PTO problem

[Larry Choate]

I recently purchased an early 1950’s model Ferguson tractor. It appears to be a 20 hp unit.
The primary problem is with engaging the power takeoff. When depressing the clutch and engaging the pto lever there is a grinding of gears even with the accelerator at the lowest level. I can force the lever into position but when the pto engages the tractor immediately lurches forward even with the clutch depressed. This occurs only when the bushhog implement is attached. Without an attached implement the pto engages easily without the gear grinding. Also, the clutch doesn’t engage until the foot pedal is within the last 2inches or so from the end of the release. When I depress the clutch all the way to the foot plate I hear and feel in my foot a strong but muffled rumbling sound and vibration from the transmission gears. Also when I lift the 3 pt hitch to its highest point it has that same grinding sound. What is your advice on repairing this problem? Thanks.

 

[Anonymous-0]

This is because you have the bush hog attached. If the bush hog is still spinning, it is essentially driving your PTO, which is geared to your transmission. So, even though the clutch is depressed, your transmission gears will be driven by the spinning PTO as soon as you engage it.

One "fix" for this problem is to get a ratchet attachment for your PTO shaft. This allows the implement that is spinning to continue to spin without actually turning the PTO shaft itself. These are usually available at a farm supply store and slip onto your PTO shaft.

I'm afraid I don't have a clue about the 3 pt. hitch problem.

 

[Jeff-oh]

A couple of questions 1st.

How many gear shift levers do you have?

1- with 4 gears and reverse.
or 2 with one being hi-low range?

Also, when you say it only happens with the bush hog attached are the bush hog blades turning? Or do you have the condition from a dead stop?

The early 1950's Ferguson PTO pumps we're direct driven... meaning that you can power the transmission from by back feeding power from the PTO. Thus, yes the momentum of a turning bush hog can and will drive the transmission and drive wheels. This occurs even with the clutch down.

The fix for this condition is to get what is called an Over-Running Clutch or "ORC" (see picture) the ORC attaches to the PTO at the back and then the Bush hog PTO shaft is attached to the ORC. They run ~ $70.00

If you hear the grinding when the hogg is at a dead stop and no movement then I would suspect an issue with the main clutch adjustment.

Get back with the details and this can be nailed down.

Jeff

 

[John (UK)]

If the Mower is turning at all it will make the PTO gear grind as you try to engage no matter what tractor you have. the tractor lurching like that means that it is being driven by something and that usually is the mower, (it act like a flywheel)or the Clutch . If you mean the clutch only engages in the last 2 inches when you have the mower on the tractor that could be because of the load just starting the mower running. It could also be that the clutch pedal free play needs setting, it should be 3/8" between pedal and underside of footrest. When you press the pedal right down and you get a rumbling, it does depend on the actual noise to be certain, but it could be the Clutch thrust bearing. The sound will be from the Clutch housing which is right behind the engine just in front of the driving position, so it may sound as though it is coming from another point. When the Hydraulics have a heavy weight on them and they lift to the top, if there is a leak on them it will not quite shut off the Pump and it can make a rattling noise if there is a little bit of wear. I can't see the noise coming from the Clutch area if the hydraulics are at the top and if you have your foot off the Clutch, if you do have your foot on the Clutch pedal, it will stop the Pump if you press the pedal right down and there would be no noise from the hydraulics. Do you have any problems engaging the gears at all? If it grinds when you try to engage a gear with the pedal all the way down, the grinding noise could be the Pilot Bearing in the Flywheel seizing up and driving the Transmission. You need to give us a lot more information about the tractor and when the noise happens in the hydraulics, with the clutch pressed down or up, so we can give a realistic assessment.
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[Jeff-oh]

If the Mower is turning at all it will make the PTO gear grind as you try to engage no matter what tractor you have.

That is true of the TE's and TO 20/30's but is it true of the TO-35 and later tractors with the two stage clutch?

Jeff

 

[Larry Choate]

Thanks for the information. The PTO problem I'm referencing is when the bushhog is starting from a dead stop, not spinning. I have a lot of experiencing with mowing with a bushhog and totally understand the momentum issue with an engaged bushhog. The clutch adjustment issue is with or without an implement on it. I think you are correct with the need for making an adjustment to the clutch. The rattling and grinding with the hydraulics seems to occur when there is even light weight implements as well. I used a blade yesterday and when I pushed the lever to the top it would rumble and vibration in an unusual way....I do have some problems with engaging the gearshift, but not too an extreme degree. Putting it into gear is much easier than engaging the PTO.

 

[Larry Choate]

Thanks for the reply. I was referencing the PTO problem from the initial engagement when the bushhog is at a dead still state. As I stated earlier it is difficult to engage the PTO and I have to force it into place. And yes, I have the clutch depressed.

 

[Larry Choate]

The tractor has 2 gear shifts. The small one being for low and high range.

 

[Jeff-oh]

Ok that probally makes it a TO-35. The Data plate on the dash should say.

You can go to the link below and use it to nail down you model. (John (UK) and I were both contributing authors to this work by Paul Nelson)

On the data plate there should be a three letter code in front of the serial number. That code tells the chassie type, engine fuel, and transmission type. The Third letter is of interest. I would suspect it is an "M" for the two stage clutch... This would make since with what you have described.

In essence the two stage clutch disengages the drive train in the initial travel and then in the final 2" (like you described) it disengages the PTO.

Based on your discriptions thus far I think it is a clutch adjustment issue.

Here is my theory (chime in anyone - agree or not)

1) the clutch is mis-adjusted and not fully disengaging the drive train from the transmission/PTO. This explains the grinding when trying to engage the gears or the PTO.

Once the drive train is engaged there is enough friction in the system that the clutch is slipping... i.e. like your riding the clutch.

However, when you go to put in the PTO, The engagement of the PTO transmits enough power, or grabs enough that the drive train gets a momentary surge.

My concern is that each use is causing more damage to the transmission and PTO gears. The noise may be an indication of excessive wear.

I think this needs looking into sooner rather than later.

What are the opinions of everyone else... Does that sound in the ball park or as Click and Clack would say B-O-G-U-S.

I would also say I am not that familiar with the TO-35/F-40 etc to tell how to fix other than take it apart and replace what is needed and adjust what is needed. Though it doe seem you need to get into the guts of the tractor.

The plus is these machines are very easy to work on.

Jeff
How to Identify Ferguson Agricultural Tractors

 

[John UK)]

If there is a lot of free play in the pedal the Clutch will not clear and there will be some drag on the transmission, this will make it hard to engage either the PTO or the main transmission and it would cause the tractor to lurch as you are bringing the Transmission to a stop when you engage gear. If when you adjust the free play in the Clutch Pedal you still have problems engaging gear then there is a possibility that you have some oil on the Clutch plate which will cause it to drag and still be turning the Transmission. Using the tractor in this state will cause wear on the leading edge of the gear teeth in the Transmission and once they do start to wear it will continue to wear rapidly. You should not have any problems engaging gear on either the PTO or the Transmission, if you have, there is something wrong.
The Hydraulics making a noise like that is not unusual, even on a new tractor it could do that, it is just the type of Pump. It is causing no harm, but it can be annoying. The heavier the weight you are trying to lift the worse the noise can be.If the implement drops noticeably when you stop the PTO, this will increase the noise as it is not allowing the Pump to shut off because it is not reaching maximum height due to a leak internally. Using a Blade which is much lighter than a Hog it should stop when it gets to the top, but if there is a leak it won't, so it is always Pumping. This can be due to a blown gasket or bad rings on the Lift Cylinder or a bad check valve
If you would like to investigate the hydraulics for leaks I have a check sheet available that you can use, just email me direct if you need it.....John (UK)....
[email protected]

 

[ken2001]

Can you give us the complete serial number. Based on that we can tell if it has a 2 stage clutch. If it is a 2 stage clutch then it is critical that you depress the clutch pedal all the way to the bottom to stop the pto. Only going part way stops the forward movement. Please let use know.

 

[Larry Choate]

I live in Illinois and the tractor is at my daughter's farm in Kentucky. I will have my son in law get the number. Based on the identifying factors it is a TO 35. I will get back with you on this as soon as possible. Thanks for your assistance.

 

[Larry Choate]

Thanks John. The tractor is in Kentucky and I live in Illinois. I will adjust the clutch the next time I am there. Probably in a couple of weeks. If that doesn't help I will have it worked on by a local mechanic near her home. In the meantime I will advise my son-in-law to limit its usage. Your advice has been most helpful. I will report back when I either fix it or have it fixed.