Re: Case 210B-L trouble-shooting hydraulic system

[ElderRon]

Background - Loader arms won't lift after sitting for a couple of years (single-action rams). 3pt-hitch works (with selector valve in position). Two questions for starters:
1. Hydraulic oil reservoir/dipstick? (See picture) Not sure if this is it or just for the rear-housing? Is the mark at the bottom of the dipstick for FULL or ADD? (Housing is full of oil almost to top).
2. Are the hoses connected right? (two pictures)

 

[Joe (Wa)]

I am getting rained out, looks like the rest of the day isn't going to get any better.

we need to get the tractor assembly I.D. a little better. That is the dipstick for the 4
speed transmission and final drive. Factory oil was about 4 gal SAE 90 gear oil. The The
notch near the bottom of the dipstick is the full mark. The drain plug is under near the
rear axle off-set to the right side.

The transition piece from where the bell housing bolts to the engine block back to where
it bolts to the front of 4 speed transmission is the torque tube. Aside from the drive
shaft, intermediate bearing, and belt pulley gear, the torque tube also houses the
hydraulic pump and on you tractor the triple range gear train. It is also used as the
hydraulic reservoir, approx 3 gal hydraulic oil or may have the SAE 10 motor oil or Type A
ATF pending owner preference. The drain plug is on the torque tube aft bottom immediately
in front of where it bolts to the 4 speed transmission.

This is 310 utility tractor which is the same here as your 210B, disregard the hand
clutch. Check the dipstick attached to the bottom of that 1/4 pipe plug. If the hydraulic
level is very low that may be the reason the lift cylinders do not work. Lift cylinders
require considerably more oil than the Eagle hitch cylinder. If the torque tube is very
low we need to discuss where it went if not external leak.

No it is not piped correctly, not saying it will not work as is if it had functioned
before. SA systems are designed to use the same line as supply and return. You system
appears to be dumping the return oil back to the torque tube reservoir as teed into the
fill hole. This defeats the function of the safety interlock and by-passes the return oil
filter. This pic is the oil filter housing on the left side of the tractor under the gas
tank. The original element can be cleaned and reused.

 

[Joe (Wa)]

I am still trying to get my head around the piping arrangement. There is too much hose missing in your pics to trace the routing arrangement. It looks like pressure supply from the interlock to the loader control valve and then down to the selector valve. With selector valve in the loader position the Eagle hitch lever would have to be in the raised position to stroke the control valve and provide pressure to the loader valve via the interlock and the return would enter the torque tube via the tee on the fill hole. Is that how you were operating the loader?

Joe

This post was edited by Joe (Wa) on 04/26/2023 at 06:12 pm.

 

[Stephen Newell]

I have a 1959 210BH and my plumbing is different. I have a #21 front loader on mine which has a different control block so that may account for the difference. Mine has one lever which works the lift arms and another to operate the bucket. Also the dipstick on mine is on the opposite side than the fill port.

The first thing I would do is change the hydraulic fluid and clean the screen filter. After a couple years sludge may have settled in the screen and could have gotten water in it, if only condensation.

 

[ElderRon]

YES, correct terms make everything so much clearer. Great pics -
Thanks again for sticking with me on this -
Kind of wet around here now too. I hope to get back at it soon enough and will check the hyd.oil level and filter for the torque tube; drain the transmission and final drive housing to appropriate level; and I think you may have clarified some of the things I was puzzled about the hyd. lines.

Part of my problem is jumping in on this as a "project" without having operated the tractor myself before. Looked simple enough, and according to the story behind it, the loader "worked' with this set up. In between that and being parked, the loader was "removed" for the paint job. I will have to check over the fittings and see which were removed and which still have the new paint... I cropped another pic to show more hose, and will also include one showing the split for the lift arms. NOTE: the bucket is only a trip-dump cable.

BONUS - now I also know about the Hand Clutch lever on the left... operating tips? ... engages belt pulley?

(quoted from post at 17:04:35 04/26/23) I am getting rained out, looks like the rest of the day isn't going to get any better.

we need to get the tractor assembly I.D. a little better. That is the dipstick for the 4
speed transmission and final drive. Factory oil was about 4 gal SAE 90 gear oil. The The
notch near the bottom of the dipstick is the full mark. The drain plug is under near the
rear axle off-set to the right side.

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto153287.jpg>

The transition piece from where the bell housing bolts to the engine block back to where
it bolts to the front of 4 speed transmission is the torque tube. Aside from the drive
shaft, intermediate bearing, and belt pulley gear, the torque tube also houses the
hydraulic pump and on you tractor the triple range gear train. It is also used as the
hydraulic reservoir, approx 3 gal hydraulic oil or may have the SAE 10 motor oil or Type A
ATF pending owner preference. The drain plug is on the torque tube aft bottom immediately
in front of where it bolts to the 4 speed transmission.

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto153288.jpg>

This is 310 utility tractor which is the same here as your 210B, disregard the hand
clutch. Check the dipstick attached to the bottom of that 1/4 pipe plug. If the hydraulic
level is very low that may be the reason the lift cylinders do not work. Lift cylinders
require considerably more oil than the Eagle hitch cylinder. If the torque tube is very
low we need to discuss where it went if not external leak.

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto153289.jpg>

No it is not piped correctly, not saying it will not work as is if it had functioned
before. SA systems are designed to use the same line as supply and return. You system
appears to be dumping the return oil back to the torque tube reservoir as teed into the
fill hole. This defeats the function of the safety interlock and by-passes the return oil
filter. This pic is the oil filter housing on the left side of the tractor under the gas
tank. The original element can be cleaned and reused.

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto153290.jpg>

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto153291.jpg>

 

[ElderRon]

Since Joe pointed out where the filter is, I will check.
Can you describe where your arm lift control lines go? Do you have a 3pt-hitch too? How is that plumbed?
Thx, Ron

 

[13fx]

I had a loader tractor that I
bought that had sat for an
unknown number of years. It had
2 way rams and it wouldn't move.
It turned out that from sitting
the Pistons had rusted up a bit
inside. Trying to load it onto a
friend's trailer the seller had
accidentally rammed the darn
thing into my friends trailer.
He wasn't to pleased, but the
rams broke free, so I was. I
live on the dry side of Wa and
I'm amazed at how much
precipitation we are getting.
Hoping last Friday was the end
of the snow for is though.

 

[Joe (Wa)]

As I wrote before the safety interlock has been defeated and the return oil filter I pictured has been eliminated by routing the
return oil into the torque tube fill hole vice back through the safety interlock. So don't waste your time with the filter now.

What I want you to do now is check the torque tube hydraulic oil level. Post a pic of the dipstick so I know it is the correct
one. If the level is lower than low mark on the stick get some hydraulic oil and fill to proper level.

Iam having trouble uploading pics. If you need pic of pump shifter or others check your earlier posts.

When torque tube oil level is satisfactory follow thes steps:

1. Check the hyd pump shifter in the engaged position, all the way in, tap it to be sure.

2. Check the selector valve in the loader position.

3. Start the engine, warm up and run at high idle.

4. Put the Eagle hitch lever by the seat in the raise position and hold it there to stroke the control valve.

5. Put the loader control valve in the raise position. If no lift shift the lever to lower position in case hose is hooked up
wrong port

 

[used red MN]

Does the snap ring on the end of the spool I circled in
you picture ever get pulled down against the body of
the valve? If you pull that selector spool down to
operate the loader there is a chance you are not
moving it far enough. Push it up and get some fine
emery cloth and clean the paint off the spool. Then
give it a few drops of hydraulic fluid around it and turn
the knob back and forth a bit. Then pull the spool
down so the snap ring down against the body and see
what happens. Maybe down is the direction to operate
the 3 point in that case I am full of breeze.

 

[ElderRon]

[b:cb7de28f50]We have lift-off![/b:cb7de28f50]
I found the hydraulic oil dipstick (thx Joe) and level was low so topped off.
[u:cb7de28f50]The 5-steps you suggested worked to get the loader arms to lift[/u:cb7de28f50], [b:cb7de28f50]BUT ONLY if I keep holding the EH lever?[/b:cb7de28f50] I worked it up and down lots, and it lifts and drops smoothly. However, when I try to switch back to the EH on the selector valve, the loader arms drop.
My observation is that the EQ "linkage" between the lever beside the seat and the "fork" that positions the valve under the gas tank may possibly be wonky? Is there neutral (3-positions), or just in and out? It seems to be inconsistent or not fully extending. I played with the adjustment a bit but my problem is that I don't know how it once worked, or is supposed to? (in general, I'm only guessing here because I truly know nothing about 3-pt hitch settings and operation).

Still stumped? Here's a pic showing more hyd. hose from the side.

 

[Joe (Wa)]

The control valve has 3 positions with neutral in the center when the EH lever is straight up and the linkage slack. That is why you have to the put the EH lever in the raised position to stroke the control valve spool and supply pressure to the system. The bent EH linkage is very suspect, probably forced tied down to supply constant oil pressure.

I can't see how your system can work as is or in changing the hoses around by viewing the pics. Additionally dumping the return oil back through the torque tube cover by-passes the return oil filter, the safety interlock is defeated and that could be trouble if the EH or loader drops on someone.

I would try this arrangement. The hose I marked would be connected to the inlet of the selector valve and branch out from there one hose to the EH and one hose to the tee that connects to the loader lift cylinders. With that arrangement there is supply and return for the loader and EH pending the position of the selector valve and EH lever. This SA system is pressure lift and gravity lowered.

You have everything you need there now to do that. It eliminates the loader control valve and the oil return dump to the torque tube. You may have to buy a new selector valve if any doubt it is leaking internally.

Mark the position of the hoses as they are connected now, take some more pics so you can put them back as is if you decide to keep the present arrangement.

 

[ElderRon]

Joe, with your help I think I'm beginning to understand what I have here. Thx. I will look at adjusting the EH linkage.

Apparently the EH and the Loader should work independently (one or the other, not together). Thinking out loud, BEFORE I do what you have suggested, [u:a5cbf90a43]in order to "restore" the interlock safety function[/u:a5cbf90a43] would it also be OK (or better?) to:
1. Eliminate the torque tube by-pass and re-route that hose to the left-hand inside port of the "levered" loader control valve (LC) [IN] where the existing hose you marked is?
2. Plug-off the right-hand outside LC port [OUT] to eliminate the hose connecting it to the selector control valve (SC) [IN] where you have suggested the hose you marked [coming from the pump control] (PC) should go?
3. Leave the existing hose connected "as is" from the top of the LC going to the loader lift rams (split)?

In this manner, will stroking the LC lever still provide the bi-directional flow required to raise and lower the loader, as well as operate the EH according to the position of the SC?

I will attach a "schematic" about this with some pics. Your comments and suggestions are welcome.
Ron

 

[Joe (Wa)]

The system will only operates the loader or the EH not both simultaneously, pending the position of the selector valve.

I can't zoom your attachment clear enough to fully understand your changes but you will still need the EH lever to stroke the control valve while using the LC to operate the loader (in this instant don't think of it as EH lever rather as a means of providing pump pressure).

I don't have time to address this now, maybe tonight. It would be helpful if you could make a simple one line drawing with components or I will do it later so we are on the same page. The purpose here is to prevent the chance of the pump in irons and running on the relief valve.

 

[ElderRon]

[b:c1b0b574bd]YES, I don't want to blow up something!
Would you perhaps have a simple schematic that indicates how the system is supposed to be plumbed? The "interlock" and EH linkage has me baffled.
I'm going to take another look at it early in the morning.

Question on my mind: For SA:
IF the "return" is integral to the PC for either the EH or LD, then does the corrective schematic look something like:
PC > SC [branched] for EH (remains as is); or for LD > LC[/b:c1b0b574bd] (plug-off / eliminates need for existing hose between LC & SC?)

 

[Joe (Wa)]

I've had a chance to think about the revision. As the lines are now routed the LC is providing a path to recirc the pump from A to B and down to the TT dump connection. If you plug LC port B the only recirc will be within the unstroked control valve spool. The EH lever still has to stroke the control valve for pump press, you will still have to use both levers to operate the loader.

That works so far but along the line you or a buyer will tie down the EH lever during a prolonged loader revolution and leave it there long enough without moving the lift cylinders to put the pump in relief. The pump will warm up while in relief and may get hot enough to damage or destroy it. The pump is in the torque tube mounted on the underside of control valve plate mostly above the oil level so there will be very little heat dissipation to the oil reservoir.

Go ahead and post a one line dwg with components so we will have a better look at the present system and any proposed revisions.

Also follow this link. It is a later 530 than yours but the comment you made about transmission being overfull near the top, if it wasn't water, is the same problem. Anytime the torque tube is low on hydraulic oil w/o external leaks and the transmission oil level is up, the hydraulic oil has migrated to the transmission usually via EH piston seal leakage or the PTO shaft seal in the final drive void. Can also leak in front of transmission but that is rare. Your high oil level is more like EH piston seals than PTO shaft seal but can be both and probably is.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t 1618713&sid 322eb885bda3894c6528faeb5dc6449a

 

[ElderRon]

What about the SC valve function? As is, the hose from B to tt Dump (as you have marked) goes directly to [IN] on the selector valve and actually only "by-passes" into the torque tube through the upper port (LD) when designated by the SC valve. The lower port allows the EH to operate. Maybe that's NOT how the EH is supposed to be plumbed originally?... blows out the inner seals?... causes the pump to go into "relief"... everything stops working

I will follow up on your link.

 

[ElderRon]

Hi Joe,
Does this schematic help?
Ron

 

[Joe (Wa)]

(quoted from post at 05:41:44 05/01/23)
Hi Joe,
Does this schematic help?
Ron

No, the schematic does not help. Too much junk for me to get my head around this morning. I need a simple one line drawing with components. Pics showing the complete hose routing is ok too, I can figure out the overall function or lack there of. In my day job I use to tell my smart sheet assistant engineers to KISS (keep it simple stupid).

I don't see any way that the loader control valve can be safely added to a SA system when the EH (control valve stroke lever) is required to provide hydraulic pressure for the loader and EH functions.

I will try to make up a drawing that I wrote about above showing the way I would pipe this system. It probably won't be until Wed.

In the meantime it is your tractor try moving the hoses around maybe you will come up with a way to keep the loader control in the circuit bearing in mind that the hydraulic supply pressure and return oil must enter the intertlock in the same fitting for the safety feature and to filter the return oil.

In a furture post I will post pics and description of how the SA interlock functions if it is necessary. In the meantime post a pic of the outside surface of the interlock showing the fitting and bolt spacing so I can see if it is mounted correctly.

 

[ElderRon]

Yep, mine is spinning too. No excuses for my inability to figure this out without moving a few hoses, but I've not been able to get back to the tractor since I lifted the arms (with your 5-step help), and for sure the pics I have are inadequate.

In the process of me trying to understand how the EH linkage functions to operate the pump control or "interlock", the stroke lever beside the seat broke (not the first time by the look of it). I'm having it repaired at the moment and hope to fiddle some more ASAP.

QUESTION: Is what I have been referring to as the "pump control" (PC) actually what you are calling the "interlock", or is that something internal?

I'll take more pics, in particular from the LH side at the back under the gas tank. showing where the EH linkage operates the valve (3-positions). Besides the bottom valve with the disconnect tab at the front, I'm pretty sure the only other fitting is what I have been calling the "pressure" line on the other side, which is connected to the LC (A-B as shown in 1). I'll try to get a picture head on from the front too. Then we can compare notes and better clarify the layout of the components.
Thx for sticking with me

 

[Joe (Wa)]

I don't have a good pic of a control valve and my tractor has 2 control valves and interlocks, one on top of the other, it is too cluttered up to get a good pic. This a cut away view of the control valve, SA interlock on the top and return oil filter to the right side. The red circle is where the EH linkage connects to a bellcrank and moves the spool horizontally in, neutral, or out to direct the oil pump output to the raise, neutral, or lower ports directing oil to/from the interlock. You'll understand better when I get back & into the SA interlock function with pics.

For the face pic of your interlock just post a pic like this. I need to see the spacing of the 4 bolts to know if it is mounted correctly, many of them are not and it impedes the function some, eatter to get it right. I don't use the SA hydraulics on this tractor so I just plugged it off and put EH draft arms, linkages, and hose on a shelf in the shop. It easier to get on and off the tractor without climbing over unused obstacles.