Power Conditioner

[OliLt]

I have a conventional gas generator used primarily on remote job sites. I would like to use it for home back-up when there is a power outage. I have learned that the power generated may not be suitable for sensitive electronic devices. Is there anything I can use to condition the power to make it more adaptable for electronic devices: computers, Tv's, anything with a CPU? I would like to avoid purchasing an inverter generator. Thanks, Oli

 

[JMOR]

How and where did you “learn”?

 

[Goose]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. If the voltage and frequency are right, what else coutd be lacking?

I used a portable generator for some years on my house before I got an automatic one, and I never had a problem with computers, etc.

If I missed something, I'd like to be informed.

 

[OliLt]

I learned about this issue from You Tube generator videos, and google searches. Apparently it has something to do with Total Harmonic Distortion. The generator AC sine wave is not as pure as the power company. I am not technically savvy, so please forgive my ignorance.

 

[wp6529]

The "power quality" of a conventional generator is something that is misrepresented by those who want to sell you "pure sine wave" inverter "generators" of some sort, either IC powered, solar or just charge up battery bank. It may have been an issue with electronics 40 years ago, but it is not an issue for any modern electronics which pretty universally use wide input range switch mode power supplies which are typically happy with most anything vaguely resembling AC electricity. Typical input specs are like 100-240V 50-60Hz, and switch mode power supplies themselves create harmonic distortion on the power line.

 

[Scott 730]

I have ran a "conventional" generator properly connected to my main panel for 2-3 days at a time during power outages. TV, fridge, freezer, computers, lights, well pump,,,,,,,,,, Haven't damaged anything yet.

 

[wp6529]

I have ran a "conventional" generator properly connected to my main panel for 2-3 days at a time during power potages. TV, fridge, freezer, computers, lights, well pump,,,,,,,,,, Haven't damaged anything yet.

Same here. The greatest hazard is refueling the running portable gas generator, sometimes in a severe thunderstorm while standing next to a 70' tower a.k.a. ligntning rod.

 

[zuhnc]

Very, very few modern electronic equipment will not run on a generator. As @wp6529 says, modern power supplies don't care, as long as the input is "close". There are some electronic furnace controls that don't like anything other than commercial power, but that is a design fault, not a power input fault. Those manufacturers "recommend" only a certain brand or model of generator, even though the output of said generator is the same (practically) as any other.

One has to have enough of a generator, though, for reliable operation of the equipment. A 3KW generator with a "peak" (whatever that is) of 4.5KW isn't enough to start a 3KW load reliably.

I have used various generators for backup for years, and have yet to find anything that doesn't run on a generator (properly sized of course) or has been damaged by a generator. I did have to widen the parameters of my UPS systems, though. They generally come from the factory with very tight input parameters; widening those parameters doesn't hurt the UPS at all, and means that, when using a generator, the UPS doesn't constantly switch between battery and generator.

 

[sotxbill]

I have a conventional gas generator used primarily on remote job sites. I would like to use it for home back-up when there is a power outage. I have learned that the power generated may not be suitable for sensitive electronic devices. Is there anything I can use to condition the power to make it more adaptable for electronic devices: computers, Tv's, anything with a CPU? I would like to avoid purchasing an inverter generator. Thanks, Oli

Ironically, very old electric wall clocks ran based on frequency from the power company and yes, they would display the wrong time if the frequency was not correct over a period of time... however most ever modern appliance either does not care, or it converts the input power to a completely different power via multivibrators, and creates a new power system that is free of any distortions on the input power. And most frequency dependent devices create their own independent "clock" via crystals and pll circuits... SO, unless your running a lot of 1950s electronic clocks, your pretty much worry free.

Now if your having brownouts or low voltage problems, then you will need a ups or conditioner, or better yet, adjust you load for the correct size generator, or the correct size generator for you load. ie starting large motors, or lots of little motors at the same time.... will/can cause a momentary brown out on a construction site with a overly small/minimal generator on 250' of undersized extension cords plugged into more cords.. with a 16 to 1 splitter. Throw in a couple of heaters and soldering irons and heat shrink gun for good measure.

 

[Keith True]

Not a big fan of being educated by u tube.It is full of educated people putting out theories,but fail to tell folks a lot of what they say is unimportant in real-life applications.There seem to be hundreds of solutions looking for a problem. Things like guys arguing that a certain bolt has a breaking point of 12000 pounds,and another bolt only has 6000 pounds of breaking strength.Then you read that the application only needs a bolt of around 600 pounds.I have had a lot of Model A Fords,and a fellow here got one a few years ago.He has a lot of questions.I really like to help him,but he seems to be addicted to u tube.I can't believe the stuff he has shown me.There are a few really good guys on there,but the home brewed armchair experts far outnumber them. I've had a computer now for about 20 years,and it has run off whatever kind of cheapo generator I had around at the time.I lose power 3 or 4 times a year.Same with my TV's,tenants here have run off them the same way.

 

[buickanddeere]

For some snooty installations . A 1:1 ratio transformer is used . The load is not electrically or mechanically connected , only magnetic coupling .
The impedance in the transformer windings filters out the most of high frequency harmonics and smooths out some of the distorted sine waves .

 

[m16ty]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. If the voltage and frequency are right, what else coutd be lacking?

I used a portable generator for some years on my house before I got an automatic one, and I never had a problem with computers, etc.

If I missed something, I'd like to be informed.

Lots of lower end generators especially produce “dirty” power. The sine wave can be rough and it can be hard on some electronics. In other words, you can have correct voltage and frequency but the waveform can be rough and sensitive electronics sometimes don’t like it.
I don’t know how you correct the problem other than buy a better generator, but I run my house on an old military generator without issue. While I haven’t checked the waveform, I would venture to guess it’s not very clean.

 

[glennster]

if you are looking for a power conditioner for sensitive electronics, look at Furman power conditioners. i have one in my audio rack for my sound system for my band. https://furmanpower.com/

 

[timcasbolt]

I agree with the others that clean power is not as big a deal as some people think, but if it really bothers you an uninterruptible power source (UPS) solves that problem.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Everything electronic these days is DC powered. Devices either uses a switching power supply, or the power is rectified and transformed down to low-voltage DC before it reaches the device.

A switching power supply can take just about any voltage, any frequency, and turn it into "clean" DC power. You can tell by reading a label. If the label says the power input is 120/230VAC at 50/60Hz, then it's a switching power supply.

 

[wp6529]

I agree with the others that clean power is not as big a deal as some people think, but if it really bothers you an uninterruptible power source (UPS) solves that problem.

None of the common affordable UPSes will in any way condition the power waveform, the simply pass the input AC straight through to the output when input power is available. The slightly more expensive UPSes that advertise an AVR function also do not condition the input power, they only have a transformer with a few taps the UPS can select to compensate for input voltage a bit below or above the target output voltage.

Only the significantly more expensive online double conversion UPSes provide any power conditioning and even on those you have to be careful to configure them for the online mode as many have an "economy" mode that keeps the inverter online in parallel for zero-break switching on power failures but does not operate in double conversion mode by default.

Actual standalone power conditioners are typically feroresonant transformers and some power factor capacitors. They are large, heavy, expensive and somewhat rare since as has been noted, very few electronic items these days are at all sensitive to the "dirty" power produced by small generators.

The "dirty" power nonsense is just marketing propaganda from those trying to sell you some overpriced "clean" product and it is the same marketing babble you also see in the food and "supplement" arenas. If these areas were regulated the advertisers would not be allowed to make such unsubstantiated and often outright false claims.

 

[UncleTom]

I will say this. To run a furnace with a circuit board requires a bonded neutral. I have a son in Alaska and power was out and temps in the house were 33 degrees. He has 2 honda inverter generators and called me to see why the generator wont run the furnace. I have already done my home work on this and made a plug that plugs into the genny with a jumper wire between the ground and nuetral. You plug it into the genny and now it has a bonded neutral allowing the furnace to be plugged in to the genny. I told him that and he quickly made a plug and his furnace fired up and took the spare genny to the neighbors and got them running too saving the house from freeze up. I also saved a guy here where i live that run and electrician business and he was trying to get his furnace to run as well. I told him about the bonded neutral and it worked for him and admitted as an electrician he didnt know this. Circuit boards do not like floating grounds.

 

[wp6529]

I will say this. To run a furnace with a circuit board requires a bonded neutral. I have a son in Alaska and power was out and temps in the house were 33 degrees. He has 2 honda inverter generators and called me to see why the generator wont run the furnace. I have already done my home work on this and made a plug that plugs into the genny with a jumper wire between the ground and nuetral. You plug it into the genny and now it has a bonded neutral allowing the furnace to be plugged in to the genny. I told him that and he quickly made a plug and his furnace fired up and took the spare genny to the neighbors and got them running too saving the house from freeze up. I also saved a guy here where i live that run and electrician business and he was trying to get his furnace to run as well. I told him about the bonded neutral and it worked for him and admitted as an electrician he didnt know this. Circuit boards do not like floating grounds.

I've heard this as well but since I don't have such a furnace I haven't dug deeper. I imagine it's down the the limited number of folks actually designing those controls as there isn't a technical reason that a furnace should care at all if the neutral is bonded or not. HVAC stuff is kinda like canned foods, unlabled units in a big warehouse at the actual manufacturer and then slap on the label as you fill the orders - exactly the same product under 20 different brands.

 

[buickanddeere]

Some of the sensors need the chassis at the same potential as the neutral .

 

[wore out]

Some of the sensors need the chassis at the same potential as the neutral .

EXACTLY!

This is TYPICAL of gas furnaces that use a "flame rod" to sense that the pilot or main burner is lit.