Poor Design (not tractor)

[ss55]

If they can bolt a heater core in with hoses from the outside why not? They don’t really have to put it anywhere else. Just change it so it bolts in and slide it out into the engine compartment. That is truly what frustrated me was the whole dash comes apart and 2 days are spent getting to it for no reason.

People would still complain if the engine has to be removed to make enough room to slide the heater core into the engine bay.

Which is the better design:
A vehicle that does not need anything more than scheduled maintenance for over ten years, but is harder to work on,
or
a vehicle that is easier to work on, but always needs repair?
The new vehicle buyer decides. Most new vehicle buyers only keep a vehicle for less than ten years, for them the first example would be the better choice.

Not very many people bother to look at the scheduled maintenance book or the service manuals when shopping for a new vehicle.

 

[JMOR]

Nice job Jesse. You do it alone or did your son help you?

oh, yeah! or maybe I held the light & handed him tools?

 

[JMOR]

oh, yeah! or maybe I held the light & handed him tools?

.....and that was 1995! Just imagine the 2024 model!!!!

 

[Fritz Maurer]

People would still complain if the engine has to be removed to make enough room to slide the heater core into the engine bay.

That's not a legitimate concern?

Incidentally, the engine does need to be removed to remove the turbo or oil pan on a '95 F350, according to the ford shop manual. Just stupidly built in this case.

 

[kencombs]

.....and that was 1995! Just imagine the 2024 model!!!!

The only mechanical work I've ever had done, other than warranty stuff, was the heater core in my old '97 F150. Just didn't want to tackle it. Last year I had the vent/floor/windshield air selector start misbehaving so I started working on it myself. Found some Broken plastic stuff, missing screws, missing bolt that would have held the grab handle on, just really bad work. Now I remember why I do my own work.

Still haven't got the air selector fixed as I'll need to order some of the broken plastic stuff before putting it back together, and the vacuum routing that the other guy put together doesn't match the original factory configuration. Still figuring that out.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

The only mechanical work I've ever had done, other than warranty stuff, was the heater core in my old '97 F150. Just didn't want to tackle it. Last year I had the vent/floor/windshield air selector start misbehaving so I started working on it myself. Found some Broken plastic stuff, missing screws, missing bolt that would have held the grab handle on, just really bad work. Now I remember why I do my own work.

Still haven't got the air selector fixed as I'll need to order some of the broken plastic stuff before putting it back together, and the vacuum routing that the other guy put together doesn't match the original factory configuration. Still figuring that out.

May I ask how you got the two screws out , that are on either end of the dashboard right up against the door post?

I can't figure out how they got them in , even through some modular assembly process...if memory serves me, they were screwed into something that wasn't removable from the cab skeleton.

I was doing a heater core as well, but it was a dubious investment... the poor thing was so rotten that the only thing left of the spark plugs was the insulator sticking out of the head. That v6 was a good motor.

 

[mechanicfred]

There not the only one!!!

 

[Fixingfarmer]

People would still complain if the engine has to be removed to make enough room to slide the heater core into the engine bay.

Which is the better design:
A vehicle that does not need anything more than scheduled maintenance for over ten years, but is harder to work on,
or
a vehicle that is easier to work on, but always needs repair?
The new vehicle buyer decides. Most new vehicle buyers only keep a vehicle for less than ten years, for them the first example would be the better choice.

Not very many people bother to look at the scheduled maintenance book or the service manuals when shopping for a new vehicle.

I suppose you are right if they can’t figure out how to get it out into the cab easier they might switch to making someone pull a motor to do it.

 

[INCase]

Products today are designed with an oppressive oversight by cost accounting (the bean counters). Everything is analyzed. Component cost, assemble ability (cost), warranty cost, etc. Unfortunately, repair ability doesn’t really get considered.

and what the accountants/board of directors/stock holders don't limit, the gooberment emissions and fuel standards will

 

[INCase]

My model is a 2015 Grand Cherokee which Much different, than the 2015 Jeep Cherokee. Stan

i was going to say there is no battery under the seat on a cherokee. many folks use "Cherokee" for the Cherokee or the Grand Cherokee. therefore maybe some confusion

our 2021 Durango is a cousin to the Grand Cherokee... it too has the battery under the front passenger seat. Not a great place in my opinion other than it doesn't see the engine heat. I understand though that if it had the V8 engine there wouldn't be much space for it. with our V6 there is plenty of left over space. hopefully those LED headlights don't go bad... i cannot imagine what they will cost.

 

[INCase]

Before I retired, I was an engineering manager for a company that built locomotive engines, just to give my frame of reference. There was definitely a shift in hands on experience between my graduating class (BME 1978) and my son's class (BEE 2007). Most of the graduates in my class worked on their own equipment out of necessity (lack of money) or because they enjoyed doing it (fast cars). My son's graduating class had far fewer motor heads than mine, they were willing to pay others to do work for them and they were less interested in building fast cars. Fortunately for me, my son took our time in the shop to heart and works on his own equipment now (airplane, Scout, Surburban, Toyota, lawn mowers, motorcycles, house projects etc.). While he was going to college, some of his classmates that he helped with repairs and upgrades, asked him where he learned to do these things, he said from his family. That made me proud and laugh, because he used to tell me that his high school friends didn't have to do the things we did.
Today's engineering is all about reducing cost of manufacturing, using existing parts and ease of production assembly. These requirements often times are at the expense of serviceability.

I would concur. the guys i see coming out of school don't know much. hands on or not. few have hands on and most rely on the computer to tell them what to do.. we started to dabble with CAE (computer aided engineering) what i was in school (class of 1991) but still relied on hand calculations to check it.

in my opinion if you cannot do it on paper you can't do it on the computer.... including simpler things like drawings.

for the sake of the country and humanity i feel like i cannot retire... but want to for my own sanity lol. $$ wise still looking at 7-10 years give or take.

for the statement
"using existing parts" >>from where I sit working for a very large automotive supplier this is a bit false for automotive. seems like now days they have hardly any common parts.... which is one reason cars are so danged expensive.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

People would still complain if the engine has to be removed to make enough room to slide the heater core into the engine bay.

Which is the better design:
A vehicle that does not need anything more than scheduled maintenance for over ten years, but is harder to work on,
or
a vehicle that is easier to work on, but always needs repair?
The new vehicle buyer decides. Most new vehicle buyers only keep a vehicle for less than ten years, for them the first example would be the better choice.

Not very many people bother to look at the scheduled maintenance book or the service manuals when shopping for a new vehicle.

That is a good point. People act as if every vehicle needs the heater core replaced as regular maintenance. Heater cores hardly ever need to be accessed.

The reality of the situation is, you can't make everything easily serviceable in a modern vehicle. Just isn't enough physical space. If the engineers were working with a late 1960's, early 1970's land yacht, it would be better but the vehicle would really have to be 9' wide, 25' long, and 6' high to have enough space to lay everything out in a single layer so it can all be serviced easily.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Might be time one or more of the vehicle designers/engineers started working under the premise of ease of repair. If a few took the initiative and their vehicles started to become desirable maybe it would catch on.

 

[moresmoke]

Last month I was at the Subaru dealer for an oil change (have them do it as still under powertrain warrentee). Older couple sitting in the waiting area and the service manager comes to talk to them. Not sure what model of Subaru it was but the running light on one of the headlight assemblies was out. To fix it, entire headlight assembly would have to be replaced. Not sure if this included labor but I remember the figure of $1100 being mentioned. These things are all LED now so there is no "bulb" to change. Likely some components on the circuit board in there failed and if one had the knowledge it could be repaired for $5 in electronic parts. But, those assemblies are not made to be repaired and its probably all glued together and there is no information publicly available on the innards. Same as for any electronics black box on the modern vehicle.

I got the idea the couple was visiting the area for the holidays and lived in another state. They decided to leave it be for now. Seemed like the warrentee on that issue was expired so it would cost them out of pocket if they wanted it fixed.

Yup, i have a $6000 motorcycle that contains a $2000 LED headlight assembly. Not uncommon these days.

 

[d13series1]

As a 35+ year veteran of automotive engineering, I can state that we take service-ability seriously. Take the headlight change. There is a an access plug in the wheel well. Crank the steering to the side, turn the plug, reach up, and twist out the bulb. Same thing on my Equinox.

Why are these set up like this? Because the studio shortened the grill to wheel distance, the light reflectors require a minimum depth, customers demand large tires that push the wheel wells up and forward, assembly costs force a 1 piece snap in light, theft prevention says it can't come back out easily (ie common screwdriver), and there you are with everything jammed together and no top or front access. The surprise is that you can change the bulb without removing the fender.

And it is why I'm building a 1987 GMC.

 

[Texasmark]

We did a 3/4 ton Silverado long bed I believe it was an 04 or 05 we had the whole cab in pieces the people in the office thought we were parting it out. I believe we also did a 11 3/4 ton dodge that had stunk since we bought it that might have been a heater core only hindsight isn’t always 2020 you would think after only 5 years I could remember exactly what we did. On the automotive side of life they have made it way more complicated to access the evaporator and heater core on some than necessary.

Well as I said elsewhere, my 2011 has never been in the shop other than to get the annual smog inspection (done at the dealer where purchased and I trust them) which it easily passes. AC has never been serviced and will run you out of the cab in the summer if you turn it up.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Well as I said elsewhere, my 2011 has never been in the shop other than to get the annual smog inspection (done at the dealer where purchased and I trust them) which it easily passes. AC has never been serviced and will run you out of the cab in the summer if you turn it up.

I never had trouble with the AC on my 2011 5500 ram service truck either for the 7 years I had it. it would freeze you out too it was the heater that wasn't so good you would put the bonnet on the front and still not be able to thaw your toes after running it all day if it was below zero out. They kept that cummins well protected that's for sure. Granted they didn't make it for idling running a little crane and thawing out the stupid mechanic following the power line excavator around in February it was made to pull or more to carry something.

When the 11 3/4 ton that a different employer bought had the heater issue as well and then it started smelling bad and making a puddle on the floor. And everybody was worked up and why did this happen we just bought it and now we have another cab in pieces. It gets to the point where you can see things coming down the chute and sometimes there are people who don't take leave it be for an answer. And why when you are done does it still not warm up? did you try the fancy electronic thermostat that helped the other one? boy the suggestions abounded for the fix to Chryslers ails. Actually Chrysler made out like a bandit it is our the second owners of said rig ails. I suppose its kinda like an eco boost filling the crankcase with water or a 5.3 lifter issue if you have had something happen and paid to fix it it gives you a bad taste in your mouth no matter the brand.

 

[ss55]

I have a 2015 Jeep Cherokee. The low beam bulb burned out. The dealer wanted 275.00 plus to change it. There are a couple ways to change the bulb. Remove a access cover in the wheel well. Impossible. remove the front plastic bumper. Or remove the air cleaner in the engine compartment. I went that route. If I had arms, and like a monkey it would have been much easier. I got it done, and didn't remove much skin. Now tomorrow I get to replace the battery under the passenger seat. Really Looking foreword to that also. What were they thinking, when they built this car? Stan






















Stan

If you are thinking of selling that 2015 Grand Cherokee, this might be a good time to do it. Stellantis sales are slowing to the point where they have close to a full year of unsold inventory in many of their models. Industry rumor has it the company will soon be cutting the list price of unsold inventory by 20, 35 and up to 60 percent depending on the model year to move unsold iron. Admittedly, Stellantis inflated their list prices way beyond what was realistic, but the drastic price cuts of unsold new vehicles could crash the values of used models too.

 

[will-max dairy]

There ARE some cars that are inexpensive, easy to change light bulbs, all sorts of room in the engine compartment to fix anything...easy to maintain. The Mitsubishi Mirage.... Bought one new in 2016. Opened the hood on the dealer's lot and looked in the engine compartment. Looked at the back of the headlight assemblies, which were visible. Looked at the power steering... brake line routing, alternator, water pump (all on a serpentine belt that had plenty of room to change)... etc, etc.

Glad I did, because I had to put new bulbs in it, three or four times.

Replaced the alternator, and coolant crossover pipe... once...in that process, the road salt around here meant that a mounting bolt in the A/C compressor was impossible to get out without snapping... easy fix... throw the A/C on the scrap heap, go to the internet and look up the "A/C delete" serpentine belt... install that. Roll the windows down in the summer. I like fresh air anyway.

Got 200,000 miles out of it and sold it for just above scrap price.

It was a vehicle... got me to work and back to the farm...

But most people wouldn't be caught dead driving one... no status...

We get what we deserve, mostly.

 

[will-max dairy]

We're all a bunch of farm boys whining that our toys are hard to play with.

It's like complaining that the lid on the caviar jar is hard to open. lol