Poor Design (not tractor)

[Mcrafty1]

How about the 2012-19 Ford 3.5 and 3.7 V6 water pump driven by the timing chain, these are in Explorers and the Edge and some other models. Here is a photo of me in the middle of changing mine at 95K. The small sprocket at the bottom of the V in the chain is it. Also when you pull the pump out you get a gush of a couple quarts of coolant that goes right in the oil pan.
I saw a video about some guy touting the use of synthetic oil as being the “savior” to this water pump coolant seal lasting a long time. This in fact has zero to do with how well the coolant seal will last. The normal pump weep hole has a channel that opens back to the engine block passage that is open to the side of the block. If the seal fails that seals either the oil or the coolant it would leak out of that weep hole. So essentially engine oil never touches the coolant seal unless the oil side seal leaks. And FYI the weep hole will leak out and drip off the bottom of the A/C pump.
And I got to do it twice essentially the timing cover is only sealed by RTV and has to be “fished” in there to get it in and out. So I had missed a spot and it leaked oil.
View attachment 99479

I can understand why you are doing the fix yourself, that job done at a independent shop would cost a small fortune, at the dealer it would be cheaper to trade it. At least in my area it would.

 

[jhwis]

You don't have any idea what a real engineer does, nor do you comprehend the 'corporate' process in putting products on the market or why.
I've had to listen to amateurs blamming engineers for all sorts of so called 'poor' designs for the past 40 years. Do you happen to appreciate 'good' designs? Because the OP has some difficulty changing a light bulb (likely wasn't aware of the correct/simple procedure) you go ahead and blame the engineer, not the 'corporation' or the managers, or the profit system, or the bankers, or all the rest of everything else. Just maybe the design engineer said it was not a great idea but was over ruled by the 'board of directors'. And, you know what engineers or anyone that actually wants to go into that profession spend alot of time on their own working on things in the real world.

Pretty sure the OP was referencing the engineering process in general as it relates to maintenance. No doubt there are many factors attributing to a poor design. If you disagree then you really haven't encountered situations where an obvious minute change would have alleviated major maintenance headaches.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Most of the new vehicles, tractors include being manufactured this century I believe are being designed by engineers that have a sideline selling Extended Vehicle Warranties. If not, they're missing a good chance.

 

[NoDakInMN]

Engineers have certainly done things worthy of scorn, I've practically made a career out of fixing their mistakes. But one thing people are overlooking here is a reality automotive engineers are forced to contend with, and that's government imposed CAFE standards. Government bureaucrats, who have zero background in successfully building anything, set milage standards car manufacturers are forced to abide by. In order to design cars that meet these government standards, engineers are forced to create designs that sacrifice things they might otherwise not have done. In deciding what is and isn't sacrificed, a pecking order order is set up and serviceability often ends up near the bottom of the list. That's because manufacturers primary goal is to sell cars, so more weight is given to designing things that influence customers to buy their cars.


Over the years, the amount of customers who are knowledgeable about serving a vehicle, has dropped remarkably. Where it was once commonplace to see average car owners tinkering on their cars and performing their own maintenance on evenings and weekends, that has become a rare sight, even if the local HOA allows it. Consequently, the customer rarely considers serviceability until the car is in the shop needing repairs, and by then the ink has long been dry on the sales contract.

So, while engineers have earned in many ways the reputation they have, it is also true that many times things are made the way they are because those same engineers are put in situations where they simply have no good options and have to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[JMOR]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

 

[caterpillar guy]

I would let the A/C go and let the next guy fix it if he wanted it to work. I am always telling my engineer brother those same thins and he tells me it was the accountant I should be blaming. I then reply with the bolt should have been bigger so it didn't break or strip getting it that tight.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

I’ve always wondered too why that particular thing is so bad on the Silverado too it’s like they want you to keep breathing the Freon instead of fixing the car. Certainly could be bolted in from the outside

 

[wp6529]

Two factors:

- They used to cram 5# of sh*t into a 5# bag and thus service was relatively easy. Today they are cramming 50# of sh*t into a 4# bag so there just isn't room and things have to be distributed more widely. Indeed engine compartment heat reduced battery life so moving them elsewhere is a good design.

- What seems like a big deal to remove to access something often really isn't. It may be when you have never done it before, but for someone who wrenches on the vehicles daily it may be a two minute thing to pull an air box out with one clamp and a couple connectors to undo.

 

[JMOR]

Two factors:

- They used to cram 5# of sh*t into a 5# bag and thus service was relatively easy. Today they are cramming 50# of sh*t into a 4# bag so there just isn't room and things have to be distributed more widely. Indeed engine compartment heat reduced battery life so moving them elsewhere is a good design.

- What seems like a big deal to remove to access something often really isn't. It may be when you have never done it before, but for someone who wrenches on the vehicles daily it may be a two minute thing to pull an air box out with one clamp and a couple connectors to undo.

Certainly NOT on that MB!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I’ve always wondered too why that particular thing is so bad on the Silverado too it’s like they want you to keep breathing the Freon instead of fixing the car. Certainly could be bolted in from the outside

Have you opened the hood? WHERE would you put it? There's no room at the inn.

The car has to meet efficiency standards. The car has to meet safety standards. The car has to meet fuel economy standards. The car has to have the convenience features that most customers want.

Designers are the problem, not engineers. They come up with the shape and size of the vehicle, plop it in the engineers' lap and say, "Here, fit all that stuff in this shell. Make it work. Good luck!"

 

[Tgrasher]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one

The evaporator is leaking on my 2010 Ram, the Childons repair manual says it's best to leave it to the experts, doesn't cover removal and reassembly.

 

[kencombs]

Engineers of every stripe have goals to meet within each project. Those goals come from management, which gets input from accounting, sales, marketing, assembly , and others. Notice which one is listed first. It has to be cheap enough to make money, people must be enticed to buy it, and labor to assemble must be low.

This is true of cars, computers, TVs, literally everything.

None of those cater to maintenance.

If we as customers insisted on a total life cycle cost to own on the window sticker of each new vehicle so that a real comparison could be made things would be different.

Every buyer at the corporate level does that type of calculation on big purchases, earthmovers, data center equipment, buildings etc. But we don't have enough info like failure rates, life expectancy, labor costs, etc to even make a wild guess on 50-100k vehicles.

 

[Texasmark]

Engineers should be made to work on vehicles for a year before they get to design something.

That's exactly how I felt when I was working in industry. Engineers should have an internship just like the medical folks. Just because a person has mastered (or passed) life sciences in school, doesn't mean they know how to do the best design for the application.

 

[Texasmark]

I’ve always wondered too why that particular thing is so bad on the Silverado too it’s like they want you to keep breathing the Freon instead of fixing the car. Certainly could be bolted in from the outside

Which Silverado?

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Have you opened the hood? WHERE would you put it? There's no room at the inn.

The car has to meet efficiency standards. The car has to meet safety standards. The car has to meet fuel economy standards. The car has to have the convenience features that most customers want.

Designers are the problem, not engineers. They come up with the shape and size of the vehicle, plop it in the engineers' lap and say, "Here, fit all that stuff in this shell. Make it work. Good luck!"

If they can bolt a heater core in with hoses from the outside why not? They don’t really have to put it anywhere else. Just change it so it bolts in and slide it out into the engine compartment. That is truly what frustrated me was the whole dash comes apart and 2 days are spent getting to it for no reason.

 

[Texasmark]

Engineers of every stripe have goals to meet within each project. Those goals come from management, which gets input from accounting, sales, marketing, assembly , and others. Notice which one is listed first. It has to be cheap enough to make money, people must be enticed to buy it, and labor to assemble must be low.

This is true of cars, computers, TVs, literally everything.

None of those cater to maintenance.

If we as customers insisted on a total life cycle cost to own on the window sticker of each new vehicle so that a real comparison could be made things would be different.

Every buyer at the corporate level does that type of calculation on big purchases, earthmovers, data center equipment, buildings etc. But we don't have enough info like failure rates, life expectancy, labor costs, etc to even make a wild guess on 50-100k vehicles.

Many times I have observed automotive production lines where the base of the vehicle is finished before the cab is dropped into place. Agree that the factory doesn't have to go through the frustrations the purchaser encounters.

 

[NoDakInMN]

The evaporator is leaking on my 2010 Ram, the Childons repair manual says it's best to leave it to the experts, doesn't cover removal and reassembly.

Likely the manual says that due to their legal department. You need to be certified in refrigerant recovery to safely (in the eyes of our wise and benevolent government) to remove any and all refrigerant in the system.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Which Silverado?

We did a 3/4 ton Silverado long bed I believe it was an 04 or 05 we had the whole cab in pieces the people in the office thought we were parting it out. I believe we also did a 11 3/4 ton dodge that had stunk since we bought it that might have been a heater core only hindsight isn’t always 2020 you would think after only 5 years I could remember exactly what we did. On the automotive side of life they have made it way more complicated to access the evaporator and heater core on some than necessary.

 

[ss55]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

Thirty years ago, in the upper Midwest, most people would have chosen not to spend the money to repair the A/C on a ten year old vehicle with 100,000 miles. They would continue to drive it w/o A/C until rust or some other major breakdown sent the vehicle to the scrap yard within a few more years.

Vehicle manufacturers only need to satisfy the NEW vehicle buyers to stay in business. Today new vehicle buyers are not concerned with serviceability because, barring collision damage, new vehicles now run a quarter million miles and ten to twenty years with minimal service beyond regularly scheduled maintenance.

Today the new vehicle manufacturers are grappling with the how to stay profitable when low cost $15,000 China made EVs hit the US market. Tariffs can delay that by a few years, but so far US manufacturers do not have the technology to compete in that kind of market.

 

[scootergmc]

Well there is a difference between pajeet software 'engineers' and real engineers you likely have not been exposed to. Do more research outside social media.

Software engineers, social media. Heh heh... This is my social media.