can do all of the maintenance on any piece of equipment they own but doesn't know how to set points or timing. He's never been around them. Everything he has worked on is factory IE or diesel. Heck they ain't even teaching carbs or points in automotive trade school anymore and haven't for some time. So there are fully qualified mechanics out there who can't do points.
Rick
interesting reading.
I was out using a few of my tractors and got to thinking about this thread.
I was using 2 NAA's. One with EI, one with points.
Clones really, both engines rebuilt, 12v, carbs, wiring, etc, all redone.
Both run great, the EI one starts just a bit faster, and seems a touch smoother, especially at idle.
No issues with the points one. When the good set of points in it
wear out, it'll probably get EI too.(now that the price is closer)
Just my preference. an electrical switch just seems better to me than a mechanical one. no variations. Points are ok too, but like Hobo said, from the first spark they create, they are wearing out, even if you need a microscope to see it at first.
Guess it really depends on the person. Some of us are born to be 'hotrodders'. From the first time of turning the air cleaner lid upside down on a car....we are lost.....
Everything we buy....'How can I make this thing faster, stronger, better'.........
I was out using a few of my tractors and got to thinking about this thread.
I was using 2 NAA's. One with EI, one with points.
Clones really, both engines rebuilt, 12v, carbs, wiring, etc, all redone.
Both run great, the EI one starts just a bit faster, and seems a touch smoother, especially at idle.
No issues with the points one. When the good set of points in it
wear out, it'll probably get EI too.(now that the price is closer)
Just my preference. an electrical switch just seems better to me than a mechanical one. no variations. Points are ok too, but like Hobo said, from the first spark they create, they are wearing out, even if you need a microscope to see it at first.
Guess it really depends on the person. Some of us are born to be 'hotrodders'. From the first time of turning the air cleaner lid upside down on a car....we are lost.....
Everything we buy....'How can I make this thing faster, stronger, better'.........
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
A priori??
Good grief.
So now we're going to go off on a philosophy tangent to support our notions on points.
I wonder what Schopenhauer had to say about points. Or Kierkegaard or Hegel had to say about EI.
I'm thinking someone pulled That one from their
a posterori.
[i:654c4848f0]"Didn’t work too well when soundguy got a tractor w/ EI & let UD know that there wasn’t a difference in performance"[/i:654c4848f0]
Not knocking Soundguy here but does his word alone settle the issue for you?
If so then since we're dragging the philosophers into this maybe I should throw in Spencer's great quip:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Good grief.
So now we're going to go off on a philosophy tangent to support our notions on points.
I wonder what Schopenhauer had to say about points. Or Kierkegaard or Hegel had to say about EI.
I'm thinking someone pulled That one from their
a posterori.
[i:654c4848f0]"Didn’t work too well when soundguy got a tractor w/ EI & let UD know that there wasn’t a difference in performance"[/i:654c4848f0]
Not knocking Soundguy here but does his word alone settle the issue for you?
If so then since we're dragging the philosophers into this maybe I should throw in Spencer's great quip:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Perhaps overly simplistic, but I view the EI / conventional points decision much like paint schemes. My tractor, my elbow grease, my dollars, thus my decision.
I can't draw up a paper on the mechanics and science of either. Just as I can't do so for an air conditioner in my automobile, But, I can still make use of the technology, new or old.
I have used both EI and points. I felt each had an advantage for the particular tractor in question. That said, either would have worked. There was value in all the advise offered me, pro vs con. But, I do weed out the emotion and don't really pay any heed to how someone feels about my final decision.
....and I'm not telling what I am running now!! :wink: :lol:
I can't draw up a paper on the mechanics and science of either. Just as I can't do so for an air conditioner in my automobile, But, I can still make use of the technology, new or old.
I have used both EI and points. I felt each had an advantage for the particular tractor in question. That said, either would have worked. There was value in all the advise offered me, pro vs con. But, I do weed out the emotion and don't really pay any heed to how someone feels about my final decision.
....and I'm not telling what I am running now!! :wink: :lol:
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" I don't like myself when I drank to much..."
Well, I liked myself very much WHILE I was drinking too much!
It was afterwards when the cell phone video of my signing & dancing was available that I began to dislike my self.
Not pretty........
Well, I liked myself very much WHILE I was drinking too much!
It was afterwards when the cell phone video of my signing & dancing was available that I began to dislike my self.
Not pretty........
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" So now we're going to go off on a philosophy tangent to support our notions on points. "
I see you read my reply. Too bad you didn't understand the context in which it was given.
I was asked how I could understand EI w/o owning a unit. The reply was "from a prioi knowledge".
" I wonder what Schopenhauer had to say about points. " Nothing directly, (I think he used the vibrator coil ignition like on the T model Ford) but he had a lot to say about eristic arguments. You know, arguing for the sake of arguing.
Might be something you want to think about.
" Not knocking Soundguy here but does his word alone settle the issue for you? " Well no, but it sure helps that he is but one of many who said the same thing.
" "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Now that's one I like. Hadn't heard that one before now.
It's probably time for you to shovel snow & I know I need to get potatoes in the ground.
I see you read my reply. Too bad you didn't understand the context in which it was given.
I was asked how I could understand EI w/o owning a unit. The reply was "from a prioi knowledge".
" I wonder what Schopenhauer had to say about points. " Nothing directly, (I think he used the vibrator coil ignition like on the T model Ford) but he had a lot to say about eristic arguments. You know, arguing for the sake of arguing.
Might be something you want to think about.
" Not knocking Soundguy here but does his word alone settle the issue for you? " Well no, but it sure helps that he is but one of many who said the same thing.
" "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Now that's one I like. Hadn't heard that one before now.
It's probably time for you to shovel snow & I know I need to get potatoes in the ground.
ot that you would have anyway, but at least you won't have time to pull out the 'little book of quotations' & 'impress' the throngs with your intellectual prowess. :wink:(quoted from post at 12:21:05 04/05/14) and I'm back pulling a double because one of the young'ns didn't want to show up for work.
except that if all i have is bs, i dont want to post it... this forum is about helping.. not just posting. if i dont have usefull experience or at least something to back up a comment or theory, i prefer to not post, unless i'm just admireing a nice paint job or something
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You picked the wrong hat... "When your arse is backed into a corner BS your way out of it with wisearse quotes"...
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
It would be rare you would see them in a shop anymore. If you do its some old chit you have to work on with white gloves, keep in the dry and up high on a lift so your shop cat want walk on it... You pizz away a good amount of time modifying parts are looking for a part that will fit all the customized intakes and valve covers they come up with... If you learned them it would be on your own... Its best to let someone else have all the glory and spend your time on jobs that are profitable... You also have to deal with all the offshore repop junk that don't fit... If you get a defective part those specialty part houses are good to take it back and give you a store credit hoping you forget about it... That reminds me I sent back a defective wiper switch to Zip corvette in January and have not see a credit on my bank statement...
I look at it this way if I am gonna marry it I would like a new model if i have to marry a old model i want a owner that afford to keep me up...
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