I was driving to church this morning and listening to the regional news format AM station. One of the programs is a call-in to a local lawyer about various small time legal issues. Anyways, as I start out the driveway the guest lawyer was discussing hunting/ land owner rights. His opinion was that a land owner would typically be at issue if an accident happened (on his property, of course) even after proper posting and denial of permission was done. The specific point of issue I have was he said a hunter would still have recourse against a landowner where the hunter had previous access to the property but was properly informed that he was no longer allowed to be there. We are not talking about somebody (new to area) inadvertently crossing over and being hurt but somebody who would have known the boundaries in question for many years but willfully trespassed after permission was withdrawn. Is there such a thing as true private property anymore?
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Tom-NorthCenTX
Member
Simple. Dont give premission in the first place. No one EVER hunts on my land and never will. No exceptions, no kinfolks, no special buddies, etc, etc. Just dont let it get started, make it clear to anyone who asks: No fishing, no hunting, no 4-wheelers, no picknickers, no walkers/hikers, no bird watchers, no trespassing, end of story. Tom
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
It happened here a couple of years back. Stray bullet found it's way into a young ladies head. Landowner was held partially responsible. There is a huge debate goin on at huntingpa.com about this issue. Some are saying that if you post your land, you assume all responsiblity and if you don't, the state will assume.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Same in NY. Don't listen to those radio shows that get you all worked up.
Tom-NorthCenTX,
That's exactly my position. When I bought my vacant property here in Michigan, the neighbors had been using it as their personal recreation preserve. They were miffed that I would not give permission for anyone to hunt/fish, ride, etc on it. While I was standing on it one time shortly after I bought it, neighbor's relative drove right by me pulling a trailer and 2 seadoos heading for my pond. Even waved to me with big smiles on their faces. I chased them down and they couldn't understand why I wouldn't let them. Ever since, I've been putting fences up on the perimeter. But during hunting season when I'm not around, they just pull them down and do a half-ars job of putting them back up.
Here in Michigan, the landowner is pretty well protected from crazy lawsuits. But that doesn't mean someone wouldn't try.
That's exactly my position. When I bought my vacant property here in Michigan, the neighbors had been using it as their personal recreation preserve. They were miffed that I would not give permission for anyone to hunt/fish, ride, etc on it. While I was standing on it one time shortly after I bought it, neighbor's relative drove right by me pulling a trailer and 2 seadoos heading for my pond. Even waved to me with big smiles on their faces. I chased them down and they couldn't understand why I wouldn't let them. Ever since, I've been putting fences up on the perimeter. But during hunting season when I'm not around, they just pull them down and do a half-ars job of putting them back up.
Here in Michigan, the landowner is pretty well protected from crazy lawsuits. But that doesn't mean someone wouldn't try.
All depends on what a sharp lawyer can convince a jury. Depends a lot on what the land owner has, that could be considered an "attractive nuisance," Like an unfenced swimming pool, is an accident waiting to happen. Lsws will vary by state, and locality. Anyone can sue you for anything.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Why would you do that, once you are dead, will you still be worrying.I think your final location only concerns the living.
Tony in Mass.
Well-known Member
That was a PA court ruling? Now that is ignorant. Sounds like something Arlan Spector would come up with. As for the OP from NY 986, yeah NY, when I lived up there, never met or heard of anyone ever getting procecuted for tresspassing. I had relatives who got busted for violations, not tresspassing, slap on the wrist, and the warden kept an eye on them from then on, but- worst sentence is??? a few hundred for violations, trespass is suppose to be? 3 years without hunting?? Legally that is, an outlaw is an outlaw right? The best thing is first day of season, load the place up with your family and freinds, you guys shoot what's there, and chase the rest off. Or so's the ratboys will figure. No one believes the herd will be back at midnight, but the story will spread. 'No sense going onto NY's place, he chased all the deer off fer good!' New York DEC is gutless about this, the guy on the radio might have valid points. I know for a fact some southern states treat trespassing as a felony, and mean it. And I bet their property tax is alot less than yours... good luck, you are going to need it.
John T Country Lawyer
Member
Tell ya what, I cant cover the entire topic of Torts, Negligence and Trespass here what takes yearsssssssssss of study and an entire law library to describe, but I have a few comments:
I (an Attorney but NOT a specialist in Tort Law) DO NOT AGREE with the blanket opinion you posted: "His opinion was that a land owner would typically be at issue if an accident happened (on his property, of course) even after proper posting and denial of permission was done"
You, the (Defendant land owner) have a "Duty" to NOT expose the Plaintiff (the hunter) to a reasonably forseeable risk of injury. Now, if the hunter were a business invitee (i.e. someone who is paying you) your duty and standard of care is fairly high ............But if the person was only say a guest (you allowed him to hunt) your duty and standard of care is much less
HOWEVER IF THE PERSON IS A TRESPASSER NOT INVITED AND NOT GIVEN PERMISSION TO HUNT THERE AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU GAVE HIM NOTICE HE MAY NOT..........YOU OWE HIM PRACTICALY NO DUTY OF CARE WHATSOEVER i.e you are most likely NOT liable if he is injured. Typical exceptions would be you cant set a booby trap and if say you knew there was a dangerous hazard you should inform a person of such HOWEVER for a trespasser who is there despite your refusal and against your permission, the no booby trap exceptions is likely about the ONLY thing you have to worry about. ALSO In states where contributory negligence is the law of the land, hunting is a inherently dangerous sport so as a matter of law, the hunter has assumed the risk of injury when he goes trampling over rough terrain carrying a gun DUH..............
So many lay persosn are under the false impression that just because an accident happens the landowner is right on liable THATS SIMPLY NOTTTTTTTTT TRUE one has to apply the law to the facts and the entire body of law regarding torts and negligence and work through the entire duty and standard of care issue, if there was a breach of such, and if that was the proximate cause of the injury (All this subject to state statutes) THATS WHAT THE LAW SAYS (theres 10,000 pages in a sentence lol)
NOTE this can NOT be answered (a worthwhile professional opinion rendered at least) here absent a research of your states laws by a trained professional and this is a very complex issue which can not be answered in a few sentences by attorneys or lay persons on a tractor chat board, so this is worth just what you paid NOTHING
THAT BEING SAID it is my unresearched yet professionaly trained opinion based ONLY on what you posted IF YOU GIVE A PERSON NOTICE THEY MAY NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT HUNT ON YOUR LAND (and you dont have any dangerous booby traps set which may injure him) AND THERES AN ACCIDENT (through no fault of yours) YOU WILL NOT BE FOUND LIABLE BY A COURT OF LAW
My fellow co counsels Mike and Dean are probably more current and active in this area of law then myself being semi retired, so if they disagree Id trust their opinions over mine............
John T BSEE, JD retired Country Lawyer
I (an Attorney but NOT a specialist in Tort Law) DO NOT AGREE with the blanket opinion you posted: "His opinion was that a land owner would typically be at issue if an accident happened (on his property, of course) even after proper posting and denial of permission was done"
You, the (Defendant land owner) have a "Duty" to NOT expose the Plaintiff (the hunter) to a reasonably forseeable risk of injury. Now, if the hunter were a business invitee (i.e. someone who is paying you) your duty and standard of care is fairly high ............But if the person was only say a guest (you allowed him to hunt) your duty and standard of care is much less
HOWEVER IF THE PERSON IS A TRESPASSER NOT INVITED AND NOT GIVEN PERMISSION TO HUNT THERE AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU GAVE HIM NOTICE HE MAY NOT..........YOU OWE HIM PRACTICALY NO DUTY OF CARE WHATSOEVER i.e you are most likely NOT liable if he is injured. Typical exceptions would be you cant set a booby trap and if say you knew there was a dangerous hazard you should inform a person of such HOWEVER for a trespasser who is there despite your refusal and against your permission, the no booby trap exceptions is likely about the ONLY thing you have to worry about. ALSO In states where contributory negligence is the law of the land, hunting is a inherently dangerous sport so as a matter of law, the hunter has assumed the risk of injury when he goes trampling over rough terrain carrying a gun DUH..............
So many lay persosn are under the false impression that just because an accident happens the landowner is right on liable THATS SIMPLY NOTTTTTTTTT TRUE one has to apply the law to the facts and the entire body of law regarding torts and negligence and work through the entire duty and standard of care issue, if there was a breach of such, and if that was the proximate cause of the injury (All this subject to state statutes) THATS WHAT THE LAW SAYS (theres 10,000 pages in a sentence lol)
NOTE this can NOT be answered (a worthwhile professional opinion rendered at least) here absent a research of your states laws by a trained professional and this is a very complex issue which can not be answered in a few sentences by attorneys or lay persons on a tractor chat board, so this is worth just what you paid NOTHING
THAT BEING SAID it is my unresearched yet professionaly trained opinion based ONLY on what you posted IF YOU GIVE A PERSON NOTICE THEY MAY NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT HUNT ON YOUR LAND (and you dont have any dangerous booby traps set which may injure him) AND THERES AN ACCIDENT (through no fault of yours) YOU WILL NOT BE FOUND LIABLE BY A COURT OF LAW
My fellow co counsels Mike and Dean are probably more current and active in this area of law then myself being semi retired, so if they disagree Id trust their opinions over mine............
John T BSEE, JD retired Country Lawyer
Here is an exerpt from the 2011 WI Hunting Regs.
Liability: Under sec. 895.52 of the Wisconsin Statutes, landowners are generally
immune from liability for injuries received by individuals recreating on their lands.
This law provides liability protection to landowners for injury or death of individuals
participating in outdoor recreation such as fishing, hunting, trapping, hiking, camping,
boating, and berry picking activities on their land. This immunity does not apply when
the landowner receives more than $2,000 a year in income from the recreation activity
or when the landowner acted maliciously with an intent to harm the recreator. There
is also an exception for social guests invited specifically for an occasion on residential
or platted property or property within 300 feet of a commercial building or structure.
Courts have consistently interpreted this statute to protect landowners in furtherance of
its purpose, which is to encourage landowners to allow others to recreate on their lands.
Trespassing: Landowners suspecting that individuals are trespassing on their property
should contact their local Sheriff’s Department or other local law enforcement
agency. Conservation Wardens do not have the authority to investigate trespassing
complaints. Any person convicted of trespassing is subject to a penalty of up to $1,397.50.
According to s. 943.13, of the Wisconsin Statutes, it is illegal to:
• enter land of another without the express or implied consent of the owner or occupant
of the land. This includes railroad tracks and their adjacent property.
• enter or remain on land after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to
enter or remain. A person has received notice from the owner or occupant if he or
she has been notified personally, either orally or in writing, or if the land is posted.
Remember: although hunters are required to make a reasonable effort to retrieve
game they have killed or injured, hunters may not trespass to retrieve such game,
39
even if the game was shot from outside the posted area. Ask first for permission."
Of Course, there will be people that will try to bend the law (interpret) from its intent...
Good luck to all hunting this year!!!
Tim
Liability: Under sec. 895.52 of the Wisconsin Statutes, landowners are generally
immune from liability for injuries received by individuals recreating on their lands.
This law provides liability protection to landowners for injury or death of individuals
participating in outdoor recreation such as fishing, hunting, trapping, hiking, camping,
boating, and berry picking activities on their land. This immunity does not apply when
the landowner receives more than $2,000 a year in income from the recreation activity
or when the landowner acted maliciously with an intent to harm the recreator. There
is also an exception for social guests invited specifically for an occasion on residential
or platted property or property within 300 feet of a commercial building or structure.
Courts have consistently interpreted this statute to protect landowners in furtherance of
its purpose, which is to encourage landowners to allow others to recreate on their lands.
Trespassing: Landowners suspecting that individuals are trespassing on their property
should contact their local Sheriff’s Department or other local law enforcement
agency. Conservation Wardens do not have the authority to investigate trespassing
complaints. Any person convicted of trespassing is subject to a penalty of up to $1,397.50.
According to s. 943.13, of the Wisconsin Statutes, it is illegal to:
• enter land of another without the express or implied consent of the owner or occupant
of the land. This includes railroad tracks and their adjacent property.
• enter or remain on land after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to
enter or remain. A person has received notice from the owner or occupant if he or
she has been notified personally, either orally or in writing, or if the land is posted.
Remember: although hunters are required to make a reasonable effort to retrieve
game they have killed or injured, hunters may not trespass to retrieve such game,
39
even if the game was shot from outside the posted area. Ask first for permission."
Of Course, there will be people that will try to bend the law (interpret) from its intent...
Good luck to all hunting this year!!!
Tim
dont know much about the specifics of the law,but I can tell you how it works in okla( for some strange reason).If you deny access,and person is injured while tresspassing,you CAN be held liable.Your option is to counter sue the tresspasser for willfull tresspass and damages you suffered.IF however you DO grant access,(and it has to be WRITTEN access,NOT verbal, ,DO NOT EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE WHATSOEVER,tell a good buddy,kinfolk,neighbor ,whatever, he can hunt or fish on you WITHOUT EXACT WRITTEN permission,to do so makes you in the eyes of the law an accomplice in whatever they do.or liable for any accidents they may have ,by signing a written paper THEY assume responsibilities for their own actions!!!!.),you cannot be held liable for accidents.this sounded stupid to me ,so i made it a point to ask a old judge i used to know.
The way he explained it to me was,this is designed to encourage land owners to grant access for hunting and fishing.
theoretically because of the written permission laws here,when you do grant access,the hunter is assuming full resposibility for his engaging in a sport that could be dangerous.but if the person was a tresspasser,on your place,its your responsibility to confront him/her,and/or report this to the local authorities,since the tresspass is against YOU,and the state unless game laws are broken is not involved.FAILURE to report,confront,or whatever makes you acomplice!Just as if you knew someone was selling drugs out of your garage and you failed to report it.BUT,I would warn you about confronting directly a person or persons tresspassing on you while hunting,you know they are armed,they know they are wrong,and they quite possibly could get violent when confronted with a fine or jail time.most places i think now have a setup where you can simply get the tag number of their vehicle and turn it in,once reported you are not liable,and it becomes a police matter.NOT neccessarily a matter regarding game officials,unless of course game laws are broken,at which times whatever charges connected with that is in "addition to".since tresspassing breaks no game laws per say,youve got to report this to local civil law officers,often a sheriff in rural areas.he in turn would involve wildlife people.
this was how it was explained to me,by a long time judge..now theres lots of variables here,some would argue that simply posting your land is enough, NOT so. if you have a tresspasser on you ,IMMEDIATLY CALL THE AUTHORITIES!!dont matter if its the neighbors kids,a freind whatever. failure to do so makes you liable ,wether they are simply fishing,or covering up dead bodies!
it sounds kind of stupid,but once you really think about it,it makes a certain amount of sense.
The way he explained it to me was,this is designed to encourage land owners to grant access for hunting and fishing.
theoretically because of the written permission laws here,when you do grant access,the hunter is assuming full resposibility for his engaging in a sport that could be dangerous.but if the person was a tresspasser,on your place,its your responsibility to confront him/her,and/or report this to the local authorities,since the tresspass is against YOU,and the state unless game laws are broken is not involved.FAILURE to report,confront,or whatever makes you acomplice!Just as if you knew someone was selling drugs out of your garage and you failed to report it.BUT,I would warn you about confronting directly a person or persons tresspassing on you while hunting,you know they are armed,they know they are wrong,and they quite possibly could get violent when confronted with a fine or jail time.most places i think now have a setup where you can simply get the tag number of their vehicle and turn it in,once reported you are not liable,and it becomes a police matter.NOT neccessarily a matter regarding game officials,unless of course game laws are broken,at which times whatever charges connected with that is in "addition to".since tresspassing breaks no game laws per say,youve got to report this to local civil law officers,often a sheriff in rural areas.he in turn would involve wildlife people.
this was how it was explained to me,by a long time judge..now theres lots of variables here,some would argue that simply posting your land is enough, NOT so. if you have a tresspasser on you ,IMMEDIATLY CALL THE AUTHORITIES!!dont matter if its the neighbors kids,a freind whatever. failure to do so makes you liable ,wether they are simply fishing,or covering up dead bodies!
it sounds kind of stupid,but once you really think about it,it makes a certain amount of sense.
heres the skinny,and you can look at it any way you want,but most places,even those with some type of law that says you cant be held responsible,
if you DONT report a tresspasser,REGARDLESS,you are technically giving him consent in the eyes of the law. technical bs asside,failure to report is same as consent. and it makes you accomplice.
you MAY convince a jury you werent involved,but technicaly you were.and theres no reason to have to prove otherwise.
granting WRITTEN PERMISSION,with say the permission to hunt such and such a season,or fish a certain time,makes you not liable (unless of course your paid)for that activity ONLY! IF you grant permission to say fish,you go down and the guys kids are swimming that is another matter.they have broken your contract and if they drown they again are responsiblefor allowing their kids to swim instead of fish.
make sure you protect yourself,no one wants to mean to there neighbors,or their kinfolk,but MAKE sure you put it in writing what they are allowed to do.it can be written on a contract all legal,or simply written on a napkin at the coffee shop,makes no difference.
its amazing how often this comes up,if you own land,make sure you protect your self.put it in writing,make sure you know whos on you,prosecute all othersif at all possible.its funny,you folks seem to think this labels you as some type of harda$$ or unfreindly unneighborly.but in fact you would be surprised how fast the word gets around,that if you follow the rules they can gain access.and it wont be very long until those folks comply willingly.
BUT if you give permission to your say brother in law, and you drive by and he has all his buddies from work with him, shut it down ,right then and there.
if you DONT report a tresspasser,REGARDLESS,you are technically giving him consent in the eyes of the law. technical bs asside,failure to report is same as consent. and it makes you accomplice.
you MAY convince a jury you werent involved,but technicaly you were.and theres no reason to have to prove otherwise.
granting WRITTEN PERMISSION,with say the permission to hunt such and such a season,or fish a certain time,makes you not liable (unless of course your paid)for that activity ONLY! IF you grant permission to say fish,you go down and the guys kids are swimming that is another matter.they have broken your contract and if they drown they again are responsiblefor allowing their kids to swim instead of fish.
make sure you protect yourself,no one wants to mean to there neighbors,or their kinfolk,but MAKE sure you put it in writing what they are allowed to do.it can be written on a contract all legal,or simply written on a napkin at the coffee shop,makes no difference.
its amazing how often this comes up,if you own land,make sure you protect your self.put it in writing,make sure you know whos on you,prosecute all othersif at all possible.its funny,you folks seem to think this labels you as some type of harda$$ or unfreindly unneighborly.but in fact you would be surprised how fast the word gets around,that if you follow the rules they can gain access.and it wont be very long until those folks comply willingly.
BUT if you give permission to your say brother in law, and you drive by and he has all his buddies from work with him, shut it down ,right then and there.
massey 333
Member
Doesn't look or sound like anyone here has ever been sued by a hunter or hunters.A few years ago Dad gave a fellow permission to hunt,he was hunting in picked corn stalk ground and tripped and fell shooting himself and later loosing a foot and part of a leg.A SUIT was filed and TWO(2)plus years plus a JURY TRIAL later,the case was settled and dad won.You can be sued for anything regardless of what the law is or says.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I have everything posted no hunting/tresspassing but I still catch people all the time. This one unfortunate time I caught these 3 guys from MN, I did my usual thing and drove out to them, parked so the truck was between me and them, about 30 yards and but the AR 15 on the hood. Start talking, telling it is posted, then I hear their bla bla bla, though it wasn't posted, its CRP anyone can be one it (no and no), we used to be able to hunt here ect. So I said please ground your weapons and face away. Then one at a time on my call, leave your weapon, come put your hunting Lic under my windshield wiper, then walk to the front of the truck 40 yards. When I copy all all your information for the game warden you are free to grab your weapons, the Lic's and leave. I am hearing stories about my brother is a lawyer we will sue, they have 2nd ammendment rights, will call the sheriff, a bribe attempt. One guy got sick, pain in his chest going up his neck and down his arm, can't breath,couldn't stand up, nausia. I said I would go to the farm and send for the Fire Dept and a Ambulance. Unfortunately he passed before they arrived. I guess I wasted those 2 stamps.
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