Poor Design (not tractor)

[stoughtonfarmboy]

A friend worked at Chrysler/Fiat (?) in Belvidere IL and noted bolts holding dashboard in place were put in by machine, followed by windshield. The angle of the bolts was optimized for the machine assembly, not future dashboard removal.

We joked that someone probably got "engineer of the year" award for coming up with that.

 

[wh]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

Have one leaking in a 1993 silverado. Afraid dash is too brittle to take out. AC works great when full. Decided it is cheaper to add freon. Only drive it 5000 or so in a year. Engineers and designers should have to replace every part on a vehicle before it goes on sale. IMHO MOST of these 2 groups can only work on paper, not in real world applications of repairing what they have made!

 

[JMOR]

Thirty years ago, in the upper Midwest, most people would have chosen not to spend the money to repair the A/C on a ten year old vehicle with 100,000 miles. They would continue to drive it w/o A/C until rust or some other major breakdown sent the vehicle to the scrap yard within a few more years.

Vehicle manufacturers only need to satisfy the NEW vehicle buyers to stay in business. Today new vehicle buyers are not concerned with serviceability because, barring collision damage, new vehicles now run a quarter million miles and ten to twenty years with minimal service beyond regularly scheduled maintenance.

Today the new vehicle manufacturers are grappling with the how to stay profitable when low cost $15,000 China made EVs hit the US market. Tariffs can delay that by a few years, but so far US manufacturers do not have the technology to compete in that kind of market.

I wouldn't characterize it in that way; "but so far US manufacturers do not have the technology to compete in that kind of market.:.
I would say that we don't have the 'near slave' labor that China has.

 

[wp6529]

I wouldn't characterize it in that way; "but so far US manufacturers do not have the technology to compete in that kind of market.:.
I would say that we don't have the 'near slave' labor that China has.

Don't worry, it's coming soon...

 

[ss55]

I wouldn't characterize it in that way; "but so far US manufacturers do not have the technology to compete in that kind of market.:.
I would say that we don't have the 'near slave' labor that China has.

The US does not have anything to compete with BYD's new Blade 2 battery ( lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery ). Tesla is buying those batteries from BYD to install in Tesla vehicles, Ford and GM seem to be surrendering that portion of the market, and Stellantis is just trying to stay out of bankruptcy.

 

[Texasmark]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

Nice job Jesse. You do it alone or did your son help you?

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Engineer ( or designer, or banker, or board of directors) decided it would be a good idea to place a set screw here to mangle the threads so, when the cylinder is disassembled, the threads are stripped off the barrel.

Can't pin production costs on this one , a couple drops of loc-tite is cheaper than the tooling and labor costs to drill and tap this hole. Is also possible that they KNEW this was a bad idea and are counting on the cylinder being ruined so they can move more of them.

 

[Brendon-KS]

Have one leaking in a 1993 silverado. Afraid dash is too brittle to take out. AC works great when full. Decided it is cheaper to add freon. Only drive it 5000 or so in a year. Engineers and designers should have to replace every part on a vehicle before it goes on sale. IMHO MOST of these 2 groups can only work on paper, not in real world applications of repairing what they have made!

By the same token, most of those that do the most complaining would likely have no clue on how to design and engineer a vehicle that is cost-effective, reliable, and meets the requirements and specifications laid out by the marketing group. They may think they could but until a person has done it they have no idea what kind of challenge it is and what kind of compromises must be made. Would the customer of a new vehicle be willing to pay more or make other sacrifices in exchange for the knowledge that a certain component (an evaporator, for example) will be easier to replace 20+ years down the road? Not likely - they would just complain that it costs too much and go buy something else less expensive.

 

[Brendon-KS]

Engineer ( or designer, or banker, or board of directors) decided it would be a good idea to place a set screw here to mangle the threads so, when the cylinder is disassembled, the threads are stripped off the barrel.

Can't pin production costs on this one , a couple drops of loc-tite is cheaper than the tooling and labor costs to drill and tap this hole. Is also possible that they KNEW this was a bad idea and are counting on the cylinder being ruined so they can move more of them. View attachment 99548

Using a set screw to lock a cylinder together is a common method. Thread locker comes with its own set of problems, not the least of which is reliability if the threads aren't completely free of oil when the parts are assembled. It is also much more difficult to inspect a completed cylinder for proper assembly. Did the assembler use one drop, ten drops, or none at all? There's no way to tell. On the other hand, it is easy to verify that a set screw was installed. Liquid thread locker is a real mess to use on a production line and if a joint requires it the typical thing is for the manufacturer to purchase hardware that has a pre-applied patch of dry locking compound. This would be difficult to do for cylinders where the threaded pieces are usually machined in-house and assembled right away.

If the set screw is backed out before attemping to take the cylinder apart the parts aren't damaged at all and are perfectly reusable.

 

[stdsch40]

Using a set screw to lock a cylinder together is a common method. Thread locker comes with its own set of problems, not the least of which is reliability if the threads aren't completely free of oil when the parts are assembled. It is also much more difficult to inspect a completed cylinder for proper assembly. Did the assembler use one drop, ten drops, or none at all? There's no way to tell. On the other hand, it is easy to verify that a set screw was installed. Liquid thread locker is a real mess to use on a production line and if a joint requires it the typical thing is for the manufacturer to purchase hardware that has a pre-applied patch of dry locking compound. This would be difficult to do for cylinders where the threaded pieces are usually machined in-house and assembled right away.

If the set screw is backed out before attemping to take the cylinder apart the parts aren't damaged at all and are perfectly reusable.

Exactly.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Using a set screw to lock a cylinder together is a common method. Thread locker comes with its own set of problems, not the least of which is reliability if the threads aren't completely free of oil when the parts are assembled. It is also much more difficult to inspect a completed cylinder for proper assembly. Did the assembler use one drop, ten drops, or none at all? There's no way to tell. On the other hand, it is easy to verify that a set screw was installed. Liquid thread locker is a real mess to use on a production line and if a joint requires it the typical thing is for the manufacturer to purchase hardware that has a pre-applied patch of dry locking compound. This would be difficult to do for cylinders where the threaded pieces are usually machined in-house and assembled right away.

If the set screw is backed out before attemping to take the cylinder apart the parts aren't damaged at all and are perfectly reusable.

Ummm... no. Was squirting penetrating oil in there to try and loosen it .

The threads were mashed with no prayer of getting past there unscathed.

 

[Old560]

I have a 2015 Jeep Cherokee. The low beam bulb burned out. The dealer wanted 275.00 plus to change it. There are a couple ways to change the bulb. Remove a access cover in the wheel well. Impossible. remove the front plastic bumper. Or remove the air cleaner in the engine compartment. I went that route. If I had arms, and like a monkey it would have been much easier. I got it done, and didn't remove much skin. Now tomorrow I get to replace the battery under the passenger seat. Really Looking foreword to that also. What were they thinking, when they built this car? Stan






















Stan

Yep they want you to take it to the dealer. On my vehicles easiest one to change the headlight on a 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500. By the time i pop the hood pull one pin out of the top of head light assembly pull the entire headlight assembly out of the truck in less then 30 seconds. Absolutely no bells and whistles on it hand operated windows hand operated locks no cruise control.

 

[ss55]

Ummm... no. Was squirting penetrating oil in there to try and loosen it .

The threads were mashed with no prayer of getting past there unscathed.

On older equipment a previous owner may have tried turning it without loosening the set screw and messed up the threads.

It is common practice to use a soft brass or plastic plug ahead of a set screw to prevent damaging threads. Over the years the soft plug may have been lost or omitted during a previous repair.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

If they can bolt a heater core in with hoses from the outside why not? They don’t really have to put it anywhere else. Just change it so it bolts in and slide it out into the engine compartment. That is truly what frustrated me was the whole dash comes apart and 2 days are spent getting to it for no reason.

You missed my point: The engine compartments are packed so full these days, there's no place for the heater core to "slide out" to!

 

[Hobo,NC]

So incredibly time/work intensive to replace the A//C evaporator! No one planned for that!

https://imgur.com/E9kwT7H

https://imgur.com/163loGr

https://imgur.com/1kTekoK

https://imgur.com/z0jIecU

https://imgur.com/BSNvVep

Soon folks will get what they want if not now its in use now. I can not find the video will keep looking. Auto AC is evolving into a package unit the evaporator will be mounted to the AC compressor and use coolant of some kind at the heat exchangers. How do you like this one $$$$$

REPAIR BILL electric heat recovery, multiple plate, heat, exchanger, and electric expansion valves

You do not wanna burn out one of these compressors on a customer car with black death. The repair bill will be astronomical . 

www.youtube.com

Getting close still looking.

23 Mustang heat pump, coolant heat, exchangers using refrigerant with glycol to transfer heat

Mustang heat pump circuit 

www.youtube.com

 

[Fritz Maurer]

On older equipment a previous owner may have tried turning it without loosening the set screw and messed up the threads.

It is common practice to use a soft brass or plastic plug ahead of a set screw to prevent damaging threads. Over the years the soft plug may have been lost or omitted during a previous repair.

No, again... if that were true , it would be obvious where the screw bulldozed the threads and got jammed in the nut threads ahead of the hole.

Yes , set screws are used occasionally on cylinders. But the smart ones machine a flat for the set screw that is out of the way of the threads; or like Case, who uses a #8 screw threaded into the joint between the gland and the barrel.

A plastic plug would have been a good idea , if they had used it. The history of this cylinder is known and has never been apart before.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Yep they want you to take it to the dealer. On my vehicles easiest one to change the headlight on a 2006 Chevy Silverado 1500. By the time i pop the hood pull one pin out of the top of head light assembly pull the entire headlight assembly out of the truck in less then 30 seconds. Absolutely no bells and whistles on it hand operated windows hand operated locks no cruise control.

2007 they changed that it became a hour job. Once you replaced a few and knew where they hid one screw on the side/corner of the headlight assembly once the wheel was off its not a bad job to do. Its not a parking lot job like the 06 : (

Sometimes I am angered sometimes I get over the anger. Look at it this way on the 07 it takes me a hour ( 1:00) I bill a hour. On the next one it takes me 30 min I learned how to do the job faster I am prepared do not have to research the operation I am making money at it now the customer understands cuzz knows its not plug and play. .

On the 06 they will get angered I charge book time 0:03 to plug and play : (

Line those 07's up life is good.

 

[JMOR]

Soon folks will get what they want if not now its in use now. I can not find the video will keep looking. Auto AC is evolving into a package unit the evaporator will be mounted to the AC compressor and use coolant of some kind at the heat exchangers. How do you like this one $$$$$

REPAIR BILL electric heat recovery, multiple plate, heat, exchanger, and electric expansion valves

You do not wanna burn out one of these compressors on a customer car with black death. The repair bill will be astronomical . 

www.youtube.com

Getting close still looking.

23 Mustang heat pump, coolant heat, exchangers using refrigerant with glycol to transfer heat

Mustang heat pump circuit 

www.youtube.com

Give an engineer a clean sheet of paper & near zero guidance and this is the kind of "job" (& that is being real nice) you get!

 

[Fixingfarmer]

You missed my point: The engine compartments are packed so full these days, there's no place for the heater core to "slide out" to!

Right where the hoses attach to it the core isn’t that big I’d put it in the same spot just pull it out where the hoses attach. we are talking a foot by 10 by 2 old phone book size on the newer ones and half that space easy is taken up by the requirement of having hoses attached to it from the engine compartment once you remove those since that’s step one of removing the heater core if there was a suitable hole in the firewall (which might be the only reason I can conceive of that they wouldn’t do it this way but other stuff certainly goes through it) you could slide it out forward there’s plenty of space that high up all they would have to do put the plastic hole in the air box facing the engine compartment in and put welded nuts on a flange where the heater lines exit and we are done. MAYBE you would have to move a receiver dryer canister to pull it out in the particular spot I’m thinking but that’s a MAYBE if it was designed with some thought by someone paid more than me who knows what they could accomplish.
You are correct it is plenty cluttered in the engine compartment but compared to the plastic on the inside let’s not forget they have cluttered that too with airbags and electronic servos moving louvers I’d still take moving a battery out of the way or anything in the engine compartment really over that

 

[Jeff in ND]

Last month I was at the Subaru dealer for an oil change (have them do it as still under powertrain warrentee). Older couple sitting in the waiting area and the service manager comes to talk to them. Not sure what model of Subaru it was but the running light on one of the headlight assemblies was out. To fix it, entire headlight assembly would have to be replaced. Not sure if this included labor but I remember the figure of $1100 being mentioned. These things are all LED now so there is no "bulb" to change. Likely some components on the circuit board in there failed and if one had the knowledge it could be repaired for $5 in electronic parts. But, those assemblies are not made to be repaired and its probably all glued together and there is no information publicly available on the innards. Same as for any electronics black box on the modern vehicle.

I got the idea the couple was visiting the area for the holidays and lived in another state. They decided to leave it be for now. Seemed like the warrentee on that issue was expired so it would cost them out of pocket if they wanted it fixed.