Points vs. Electronic Ignition

[Anonymous-0]

I converted my 640 to EI years ago, and I like it fine.
That said, I have read claims about electronic igniton starting better than points. years ago Hot Rod did an article on points versus electronic ignition and they found NO difference in performance but did admit points would eventually degrade.
They both use a coil for the power source,so where does this benefit come from? If a points distributor is brand new and adjusted properly I wonder if there is a difference?

 

[garytomaszewski]

I always wonder if an old worn point/condenser aren't being compared to the fresh electronic ignition. Sometimes the wider plug gap and a hotter coil could make some difference. Most of mine are mag fired so I really have no basis other than new cars are way less trouble UNTIL the electronics get sick.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:11:04 02/28/09) I converted my 640 to EI years ago, and I like it fine.
That said, I have read claims about electronic igniton starting better than points. years ago Hot Rod did an article on points versus electronic ignition and they found NO difference in performance but did admit points would eventually degrade.
They both use a coil for the power source,so where does this benefit come from? If a points distributor is brand new and adjusted properly I wonder if there is a difference?

In it's simplest form on an old tractor , keeping all other components the same, the answer is 'not much', BUT.....it does open other doors. Points are pretty much limited to about 4 amperes of coil current & if you change to electronic switch in place of points, then coil current remains the same, BUT now the door is open to a NEW coil that runs a higher current & thus higher spark energy, since the EI unit can be designed to switch perhaps 10 or 20 or more amperes of current. The switch is much faster, so the energy that is lost in the arc across opening points is no longer as great, so a bit more is available to the plugs. In more complex design such as Delco's HEI & no doubt many of today's designs, integrated circuits offer other niceties, such as automatically adjusted dwell maximization as a function of RPM, current limiting so as to reduce wasted power at low speeds, where with the points system dwell would be longer than coil charging time, and cutting back current when key is left on and system detects that engine is no longer running. Can be designed to control current such that a ballast resistor is not needed. Since there are no mechanical wear points, the dwell and timing do not change as they do as point assemblies wear. Some dispense with the condenser (but not all). The faster rise-time (sharp leading edge of the spark waveform can fire a plug that is more degraded (partially fouled) than can the slower edge of a conventional system (Capacitive discharge systems are bet in this respect--fastest edge). And there are probably other benefits that I can't think of at the moment,............................ HOWEVER, not to be carried away, we must not forget the old "no free lunch" line. Some might and have said, that such conversion is accompanied with the tossing out of a simple, easy to understand, easy to repair, low part count, inexpensive system (thank you, Mr. Kettering), with a complex, difficult to understand, non-repairable, high part count, expensive system. If stranded in a field, a mile from the barn, losing daylight fast, as the storm approaches, etc., you might be glad that you , with your pocket knife are able to get the old girl running again.
There is something here for everyone.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 21:18:31 02/28/09)

(quoted from post at 20:11:04 02/28/09) I converted my 640 to EI years ago, and I like it fine.
That said, I have read claims about electronic igniton starting better than points. years ago Hot Rod did an article on points versus electronic ignition and they found NO difference in performance but did admit points would eventually degrade.
They both use a coil for the power source,so where does this benefit come from? If a points distributor is brand new and adjusted properly I wonder if there is a difference?

In it's simplest form on an old tractor , keeping all other components the same, the answer is 'not much', BUT.....it does open other doors. Points are pretty much limited to about 4 amperes of coil current & if you change to electronic switch in place of points, then coil current remains the same, BUT now the door is open to a NEW coil that runs a higher current & thus higher spark energy, since the EI unit can be designed to switch perhaps 10 or 20 or more amperes of current. The switch is much faster, so the energy that is lost in the arc across opening points is no longer as great, so a bit more is available to the plugs. In more complex design such as Delco's HEI & no doubt many of today's designs, integrated circuits offer other niceties, such as automatically adjusted dwell maximization as a function of RPM, current limiting so as to reduce wasted power at low speeds, where with the points system dwell would be longer than coil charging time, and cutting back current when key is left on and system detects that engine is no longer running. Can be designed to control current such that a ballast resistor is not needed. Since there are no mechanical wear points, the dwell and timing do not change as they do as point assemblies wear. Some dispense with the condenser (but not all). The faster rise-time (sharp leading edge of the spark waveform can fire a plug that is more degraded (partially fouled) than can the slower edge of a conventional system (Capacitive discharge systems are bet in this respect--fastest edge). And there are probably other benefits that I can't think of at the moment,............................ HOWEVER, not to be carried away, we must not forget the old "no free lunch" line. Some might and have said, that such conversion is accompanied with the tossing out of a simple, easy to understand, easy to repair, low part count, inexpensive system (thank you, Mr. Kettering), with a complex, difficult to understand, non-repairable, high part count, expensive system. If stranded in a field, a mile from the barn, losing daylight fast, as the storm approaches, etc., you might be glad that you , with your pocket knife are able to get the old girl running again.
There is something here for everyone.

VERY GOOD POST, JMOR!!!!!!

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 21:34:01 02/28/09)

(quoted from post at 21:18:31 02/28/09)

(quoted from post at 20:11:04 02/28/09) I converted my 640 to EI years ago, and I like it fine.
That said, I have read claims about electronic igniton starting better than points. years ago Hot Rod did an article on points versus electronic ignition and they found NO difference in performance but did admit points would eventually degrade.
They both use a coil for the power source,so where does this benefit come from? If a points distributor is brand new and adjusted properly I wonder if there is a difference?

In it's simplest form on an old tractor , keeping all other components the same, the answer is 'not much', BUT.....it does open other doors. Points are pretty much limited to about 4 amperes of coil current & if you change to electronic switch in place of points, then coil current remains the same, BUT now the door is open to a NEW coil that runs a higher current & thus higher spark energy, since the EI unit can be designed to switch perhaps 10 or 20 or more amperes of current. The switch is much faster, so the energy that is lost in the arc across opening points is no longer as great, so a bit more is available to the plugs. In more complex design such as Delco's HEI & no doubt many of today's designs, integrated circuits offer other niceties, such as automatically adjusted dwell maximization as a function of RPM, current limiting so as to reduce wasted power at low speeds, where with the points system dwell would be longer than coil charging time, and cutting back current when key is left on and system detects that engine is no longer running. Can be designed to control current such that a ballast resistor is not needed. Since there are no mechanical wear points, the dwell and timing do not change as they do as point assemblies wear. Some dispense with the condenser (but not all). The faster rise-time (sharp leading edge of the spark waveform can fire a plug that is more degraded (partially fouled) than can the slower edge of a conventional system (Capacitive discharge systems are bet in this respect--fastest edge). And there are probably other benefits that I can't think of at the moment,............................ HOWEVER, not to be carried away, we must not forget the old "no free lunch" line. Some might and have said, that such conversion is accompanied with the tossing out of a simple, easy to understand, easy to repair, low part count, inexpensive system (thank you, Mr. Kettering), with a complex, difficult to understand, non-repairable, high part count, expensive system. If stranded in a field, a mile from the barn, losing daylight fast, as the storm approaches, etc., you might be glad that you , with your pocket knife are able to get the old girl running again.
There is something here for everyone.

VERY GOOD POST, JMOR!!!!!!

Thank you, Mr. Dunk, sir! 8)

 

[Jerry/MT]

In my opinion, the main advantage to the electronic ignitions available for these old tractors comes from the fact that the ignition performance does not degrade and require maintenance as do point igniton systems.

We often hear claims of "more power", etc but those are comparisons of degraded point ignition sytems versus an electronic ignitons so they are apples an oranges comparisons. There is no engine performance advantage between the two except relaibility.
Now you can as JMOR suggests, put hotter coils and possibly more primary current that would allow a wider spark gap better and high rpm spark performance but you'll get no more power out of the engine unless it misses with a standard ignition sytem and doesn't with an electronic ignition-again an appples and orange comparison.
But since we are talking about tractor engines, your rpm's are limited to the 2200 rpm range, dwell time(the time increment that the points are closed) reduction is not a problem with these engines.
My experience with electronic ignition is that my TO-30 starts regardless of the Montana weather on our ranch WITHOUT necessitating any maintenance of the ignition system other than changing spark plugs.

 

[Dunk]

All that I really KNOW is that my '49 8N front mount, thumps, period, with a set of points and they last for about 5 years.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Great explanation! Tnx. I usually don't get past cost vs. benefit in my analysis!

 

[Hobo,NC]

Some might and have said, that such conversion is accompanied with the tossing out of a simple, easy to understand, easy to repair, low part count, inexpensive system

Mite have been true at one time but not 2 day

Mite have been true when a high school boy could keep his ride going with no help,,,, its not going to happen much today,,, most folks are lost with either system,,, EI is a simple system, EZ to check and cheap also,,, you got mail

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 23:08:47 02/28/09)


Some might and have said, that such conversion is accompanied with the tossing out of a simple, easy to understand, easy to repair, low part count, inexpensive system

Mite have been true at one time but not 2 day

Mite have been true when a high school boy could keep his ride going with no help,,,, its not going to happen much today,,, most folks are lost with either system,,, EI is a simple system, EZ to check and cheap also,,, you got mail

Carbon (CC) me on that email, Hobo!!!!

 

[Ultradog MN]

Jmor,
Great post!
I can't tell you my coulombs from my conductivity.
I will tell you that EI has made the difference between my tractor starting at - 5 degrees and
- 15 degrees. Whatever battery power remains at those temps you better not waste coughing for a spark. They start noticeably faster with EI in Cold temps. I can't tell you why.
Below -15 I haven't had the stones or the cruelty to start the old girl.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 22:45:24 02/28/09) In my opinion, the main advantage to the electronic ignitions available for these old tractors comes from the fact that the ignition performance does not degrade and require maintenance as do point igniton systems.

We often hear claims of "more power", etc but those are comparisons of degraded point ignition sytems versus an electronic ignitons so they are apples an oranges comparisons. There is no engine performance advantage between the two except relaibility.
Now you can as JMOR suggests, put hotter coils and possibly more primary current that would allow a wider spark gap better and high rpm spark performance but you'll get no more power out of the engine unless it misses with a standard ignition sytem and doesn't with an electronic ignition-again an appples and orange comparison.
But since we are talking about tractor engines, your rpm's are limited to the 2200 rpm range, dwell time(the time increment that the points are closed) reduction is not a problem with these engines.
My experience with electronic ignition is that my TO-30 starts regardless of the Montana weather on our ranch WITHOUT necessitating any maintenance of the ignition system other than changing spark plugs.

Jerry, we sometimes can only agree to disagree, but here we don't need to reach that point. You said, "In my opinion, the main advantage to the electronic ignitions available for these old tractors comes from the fact that the ignition performance does not degrade and require maintenance as do point igniton systems. " I said, "Since there are no mechanical wear points, the dwell and timing do not change as they do as point assemblies wear."
I believe we about have it nailed as far as these old & slow engines are concerned.
Cheers!

 

[souNdguy]

the coil is not the power source.. the battery is.. that's why it's called battery ignition.. as opposed to magneto ignition.. in any case.. it's motive electrons.

spark voltage is controlled by power vailable, and the coil, AND the spark gap... no matter how much power and coil are available.. as soom as secondary voltage potential reaches a level that it can jump the gap under compression.. that is what you have .. thus to get more spark potential.. you have to widen the gap..AND have the other components that are capable to work with that wider gap.. etc..

soundguy

 

[Anonymous-0]

My tractor has been running on the same points and condenser for 22 years.Point gap is checked when spring work starts.I have had the engine shut down twice.Once while idling, another time while baling hay.I watched the ammeter while trying to restart and saw that the points were not making contact.A bit of cleaning point surfaces with my pocket knife fixed the problem.Leave your ignition alone.If you have a good condenser the points will last for many hours.I was at a gun show talking with a fellow.He asked if there was an auto parts shop close by.His late model Ford truck was on its 4th ignition module.My 77 chevy started fine one morning then stalled .I found I had no spark.Looked under the bench and found a distributor,pulled the module and got the truck running again.Out on the road I would have been in trouble.My 96 Ford pick up has 13 pages of electrical diagrams.It took me a long time to find the blower motor resistor when it lost low and medium speeds.A fellow said it cost him 300 bucks to get the same problem fixed at a Ford dealer.A new resistor cost me 16 bucks.Its not a hard change out.My wifes Mercury had the same problem.She traded it in so i didnt have to fix that one.If you lose a 100 buck module during haying you will lose the hay.With the high cost of twine and gas theres little money to buy 100 buck parts.I have a spare set of points and condenser for my tractor.Cost 3.50 years ago.

 

[Tom N MS]

Well said..don't get any simpler than points. They work, so why go with modern high priced gizmos..In the field if it quits because of points, you will be able to clean them up enough to get out of the field..Condensers seldom go bad..EI you are stuck till you get another one at many times the cost of points..But on the other hand as long as there are at least two on earth you will have many different opinions so that's why they make points and they also make EI modules..To each his own.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Did you read my post?

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 01:11:04 03/01/09) I converted my 640 to EI years ago, and I like it fine.
That said, I have read claims about electronic igniton starting better than points. years ago Hot Rod did an article on points versus electronic ignition and they found NO difference in performance but did admit points would eventually degrade.
They both use a coil for the power source,so where does this benefit come from? If a points distributor is brand new and adjusted properly I wonder if there is a difference?

I wonder how many of Y'all guys have driven yer vehicle 100,000 miles before you did a tune up,,, convert it to hours,,, 60 into 100,000

My self I would like to see EI banded,,, with points you would have been in my shop at least 5 times for a tune up :lol: I don't see were the low RPM thang is a tool to use again EI,,, most engines today cruise around 1500 RPM all day long and rarely see RPMs above 3K,,, A HEI GM ignition module is only about $16,,, a good set of points from NAPA is $30.

As JMOR pointed out it has alot to do with how efficient the turn on/off time is

36 coupe replacing the blower resistor and blower motor on a jeep grand cherokee will cost ya $800/1000,,, the dash has to B removed to git at the resistor and to git at the blower motor once the dash is removed the heater AC box has to come out,,, most folks would have been happy to get out for $300,,, Once ford/GM remotely mounted the ignition module it pretty much became trouble free,,, heat was the killer,,, on the early ford modules the cheap factor was the problem,,, never had to replace a good Motorola module,,, Motorola $125,,, cheap $30

 

[NOXJohn]

I have kept the points ignition on both of my N's for the 20+ years I have owned an N. I see no advantage of EI over points unless you can not get good points. However, I am considering going to an EI only due to the quality of points available. The local TSC points only last a month or less. If I get a better grade from Nappa (if they have them) or on line they have lasted 2 years. Ten years ago a set from my local ag store would last years. I now keep two spare sets for both my front mount and side mount. If the available local quality continues to degrade and I have difficulty getting points that will last for more then a year then I will install EI. Nothing pi$$es me off more then having snow to plow or grass to mow and the tractor will not start because the cheap rubbing block has worn down and the points have closed up.

 

[souNdguy]

Yes I did.. did you read mine?

You said the coil was the source of the power.. it is NOT... a couple is just a few turns of wire... the battery is the power source in this system we are discussing. I was clarifying that for archive purposes when in 3 years some newbie reads that archived post and thinks his coil is the power source for his tractor...

soundguy

 

[Jerry/MT]

JMOR,

What's more amazing to me is that this discussion regarding EI versus points seems to continue ad nauseum. I also don't understand why some people seem to take great offense (or get defensive) at someone making a decision to go to EI.

I think they are both Kettering type igniton sytems(using a switch to collapse a field in an induction coil to generate a high voltage that causes a spark to jump a gap). The only difference is what we use for the "switch" and the capacitance (I'm presuming there is some capacitance in the EI.), points and condensor or solid state electronics.

I'm kinda glad I have EI after I hear all the stories about point problems that we ever used to have in " the old days";poor quality and cheap manufacuring, no quality control etc. It sounds like points are even a bigger PITA the they used to be.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:43:34 03/01/09) JMOR,

What's more amazing to me is that this discussion regarding EI versus points seems to continue ad nauseum. I also don't understand why some people seem to take great offense (or get defensive) at someone making a decision to go to EI.

I think they are both Kettering type igniton sytems(using a switch to collapse a field in an induction coil to generate a high voltage that causes a spark to jump a gap). The only difference is what we use for the "switch" and the capacitance (I'm presuming there is some capacitance in the EI.), points and condensor or solid state electronics.

I'm kinda glad I have EI after I hear all the stories about point problems that we ever used to have in " the old days";poor quality and cheap manufacuring, no quality control etc. It sounds like points are even a bigger PITA the they used to be.

Regards,
Jerry

I believe you are right about parts quality. But if one looks hare enough and is willing to pay $15 instead of $5 for a good set, they can still be had. EI vs points...well, I'm comfortable with either one. Use both here.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 07:42:43 03/01/09) the coil is not the power source.. the battery is.. that's why it's called battery ignition.. as opposed to magneto ignition.. in any case.. it's motive electrons.

spark voltage is controlled by power vailable, and the coil, AND the spark gap... no matter how much power and coil are available.. as soom as secondary voltage potential reaches a level that it can jump the gap under compression.. that is what you have .. thus to get more spark potential.. you have to widen the gap..AND have the other components that are capable to work with that wider gap.. etc..

soundguy

OK lets say i hook up my scope,,, I see 7KV at idle then do a snap throttle test WOW :!: the KV jumped to 20K,,, Whats up with this did the gap somehow widen its self momentarily

Myself I would not widen the plug gap less the EI manufacture told me to do so in writing

Wide plug gaps and higher Kv out put from HEI was designed to fire off lean air fuel mixtures and reduce emissions

current limit circuits are built into most EI modules so no external resistor is needed,,, I am not sure how the tractor EI set ups limit current

 

[Bob]

Open throttle = more complete cylinder filling = higher compression = more KV's have to build up before plug "fires".

Happens with almost any engine.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 23:15:30 03/01/09) Open throttle = more complete cylinder filling = higher compression = more KV's have to build up before plug "fires".

Happens with almost any engine.

I was debating the answer sounder gave ''to get more spark you have to widen the gap"

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto know/Ignition/burn time.html

 

[Anonymous-0]

You are splitting hairs. When the points open,the coils magnetic field collapses and provides the kilovolts that make the spark.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 19:45:04 03/01/09) You are splitting hairs. When the points open,the coils magnetic field collapses and provides the kilovolts that make the spark.

Back in my youth, 10 to 15 years old, I used to love to split hairs, made some dayum good dumplings they did!!!

With that 16 ga Stevens double barrel of my grandad's it was hard to miss.

 

[souNdguy]

And that magnetic field came from where? primary current.. from the battery. some hairs are big enough to split.. this one for clarification purposees seemed sufficiently thick.

soundguy

 

[gahorN]

Why is it that my cheap TSC ignition parts are still workiN after 9 years without any tune ups at all? Have I gotten a bad deal? Where are my deserved failures to frustrate me into spending a rediculous amount of money on EI that can't be easily or cheaply fixed when it craps out?

I guess Henry dident realize what an idiot he was to make this thing with an ignition point system. Good thing he's dead, so we don't all hang him for stickiN points in this thing!

Maybe I shouldn't have put real cam-grease on my points rubbing block so I could be as frustrated and not understanding the complicated points system as some "profeshunals" are. (Don't get your pantees in a waad. I'm just ribbiN you EI guys!" :lol:

 

[Hobo,NC]

Yer not going soft on use are ya

 

[souNdguy]

For steady state, all the time more kv of spark. the gap would be wider.. since I mentioned compression as a variable I firgured that was a give-me.. if more aircharge inthe cyl.. more resistance to jump thru.. thus higher KV. neither of us is wrong... just playing with different variables to get the same effect.

soundguy

 

[Anonymous-0]

The blower motor resistor on my pickup is in plain sight, no problem to change .Friend had a couple of jeeps.I helped with a lot of repairs.I would not take a jeep as a gift.Junk..