Running Johnny Poppers on cheap fuels (theoretically)

[pmarkel]

With it being winter, I have a little more time to think about some more abstract project ideas (my mind wanders while I am shoveling manure or splitting wood)...Lately I have been thinking about the old John Deere all fuel tractors that would, when up to temperature, burn "stove top fuels".

My question is, keeping in mind I probably will not undertake this project anytime soon (especially while gasoline is RELATIVELY cheap) what alterations would be necessary to make say a JD 60 or 70 gasoline model burn cheap mixtures of fuel, say 50-50 gas and used cooking oil?

My understanding is that up till about 1947 all JDs would have been considered "all fuel" and that the company continued to build all fuel models for some time with the greatest difference btwn models being a hot manifold, lower compression pistons, slightly different carburetor, and different spark plugs.
And while a few all fuel early numbered series tractors remain in existence they tend to be more pricey, i.e. the last all fuel 70 I saw on craigslist was $7000+ (Pennsylvania).

Now I wonder whether a gasoline model 60 or 70, or other comparable model, might be made to burn low cost fuels with a few non-permanent alterations. Such alterations might include:

1) Hot manifold OR setting the heat exchange valve for cold weather operation to preheat the heavy fuel as it is drawn into the engine.

2)Use of a higher range thermostat, say one that begins to open at 180 and is fully open at about 200.

3) Addition of an auxilary gasoline only fuel tank connected to carburetor, AND insertion of fuel shut off valves between both fuel tanks and sediment bowl/carburetor.

4)Use of spark plugs recommended for all fuel operation.

5)Keeping crankcase oil level about a quart extra full and periodically draining off excess through test cock to compensate for the dilution that heavy fuel use causes.

6)Lower compression pistons? (Not sure if any still are in manufacture or whether it would be wholy necessary since a 60 year old tractor is bound to be lower in compression now than when it left the factory unless it has been reconditioned recently.


Let me know your thoughts or if anyone has attempted this. Not trying to waste anyone's time here but curious about the idea of running the old JDs on cheap fuel since I am not nearly old enough to remember a time that gas was under $1 per gallon. And while I realize that waste oil blends probably lend themselves to diesel engine applications more readily I would rather fool around with a $2000 JD 60 than a $10000 4020 where the consequence of messing up an engine is far more costly.

Thanks,

Pete

 

[Bob]

I think you have "most of the bases covered" 'cept the reality that the cheap refinery byproduct fuel called "distillate" is not readily available anymore AND the fact that "back in the day" tractors running it were WORKING their guts out and warmed up/HOT, and water injection was commonly used.

I'll be just FINE imagining how all this worked, GOOD LUCK recreating it, and I hope it goes well for you.

When you get that perfected, mite as well move on to the next best (CHEAP) thing, propane-powered tractors. At least, that fuel is still available!

 

[machineryman1945]

(quoted from post at 21:48:13 12/21/18) I think you have "most of the bases covered" 'cept the reality that the cheap refinery byproduct fuel called "distillate" is not readily available anymore AND the fact that "back in the day" tractors running it were WORKING their guts out and warmed up/HOT, and water injection was commonly used.

I'll be just FINE imagining how all this worked, GOOD LUCK recreating it, and I hope it goes well for you.

When you get that perfected, mite as well move on to the next best (CHEAP) thing, propane-powered tractors. At least, that fuel is still available!

The use of this fuel is labor intensive than diesel...takes at leaset 180 degree temperature for a gas/distalite tractor to burn the fuel...need to start on gas switch over at that temperature then back to gas as it cools off...all old technology did this...get you about a dozen sets of plugs to change out when you fail to remember this...have a throttle where you will not be able to shut down while using distalite….I think your ideal is a little wishful thinking but if you want to do it...get an unstyle B or A with the two tanks and go to it...be sure not to switch over till 180 or you'll foul out....from experience starting driving an old 44 B of my Uncles at age 10 and he was very instructive about the temperature before switching over. Also your crankcase will need to be drained down as low grade will fill it with unburned....it was an complicated operation.

 

[David G]

Bottom line, why would you want less performance?

 

[David from Kansas]

Don't understand the comment made about overfilling the crankcase with oil. I grew up on JD A and D tractors in the 1950-60 era and don't ever recall this ever being an issue.

 

[pmarkel]

(quoted from post at 21:48:13 12/21/18) Bob, how did water injection work? My understanding is that water was used to prevent predetonation of heavy fuels under load because it brought the temperature of combustion down. Was this injection system a function of the carburetor? It seems I remember hearing that some of the early Deeres used this but not the later letter series or numbered tractors? As far as fuel sources go, what would be wrong with used cooking/vegetable oil blended with gasoline and doped with octane boost. Thanks for input,

Pete

 

[Fordy20]

I guess I wonder why? I have a 1949 G that I bought from a retired farmer that bought it in 1961. According to the manual it had 38 belt hp The farmer said when he got it he installed M & W pistons, gas manifold etc. He said it produced around 75 hp on the dyno after the changes.

 

[Geoff Mathews]

I ran all fuel john Deeres, Fords,and Fergusons for
many years. Gas(petrol) was too expensive to use.
1) the manifold design is very important - JD was
the best due to very short distance from heat
exchanger to cylinder
2) Fergusons really benefited from a hot thermostat
- 190 maybe
3) a drain on the carb is essential to ensure carb
contains only gas when starting
4) long reach hot plugs really help on light work
5) I never put excess oil in - often fuel condensate
would accumalat in sump leaving the oil with the
consistency of water resulting in ring and bore wear
6) lamp oil engines had compression ratio of 4.5:1 &
kerosine (TVO) 5.5:1. If too high detonation can
cause con rod to come thro side of block - saw a
few fords do this.

Low compression pistons will be essential

 

[machineryman1945]

(quoted from post at 12:08:10 12/23/18) I ran all fuel john Deeres, Fords,and Fergusons for
many years. Gas(petrol) was too expensive to use.
1) the manifold design is very important - JD was
the best due to very short distance from heat
exchanger to cylinder
2) Fergusons really benefited from a hot thermostat
- 190 maybe
3) a drain on the carb is essential to ensure carb
contains only gas when starting
4) long reach hot plugs really help on light work
5) I never put excess oil in - often fuel condensate
would accumalat in sump leaving the oil with the
consistency of water resulting in ring and bore wear
6) lamp oil engines had compression ratio of 4.5:1 &
kerosine (TVO) 5.5:1. If too high detonation can
cause con rod to come thro side of block - saw a
few fords do this.

The excess unburning of distalate found it's way into the crankcase...maybe by blow by and would build up...maybe it was due to wear in the engine or other factors and may not have been normal...but also I remember with the cast iron pistons the engine had a lot of torque and was more difficult to choke out....the exhaust manifold was the large preheating type...as I also remember the distalate was a heavier like oiler fuel and I suppose the reason for lower compression was to avoid the pre ignition knocking. I also remember it was pretty messy to use kinda like diesel....I think it was used as it was cheap....I sure wouldn't want to mess with it now...

Low compression pistons will be essential

 

[Indiana Ken]

One thing you may want to consider is using a small engine to develop your recipe before you direct your attention to a full size tractor. I have used naphtha/toluene in a 8 HP BS engine (lawn tractor) with reasonable results. The engine would start and run on straight naphtha with only minor carburetor adjustments. However, operation on a hot day and heavy load would result in heavy detonation. A BS under heavy detonation does indeed make a big time rattle/smoke. Adding 10 to 20 percent toluene was sufficient to suppress the detonation.

I ran this mixture 4 - 5 years without notable damage to the engine. Why this mixture? The mower was used at a off site property to keep the weeds down around the buildings. It was seldom used and sat for long periods of time. I wanted a fuel that did not go bad - the naphtha/toluene mixture filled that need. I have since brought the mower home and still use it however, now with gasoline.

BTW - I have a NOS BS engine with two fuel tanks. One for starting (gasoline) and one for running (kerosene). As I recall the CR is some where around 4:1.

 

[Bob]

(quoted from post at 14:06:39 12/22/18)

(quoted from post at 21:48:13 12/21/18) Bob, how did water injection work? My understanding is that water was used to prevent predetonation of heavy fuels under load because it brought the temperature of combustion down. Was this injection system a function of the carburetor? It seems I remember hearing that some of the early Deeres used this but not the later letter series or numbered tractors? As far as fuel sources go, what would be wrong with used cooking/vegetable oil blended with gasoline and doped with octane boost. Thanks for input,

Pete

NOT sure how many models may have had water injection, I'm familiar with the "D".

It had a manual valve on the carburetor that could be opened to allow cooling system water to be sucked into the carburetor throat. It had a check valve to (hopefully) halt the flow of water if manifold vacuum wasn't present. (Engine stopped.)

Water injection manual valve and feed line from engine water jacket is outlined in red.

 

[pmarkel]

Bob,

Thanks for the picture and the explanation. As I said at the outset, I don't imagine this is a project that I will ever get to but I find it very interesting nonetheless. It seems like it would have made more sense for Deere to have built a small water tank into the design of the tractor than to use the tractors coolant but I guess most farmers would have been using straight water in their radiator at that point anyhow and even a small additional tank would have hindered the compactness of the tractor's design. Thanks for the help,

Pete

 

[Geoff Mathews]

Water injection with my D was very effective when burning low grade kerosene - the D did not
need it when burning aviation fuel.

 

[pmarkel]

(quoted from post at 04:59:31 12/26/18) Water injection with my D was very effective when burning low grade kerosene - the D did not
need it when burning aviation fuel.

ow does the water injection valve work? I assume the vacuum of the tractor's intake strokes pulls in a mist of water, but can you adjust how much water is metered in or is it all or nothing? Does the piping to the water jacket have a nozzle similar to that which is in the carburetor? Thanks,

Pete

 

[UncleCarl]

Pmarkel...what the hell is wrong with you? If the tractor is meant to burn "all fuel" type mixtures, then it's okay--burn what it's supposed
to burn. If it's not, and it runs, BE HAPPY WITH IT! Stop trying to make a 60 burn stuff it's not meant to burn. You obviously have too
much brain time on your hands. Slow down the brain waves and be happy with what you have.

 

[pmarkel]

(quoted from post at 17:05:34 12/27/18) Pmarkel...what the hell is wrong with you? If the tractor is meant to burn "all fuel" type mixtures, then it's okay--burn what it's supposed
to burn. If it's not, and it runs, BE HAPPY WITH IT! Stop trying to make a 60 burn stuff it's not meant to burn. You obviously have too
much brain time on your hands. Slow down the brain waves and be happy with what you have.

I will kindly ignore that last comment and pretend instead it was a compliment. After all, interest in these tractors is down considerably from two decades ago. So When you find someone my age that finds the antiques interesting more times than not their interest isn't in farming with them, it's in pumping them up to pull at competitions and finish them off. I, on the other hand, ACTUALLY put hundreds of hours on 60s and B's cultivating and plowing and mowing so naturally my curiosity in modification is of the practical and economical sort. And yeah it's true enough I have time to think about these things in theory but it's time I spend PHYSICALLY working on something else so don't insult yourself by pretending you know me or my type. Happy New year,

Pete

 

[bandmastertom]

In the old days, when we first stepped up to a 4010, diesel fuel was about $0.16 a gallon, we used to dump 2-3 gallons of Diesel in the all fuel tank on our 35 AO and top it off with gas. Once it was up to temp, it ran great, and smelled like a jet engine. Seemed to have plenty of power. (Funny--Farm gas was only about ten cents more...we thought it was criminal when it hit $0.28/gal)

But now with diesel more than 87 octane, the answer isn't about economy obviously. Good thought though-- when I take the winter tarp off it, maybe I'll try a similar mix in my 46 A! The great smell would be worth the price!

 

[buickanddeere]

It all changed with WWII when the Catalytic Cracker went from a curiosity to mainline petroleum refining .
Prior to WWII crude was just distilled with the light ends such as LP burned off . In order to make enough gasoline there was an excess of kerosene and #2,4&6 diesel. The surplus kerosene and diesel was sold off cheap. Good deal for Mr Farmer with a 4 to 1 compression tractor with a heated intake and carb with coolant temps over 195F.
WWII brought the demand for high high octane gasoline and lots of it . Just adding lead white gasoline was not enough . Even the gasoline had to be reformulated to an unleaded premium prior to adding lead .
The kerosene and #2 diesel is heated under pressure in the presence of a catalyst such as palladium with LP or natural gas added .
The long chain heavy fuel fed into the cat cracker which is high on carbon and low on hydrogen . It is broken into short chains then the hydrogen bonds on to make a light hydrocarbon product such as gasoline .
The highest octane possible unleaded "gasoline " is toluene at 114 and xylene at 116.5 . Neither one is good for you but xylene is twice as toxic as toluene . Pick your poison .

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 15:19:55 12/22/18) I guess I wonder why? I have a 1949 G that I bought from a retired farmer that bought it in 1961. According to the manual it had 38 belt hp The farmer said when he got it he installed M & W pistons, gas manifold etc. He said it produced around 75 hp on the dyno after the changes.

55HP maybe