replacing rotted barn beams

[Anonymous-0]

I have some rotted cross beams(8x12"x18' logs) in old tobacco barn. (These are the beams the floor boards lay on.) Has any body tried bolting, or nailing pressure treated lumber together to construct replacements? I cannot get my skid loader into building and the weight of steel beams or replacement logs will be a real problem. TIA

 

[Zachary Hoyt]

When I framed our little sawmill barn I built a beam for the sawmill opening which was 18' across. I could only saw 17' logs and I needed 19' to reach onto the posts so I used aspen(popple) 2x10 and overlapped them. I didn't have a loader then so I had to build the beam in place. It was a challenge but it turned out OK and with a helper it would have been pretty easy. I nailed the boards together and also used construction adhesive. It has held up under 2' or more of snow on occasions. It has been there since 2008.
Zach

 

[Michael Soldan]

Well, I have replaced beams in my barn that are in the ceiling using a loader,chains and jacks. If you can slide new log beams,get one end in the building, pick up the other end and drive forward slowly sliding it into place,some prying and some man power should do it.Re making beams,yes I constructed some as well using 2"x 12"x 20's. I used construction grade glue between each piece.Using three planks and a waffer of 3/4th plywood between the second and third, lots of spikes. That beam is likely stronger than the original.The plywood takes any flex out of the beam,you could put plywood between each if you wish although not likely necessary. Pressure treated would work well for your application since it is a floor.The ends should sit on a cinderblock dug in to the right height so they don't rot. Good luck!

 

[funky_g00]

I have not tried it with pressure treated lumber, but I did do it with LVL's to your same dimensions. They worked perfectly I simply jacked one into place at a time and fastened it. Then repeated this to get 3 fastened together to form the 8x12x18 beam. Treated lumber should work as well, I went with the LVL's because they span farther without support, hold more weight and less likely to twist, but they are 3 times the price of lumber. Do what the checkbook will allow.

 

[showcrop]

I have done the same as M Soldan. I believe that the glue is very important so that you are making a beam that is much stronger than one from one piece with no lamination.

 

[hd6gtom]

not trying to hijack anyones post, but Zack sure would like to see pictures of your finished set up on the mill

 

[Tom in TN]

Zachary,

That is one fine looking building. Congratulations on your accomplishment.

Tom in TN

 

[JDemaris]

I've repaired many, up to 24 foot spans. Around here, many old barns are post & beam, and floor supports are often big hand-hewn beams on approx. four-foot centers.

I've done it just as you mentioned. Slid in new boards along side and bolted together.

Adding four or five 2" X 12" boards (if planed 1.5" X 11 1/4") will make it just as strong as before, if not stronger. You just have to make sure you use high-strength wood. Here in NY, all our pressure-treated comes from down south and is milled from Southern Yellow pine - a very strong wood. The original hand-hewn beams are often beech, hemlock, white pine, or white ash.

Sometimes the problem is getting what you want long enough. I've special ordered it up to 24' long. The local mills in my town can only make lumber 18' long.

Just remember, the wood species is very important. You don't want to use standard S-P-F wood if it's white pine or spruce. Doug Fir, or Southern Yellow Pine much stronger.

 

[Lou from Wi.]

DJ. When my Dad and I built my sisters home, we did the floor Joist building as strong as possible. what we did was construct the joist using 2X12X14
with 1/2" plywood inserts (between the joist) edge ways ,glued the plywood to the 2x12 and nailed it also using coping nails. As long as the plywood is used edge ways (sandwiched in between) it is almost impossible to break the plywood .sure makes one he-- of a beam. Can drive a tank on em and not break em in two. We made a lot of trusses that way with out any failure EVER. Works for us. .
Victor,( LOU'S Son )

 

[Ken Macfarlane]

Actually plywood is weaker than a normal stick of wood because half the grain is sticking up and down, the wrong direction to do any good.

Just laminate regular lumber.

 

[Ed the wine farmer]

We rebuilt the floor in the hayloft last year. Two of the beams were warped and had to be replaced with 4 x 10s. The trick is to get the floor level. We used string lines to determine the thickness of shim boards that go on TOP of the beams. It took us about a week, but we wound up with a new floor. The types of wood that were in the barn were whatever grew on the property when they built the barn. We used hemlock because that"s what is available locally. Don"t forget to put dust boards under the cracks of your new floor! Keeps downstairs cleaner. -- Ed

 

[farmerjohn]

You don't lift replacement logs, you maneuver them with bars, winches, jacks, or whatever works. I used barn timbers when I built my house, I set 12" x 12" x 28' timbers by myself; set one on the wall with the forklift, rolled and slid them into place with a canthook and posthole bar. Just be carefull!

 

[Lou from Wi.]

Ken,
Did you actually try to bend 1/2 plywood 2" wide and try to break it edge ways, it wont break.It will break flat,but on the edge its almost impossible. They are making floor joists with blandex,which I personally don't trust,used to work for LP,where it was made,Blandex when it gets any moisture,it will delaminate or expand,which weakens the structure of it.Plywood is definitely stronger than that.Sometime if your disbelieving and have nothing else to do try the above with plywood,but it has to be on edge,and don't bend it like a bow.We used plywood for headers for doors,windows and beams between 2X's for years,never had any of them sag,or bow. some of the newer ideas for headers and beams work ok on paper,but have no place in the real applications, seen windows break and doors jam from newer header designs.
Victor(LOU's Son)

 

[larry@stinescorner]

I would like to second that compliment, fine job Zack

 

[IOWA NORTHEAST]

I'm the only carpender around that does that anymore, and it is not a big deal usualy. Notice up above your head in the upper part, there are rafters or another beam. String a little log chain dead center, and take up a couple floor boards in the center of your beam. Use a little 1/2 ton chain hoist to lift the replacment beam up in place, then use a small jack to lift it the last few inches due to the floor is most likley sagged down a bit.

If you choose to laminate, we use home sawn 4" along side. We made a tool that is a 2 inch pipe 8 ft long with a 1 1/2 inch seven foot pipe inside it. Weld a finger on it so you can lock it over the 4 inch piece, and twist it into position with all the leverage you can use. We have been known to use a skid loader with a short piece of chain in order to get the leverage to snap them in. No jacks needed, then sledge hammer them tight.

Last year a farmer had me tear out a barn wall, and we used a 14 x 16 inch RR timber 28 ft long to hold the barn up while doing this. The farmer had his cousins, and friends (six total) come around nine AM to help carry it in and hold it up while we got the jacks under it. I drilled a 2 inch hole in the floor of the haymow, and placed a chain hoist, and a 3/16 cable downward from the mow over head.
By 8:30 the hired man had it up into position by cranking the chain hoist. When they all got there, you could not see the cable because we had screwed a small board over it so they could not see the cable, and we told them we lifted it by ourselves, probably four of them still think that today yet. Five out of the six guys were afraid of anything thy could not pick up and throw.

 

[Brad Buchnan]

If anyone thinks that all "green wood" is southern yellow pine they are living in fantasy land. It is for ground contact and is probably one of the poorest choices for constructing a composite beam.

12 or 14 by doug fir if you can get it...laminate with 1/8 galv steel plate.. through bolt with carriage bolts.

Many times stronger. If great Gramp could have done it that way..he would have.

Brad

 

[JDemaris]

I don't know who you think considers all treated wood is milled from southern yellow pine? Certainly wasn't me.

Here in NY all structural treated wood that I've seen in the past 40 years has all been southern yellow pine, if certified. As I stated earlier. southern yellow pine is in the same "strength" group as Douglas Fir. Local uncertified treated posts made locally are sometimes made from yellow pine.

Ormamental treated wood (certified) is usually Canadian Hemlock in this area.

Not all wood can respond to pressure treatent, but I do know there are 3-4 others used in other parts of the country.

 

[Jeff NWOH]

Not sure if this will help or not. I am working on replacing some sagging wood beams in my basement with steel. These beams are 24' long.

Knocked a block out where they needed to go and set up my engine hoist with a roller on the end of the boom about halfway in to catch them.

Slid them in with the skidsteer and used the engine hoist to keep them up and guide them into place. Once I was set up, we could get one under the house in 10 min or so.

 

[Brad Buchnan]

Well I guess I am guilty of trying to shed some light on a subject that I have personal knowledge of.

Pressure treated lumber has poisons injected in it to prohibit insect damage and to some degree rot from ground contact.

Pressure treating never made a piece of lumber any stronger.

"Not all wood can respond to pressure treatent"..True, but indeed the 'wood' that the green lumber is marketed to is the kind that drive brand-new pickups with custom wheels and stainless steel v-plows and get their info from salesmen.

Brad

 

[JDemaris]

I still don't understand what point you're trying to make. I've been doing construction work for near 50 years - and I also know a little about it. If you think your knowledge on the sujbect is somehow superior . . you are mistaken.

Did anybody say anything about pressure-treating making wood stronger? Not me. That makes me wonder just what the heck your point is.

The guy that started this post mentioned pressure-treated. I assume because he wants something rot-resistant AND strong.

In my area of New York we can't get structural-grade southern-yellow-pine 2" boards except in the treated version. 1" boards for stair-treads, yes. So, if I want a strong 2" x 12" - buying pressure treated boards is the easiest way to get strong wood. If I could buy non-treated - that often would be my choice instead. Dryer, lighter, no corrosion problems, and cheaper. 20-30 years ago, we used to special order Douglas Fir- but the local lumberyard doesn't get it anymore. Got too expsnsive. Sometimes we sawed local trees instead.

Just so happens that Doug Fir and Southern Yellow Pine are similar in structural strength.

Now, in regard to your seemingly angry "green lumber" statements? Much of the newest treated lumber is now clear - i.e. not green. There have been many treatment changes since CCA got dropped in exposed consumer use. ACQ was big for a while, and now a new, less corrosive treatment with no color is getting common.

I don't care what color it is. If I want good rot resistance, I usually have to special order treated wood since the stuff now stocked locally is only lightly treated. When I need construction-grade treated 3/4" plywood for foundations, or below-grade 6" X 6" - I have to order them with the higher level of treatment.

And, if stength is the issue - it doesn't take a genius to read the label and make sure it's SYP (southern yellow pine).

#1 highest-strengh woods include . . Douglas Fir, Southen Yellow Pine, White Ash, Beech, White Oak, Red Oak, Elm, Hard Maple, Black Locust, Yellow Birch, and Pignut Hickory (probably the strongest).

If I want planed certified kiln-dried lumber from the lumber yard - for high strength - treated Southern Yellow Pine is the only one carried in stock. That treatment doesn't make it any stonger OR weaker.

 

[Brad Buchnan]

My problem?? If my memory serves me me correctly the issue was constructing a beam to hold weight at low cost.

For me the only choice would be steel.

Below grade? Concrete.

My problem?? Infants and small children playing on picnic tables and lawn furniture constructed from pressure treated lumber...Wikipeda that scooter.

It is a character flaw in myself theat I am intolerant of apparant huberis...

I apaologise to you and all if you are a shut-in and have no other outlet.

Brad

 

[charles todd]

I agree with Brad B, Steel would be my 1st choice. If you take two channel iron pieces the width you need and weld them web-to-web, you talk about strong! 11" or 12" C-iron would be #1 weld like this. ][ .

Good luck,
CT

 

[JDemaris]

I still have no idea what you are muttering about. Especially my alledged "huberis" as you put it. Or . . do you mean "hubris?"

The incipient poster on this thread asked. . "has any body tried bolting, or nailing pressure treated lumber together to construct replacements " for barn floor joists.

He then got many replies.

You started spouting off in my direction about pressure treating wood NOT being inherently strong, without being provoked in any way that I can read.

Note I never said anything about "pressure treated" wood being intrinsically strong.

What I DID say is that Southern Yellow Pine is strong.

Note also it was YOU that jumped in to this forum at started making irrelevant statements, not me.

If anything . . . seems it is your pride that has blinded YOU, i.e. "huberis" as you spell it.

Correct word perhaps; just pointed at the wrong person.

By the way, what on earth does "small children playing on picnic tables" have to do with repairing a tobacco barn floor? Do your kids play under your barn floor-boards and chew on the timbers?

 

[Brad Buchnan]

My apologies....You are indeed the master of all things computer-board related!! Gas, Diesel, Electrical, Philisophical...You are the dude!!!

By the way, My son is 6'5" 270 lbs. and chews on any thing he bloody well wants!

Sorry I rattled your ever so delicate cage.

Brad

 

[Brian Jasper co. Ia]

I third it, motion carried. That is an excellent job Zack. I wish I had that sort of carpentry/construction skill.

 

[pja]

I did exactly what you are proposing last summer in the "big" barn at the farm. Replaced some rotted 6"x12"x16" beams with 6- 2x6 rough sawn white ash, laminated with construction adhesive and through bolted every 2" with 1/2" all thread. I could put the new ones in by mysself, worked real good.

 

[charles todd]

I replied once about steel, and that was my first thought. 2nd thought was a product we make at the plant I'm at. I work for Weyerhauser and we make LVL headers and I-Joist for projects like that. Call around at your local lumer yards and custom home builder wholesalers for the product. A LVL header will out perform 2X's sandwiched by plywood and span further.

CT

 

[rustyj14]

I had to remove an 8x12 deck, constructed of 2x4's, 2x12s, and 6x6 posts. Had to be done, to add onto our home.
then, i had to put it up in another location, in the back of house.
So, how to do it? The builder had taken it down with a back-hoe bobcat.
So, i measured where the posts would go, dug the holes, and put bricks in the bottoms for the posts to set on. I had measured carefully for that part. Then, i got a couple guys to help drag it into place.It was heavy. I called my son to come help, but he never came, so i did it myself!
then, i removed several floor boards, stuck the posts down thru them, and nailed temporary cross pieces to keep them from tilting. Before doing that, i had drilled the tops of the posts, and installed pieces of 3/4 inch steel pipe thru the holes. When all was ready, i hooked up 4 cable come-alongs to each post and thru the floor boards to chains around the joists, and very carefully jacked each one several clicks, and when it was going well, i continued on, until the deck was slightly higher than where i wanted it. I then nailed and bolted everything together, took out the come-alongs, re-installed the floor boards, and it was done!
Here it is, some thirty five years later, and it is still sturdy. It is bolted to the side sill under the house wall, too.
About an hour after i got done, my son came, and said we'd better get to the deck job. After he got over his shock at seeing it up and in place, he wanted to know who had helped. It made a good impresshion on his mind when i told him i did it myself! And i didn't tell him how, until much later!