Pole barn pad / excavation

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
This time I get to spend the household $$'s. Atleast that's what the wife says(grin).

We're going to put up a 30' X 50' pole barn.
The 30' will be on the east/west.
The 50' will be on the north/south.
The north west corner is the high spot.
The south east corner is the low spot, about 24" lower. All fill will be trucked in.

I've narrowed it down to 2 excavators to do the pad. Both will strip off top soil, put it off to the side for finish landscaping.

One will bring in dirt/clay for most of the fill and give me a 6" gravel top, road mix, 3/4" minus. The other will bring in all road mix, 3/4" minus. There is about a $1000 price difference tween the two.

Hopefully next summer it gets a concrete floor and electric.

Which would you pick and a brief explaination why would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Regards......don t. .....
 
The cheaper one...Either method is fine...although make sure they compact it good. vibratory compaction in 8"-12" lifts. If you want to be sure of adequate compaction hire a Geotechinal Engineer to test the compaction...probably cost 2,500 extra.
 


Don t,
Which side are the doors going open on ?
For weather protection east is the side of
choice followed by south ,never on the north
or west. If you are putting doors on the south
you don't need to haul fill, make a cut to
level the floor and use the material to build
a flat on the lower side in front of the doors.
Cut diversion on deep sides or build lower
section out of block. I was in the dirt business
for many years.

george
 
For that amount, I'd stay with the crusher run and skip the clay dirt fill unless you know what he is bringing and it is known to compact and is load bearing, most likely the quarry material has already been tested and or is accepted like it is here for road sub-base. I like the sure thing at that price, money well spent and definitely not overkill.
 
There will be an 8' X 10' wide roll up door on the west side.
A full size slider (10' X 10') on the east side.
FWIW....one service door by the n.w corner on the 50' side.
Regards.....don t. .....
 
i work for an excavating company and george md is Dead on. Do what he says, it'll save you some time and money. Also, no offense, but geotechs are a waste of time and money. The only ones that actually know what they're doing are the ones that never need to test. It's either packed or its not, and testing to prove that is simply an excuse to charge big bucks for something unnecessary.
 
I'll disagree to a certain extent, I worked in the excavation field as an operator for a number of years in my construction career, from residential subdivisions to high rises in NYC.

For a pole barn with a known material, even like run of bank gravel or quarry material like crusher run, using 12" lifts and a heavy vibratory roller is fine, (make sure to clear and grade the site of top soil first) + with the lead time he mentioned prior to placing a slab, it should be no problem there, 1 year to settle. Unless there is underlying geological issues that are unforseen under the site, it should be fine. A known material with the right moisture content will compact at least 95% or better. I've seen higher readings than that with some materials and have also done the key ways of earthen dams that required 100% compaction myself, with a D5 cat and tow behind vibratory roller, using suitable fill.

On more complex jobs, as well as certain local municipalities, say for example; city of ny dept of buildings, every fill lift is tested, and recorded by an independent testing lab, and signed off by a licensed P.E. on a report TR-1 form, on every job a permit is granted for, or you will be in violation, that could easily mean removal of the work. NYC requires controlled inspections throughout the various stages of construction while constructing any building, highway or utility work. I cannot imagine doing work without testing in that area, you would have new buildings and highways failing left and right if left to contractors, even self certifications are a problem there, this kind of keeps suppliers and contractors in check and protects owners.

I'll agree that it's not a necessary thing when you have known good materials and qualified people doing the work, I've done plenty as an operator myself, with no testing needed.

I'd have concrete test cylinders taken if I was doing any structural concrete, even a home foundation, same with fill compaction if it was anything of quantity, say just a few lifts in a few locations, that Troxler Nuclear Density Meter sure does a nice job, density, compaction and moisture, couple of tests can't be that much, and if the material is uniform, most likely it's good from that source, though optimum moisture does need to be monitored.

When doing certain type projects under different circumstances, and something fails, where is the back up, documentation or supporting test reports if no tests are done at the time the work was performed, say like concrete, naaww no need to take test cylinders, the wall or pier fails under a load, and there is no documentation, leaves the contractor or owner wide open for a claim. Well you get into forensics, can do a windsor probe for concrete after the fact, but soil work may be hidden or inaccessible.

On private work, you can obviously do as you like within the applicable codes, but if you are spending a serious amount of money, the costs associated with independent, controlled testing are trivial if a claim ever arises from faulty or defective materials. Not trying to lecture or argue or be a thorn in anyones side here, my intent is to help or share knowledge, (I get carried away sometimes especially when home on doctors orders like today) but a good testing firm, with good field inspectors can be a requirement, or just money well spent to avoid bad situations. I've had testing lab inspectors root out defective or missing reinforcing in a form that I missed,(have photos of this too) same inspector also stopped the contractor and made them correct the work in the middle of the pour or have it rejected and re-done at their cost, not all are as you suggest, I like the ones that don't take crap from contractors, had that structural component failed, it could have caused a building to collapse and opened the door to for people like myself to be liable, simply put that inspector taking test cylinders and inspecting the form, and comparing the work to the approved shop drawings, did his job correctly.

Now look at it this way, say contractor B on this job is awarded the contract at $1000 dollar savings to the owner, to provide the clay/gravel/loam or what have you, a type of unknown fill, say it's spoil off another job or unsuitable, or who knows, the owner may not be aware of it, contractor places and compacts the material, it looks good but is not sound, a year later slab is placed, it settles or fails sometime after. Now what, you have a serious claim that becomes a mess in short order, yeah you can determine that the fill is unsuitable, but now the contractor is gone, you paid him, he's out of business or will fight you. You still have to pay for dispute resolution if it goes to litigation, have to pay to correct and re-do all the defective work, vs., whoa buddy, (at the time it's being done) this fill is unsuitable, take it out, reject now before the rest happens as mentioned above, pay now or pay a lot more later.

I see these kind of thigs happen all the time, concrete wall fails, blame game.... yup was the excavtors fault, he backfilled too close too soon, well did anyone inspect the form for reinforcing, did anyone test the mix with test cylinders, and what were the breaks, was it reinforced correctly, did someone authorize the excavator to backfill too soon or was the mix design just defective ??? Those testing outfits are there to verify that things are what they are supposed to be and provide the owner with documentation stating such.

I hate seeing an owner get taken, yet it happens all the time, not everyone is savvy to sound construction practice, management etc., they trust the contractors to provide a good faith effort to adhere to methods that foster good workmanship, yet we all know there are those contractors who don't do work to industry standards and leave owners hanging, due to poor qualifications, education, ability or plain ignorance, that is exactly why you have construction managers to represent owners and their interests, as well as testing labs too, they do serve a purpose.
 
You make a good point Billy, That bank run clay would need a proctor test done on it to determine maximum density...may be more time and money than going with the material with engineered gradation and known max. density.
 
Yes, the ole 3 point proctor is what would tell you, you don't see those much anymore, they all have those density meters. Unless I knew the material, I would not chance it, best to get down to undisturbed and build up with something that has suitable qualities to it like a good gravel or a crusher run like our item #4, forget the percent passing on it, but d.o.t approves it from most quarries.

For example, there is plenty of r.o.b. gravel material in this area, screened or unscreened, that will provide a structural base and would not concern me in the least to place and compact with a vibratory roller, to support a concrete slab. The loads may not be significant, but say he wants to run a decent size crawler in there, or some large tractors point loading the slab with their tires, if that less expensive or unknown material fails, savings just went flying out the window when the concrete fails with it.

Soils where I live have a composite mixture, some clay, some loam, gravel, sand, covers the array of seive sizes, and does pack in fine, probably 3-4 ton material, where you could top off with crusher run or a typical r.o.b gravel for sub-base under a slab, but too much moisture and it may not be suitable, it's glacial till, some is just all gravel, lot of round rock, (bones) lot of homes are built on areas that could have been mined for the material it's so nice, others perk well, but have more clay, just depends on where you are, best to go with the sure thing when building.
 
The main purpose of the new barn will be vehicle storage, boat storage and a work shop area. The heavyest, maybe 5000 lbs?

While im not in construction, I do have semi-serious weekend warrior DIY projects under my belt. In no way do I think im "Bob Vila" (big grin). I do know my limitations. I've read/been told you need a 4" minimum compacted base under a concrete slab. My experiences w/concrete, which isn't much, have lead me to believe you need a min of 6-8" for a stable base. Im thinking that a 1500 sq. foot slab, probably 4" fiber inforced, needs more than the 6-8". Everone I've talked to says (for the most part) do not lay concrete this year, and I totally agree.

Then you have the other side of the coin that says $1000 is more than 1/3 the cost of adding electric this year. While it would be nice, I do not need electric this year. I have a gas powered genny (8500 w) I could use. I also have 60a to another outbuilding that is 60' away. Permenent power to the new will not be run from the existing building. It will be ran from the main panel in the house, but that's a whole other topic.

Since moving to my current house, I've learned that cheaping-out from the start isn't always the best way to go. What's the phrase....YMMV.

Thanks again for your time. I do appreciate it.

Have fun......don t. ....
 
One thing with any type of construction, lowest bid is not always best, you really have to look at the scope of work and review all the details to see what is what and how it effects the job.

Things that seem cut and dry, black and white, are not often the case, and is why when an owner hires out, they really need to fully understand a contractors bid and scope of work.


Many of us are fortunate to have the ability to do our own site work, I'd rent a dozer and vibratory roller, grade the area, purchase the suitable sub base material, place/compact in 12" lifts, smaller vibratory, 6" lifts, ( I always have trouble finding a roller for rent around here ), do the math it might be cost effective, the only catch now is trucking and insurance costs with rental houses, used to be very cost effective to rent and do it yourself, kind of like buying wholesale.
 
Compaction, compaction, compaction.

I've had contractors who wanted to "track" it with a dozer to obtain compaction. Don't let them do that! A dozer track gives very little compaction, but it's easy to convince someone differently if they don't know.

You can use a vibra-plate hand compactor if you place the gravel in 4" lifts. You can't spend too much time on compaction. Thinner lifts equal better compaction no matter what equipment you use.
 
"Many of us are fortunate to have the ability to do our own site work"....I do have some smaller equipment (23 hp kubota w/fel and a few implements), I could DIY, but my problem is time. As in 13 hour workdays, weekends booked thru Oct, plus any learning curve using rented equpiment, I fear it would never get done.

FWIW...My last big project was installing Nova Brik siding on my house. 1300 square foot ranch. We "guessed" it would take 6 months. It took 23 months, which included 3-4 months off after a minor heart attack. The wife helped from day-1. We did save $$, turned out great, but it got old mid 2nd summer. The new barn, wife and I agreed that this was to big for us, hire it out from the start.

Thank you for your time.
Regards.....don t. ....
 
Not even worth tearing up that Kubota, but if you had 1 experienced person and a decent rental house, preparing a building site for a barn with a slab is relatively easy, lot easier than that brick, no real hand work involved. If you have a comfortable budget, might as well hire out, just know what you are getting, a reputable contractor should complete the site prep on that quickly.

Sometimes it pays to look at alternatives, can save you $$$ to spend somewhere else on the same job.
 

gmd,
It sounds like this don either doesn't live
in cold climate or he would not want a door on
the west side (roll up door).
Also you try not to put doors on the eves side
of a building, you will get water down your neck
and the rain ans snow will freeze the door shut.
Put doors on the end and have long over hang to
protect the door.

And for Billy ny , great ideas and knowledge,
but a bit overkill for the application.

george
 
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