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Briar Hill Brittanys

Briar Hill Brittanys

Well-known Member
Location
Near Jasper, MO
Wondering what your shop is plumbed with for air line? Do you use galvenized or not? What size pipe? My compressor is rated for 14 CFM @ 90 PSI. Shop is 40x35. I want to run a couple of lines to various places to keep from running hose all over the floor. Any other ideas for moisture traps, vibration isolation, etc? Thanks for your suggestions. Mark
 
3/4 iron pipe makes a good relative inexpensive air line. on horizontal runs, pitch the pipe slightly down away from the compressor so water will run away from compressor. on all your vertical drops, use a drain on the bottom of the drop, the about a foot above the drain, install a tee with your air line fitting. you can leave the drains very slightly open so any water will drip out. (they make a flexible hose to connect the airlines to the compressor, or you can use a length of hydraulic hose (new hose) . put moisture traps and filters at each airline outlet. drain the water out of your compressor tank on a daily basis.
 
Blair
We use 1/2 galv pipe where you exit pipe T down short nipple T out hose connect. Down pipe 1 foot reduce to 1/4 install drain cock (moister trap)
Traper
 
Galvanized would be the preferred line; it also will act as an air 'drier', condensing moisture. Black pipe tends to rust internally and unless you have a filter at all your quick disconnects to air hose fittings, that fine rust flakes off and wreaks havock on air tools, sprayers, and even comes out of an air nozzle.
 
Glennster knows his pneumatics. The only thing I have to add is if you use pipe and fittings from a big box store, check every thread for fit before you buy. They are very sloppy, some don't go together at all. Use both, tape and dope, and tighten just up to the point of galling, if you don't want any leaks. If you buy american pipe or cut threads yourself, you'll have an easier job (but spend more money). Good luck
 
Iron pipe is the best. You can google the subject and get all kinds of good info as to how to run the pipes. Traps are OK but I have never gotten enough water out of mine to amount to anything. I do have filter regulator units at each drop and I do get lots of water out of the ones at the far end of the shop. Two things a person needs to know about them is that they will not take water out of hot or fast moving air. Seen lots of them mounted on compressors over the years and you might as well save your time and money they wont remove a thing mounted there. You also need to forget about the waterglass size units as the air moves so fast through them when using a blow gun or air tool that the water cannot fall out of the airstream. Even with the right sized and placed units you will have troubles in times of high usage during hifg humidity unless you spend a LOT of money for air drying equipment.
 
You can use schedule 40 pvc. It"s way cheaper than steel pipe and easier to work with. It may fail after 40 years or so but you may not even need it by then.
The cheapest moisture trap you can make is to plumb in a small compressor tank off one of those throw away Chinese jobs in your air line before your quick connect. Set it in a tub you can fill with ice or cold water. You can drain condensate every so often out of small tank. The idea being getting the moisture in the air down to it"s dew point before it reaches your air tool.
John
 
Copper is a very good choice and you don't have to deal with threaded joint leaks. <a href="http://www.lascofittings.com/supportcenter/CompressedAir.asp">PVC is NOT safe</a>. It may be cheap and easy but it's a very poor choice. Don't use it.
 
Iron pipe.

Pex-type of hose, there are getting to be a lot of kits out there from Northern, etc that are easy to threow up a small system.

Copper is ok if you can afford it.

You can use hyd hose for a flexable connector.

Run a section of pipe uphill from the compressor to get water to condense out. Use drain legs.

Don't use PVC. It's rated for liquid pressure. If it breaks under air pressure (with age & oils, it tends to get more & more brittle; in a shop environment it's easy to smash it...) under air pressure it turns to small fragments that go off like a shotgun blast. Might be rare, but not good if your number comes up.

--->Paul
 
My shop area is 24' X 32' and I ran 1.5"id around the back to the overhead door. All the length is Teed in 10' sections with dual 3/8" and one 1/2" connectors, plus a drain ball valve on the bottom of each tee. From the compressor, the length of the pipe has a 1/4" fall every 10' to keep moisture down in the line. I used all black steel pipe and would never go the cheap route of PVC or other plastic lines, since I set the main PSI at 160 I'd rather it to "Last & not Blast"
 
(quoted from post at 07:32:16 03/29/11) Copper is a very good choice and you don't have to deal with threaded joint leaks. &lt;a href="http://www.lascofittings.com/supportcenter/CompressedAir.asp"&gt;PVC is NOT safe&lt;/a&gt;. It may be cheap and easy but it's a very poor choice. Don't use it.
Click to expand...

Kind of looks like maybe the schedule 40 PVC should be more than capable.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-cpvc-pipes-pressures-d_796.html
 
NEVER USE galvanized pipe for anything that is high pressure. If you are going to use iron you need black iron as it is made for high pressure. In my shop I used schedule 40 PVC when I built it new in 1990. In about 2004 I had two blow outs. Luckily no one was in the shop each time. I found pieces of plastic PVC shot clear through the 1/2 sheeting I lined the inside of my shop with. I replaced all of the PVC with black iron and have not had a minutes problem. I did install drain traps at the bottom of every drop. In the high humidity times of the year those drains get full real fast.

An engineer friend stated that the rating on the schedule 40 PVC pipe was for hydraulic pressure not pneumatic pressure. He says that you get a pressure spike and drop every time you use high flow air pressure. He said that hammers the pipe. The PVC will fail after so many cycles. I am not real educated on these things but mine did fail. Anyone around at that time would have been seriously hurt. So I would never use it for high pressure air again.

My compressor is set at 175 psi. lower pressures would change the requirements but remember that you might get a better compressor down the road so plan on a max of 175 psi and you will not have problems down the road.
 
It is hard to get your correct point across Butch.

I ran 4 inch black pipe in a loop in a molding plant where high volume air was used to eject parts. I came out of the top of the 4 inch with 2 inch ran to each press. I had a three foot drop at the end of each run with a valve. I ran 2 inch as close to the solenoid valves as space would allow. This gave slow moving air right up to the point of usage. We did not have a moisture problem in the molds without a air dryer down line. Some drop valves were left cracked with a pail under them in hot summer days which did have trapped water . A water cooled condencer was installed at the compressor to cool the air out of the compressor.
 
(quoted from post at 08:47:40 03/29/11) NEVER USE galvanized pipe for anything that is high pressure. If you are going to use iron you need black iron as it is made for high pressure. In my shop I used schedule 40 PVC when I built it new in 1990. In about 2004 I had two blow outs. Luckily no one was in the shop each time. I found pieces of plastic PVC shot clear through the 1/2 sheeting I lined the inside of my shop with. I replaced all of the PVC with black iron and have not had a minutes problem. I did install drain traps at the bottom of every drop. In the high humidity times of the year those drains get full real fast.

An engineer friend stated that the rating on the schedule 40 PVC pipe was for hydraulic pressure not pneumatic pressure. He says that you get a pressure spike and drop every time you use high flow air pressure. He said that hammers the pipe. The PVC will fail after so many cycles. I am not real educated on these things but mine did fail. Anyone around at that time would have been seriously hurt. So I would never use it for high pressure air again.

My compressor is set at 175 psi. lower pressures would change the requirements but remember that you might get a better compressor down the road so plan on a max of 175 psi and you will not have problems down the road.
Click to expand...

Pneumatics is air, hydraulics is liquid, and PSI is PSI no matter if it's liquid or air, and the pressure drops and rises in hydraulic applications just the same as in pneumatic applications, so provided the PVC, black iron, or copper lines have the same pressure ratings, why would PVC be any more prone to bursting than either of the other two?
 
You won't find PVC airlines in any commercial setting and if you do it's only a matter of time before an OSHA inspector makes a surprise visit. When he does visit the fines will be enormous and guaranteed. There is a special PVC that is rated for gasses that doesn't splinter when it breaks but its expensive and therefore has no cost advantage.
 
Rusty air can be compressed, fluids can't. 5 gallons of hydraulic fluid is still 5 gallons at even 2000psi. 5 gallons of air at atmospheric pressure can be compressed into a tiny container at 200 psi.

The reason PVC is not rated for gasses is because when the gasses escape and re expand the pvc splinters and becomes projectiles that can kill someone. If it were to burst with a high pressure liquid there is no expansion just pressure release and therefore no projectiles. Iron or copper pipes do not splinter they just burst. The main concern is from an impact or something like hot sparks to a PVC line. If you accidentally hit a copper or iron line it may dent or crack, the same impact on PVC and it would explode.
 
(quoted from post at 11:03:38 03/29/11) Rusty air can be compressed, fluids can't. 5 gallons of hydraulic fluid is still 5 gallons at even 2000psi. 5 gallons of air at atmospheric pressure can be compressed into a tiny container at 200 psi.

The reason PVC is not rated for gasses is because when the gasses escape and re expand the pvc splinters and becomes projectiles that can kill someone. If it were to burst with a high pressure liquid there is no expansion just pressure release and therefore no projectiles. Iron or copper pipes do not splinter they just burst. The main concern is from an impact or something like hot sparks to a PVC line. If you accidentally hit a copper or iron line it may dent or crack, the same impact on PVC and it would explode.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand all of that, but if the PVC won't hold up to AIR pressure, then shouldn't that fact be stated CLEARLY right on the pipe?
 
It's NOT the air PRESSURE, water pressure is the same.

The deal is, when it fails carrying air the air expands throwing shrapnel.

There's NO expansion with water, so you just get a leak.

Just like a boiler. It can be hydrostatically tested and if there's a weak spot that fails you simply get a leak.

With steam or compressed air (or other gases) a failure is MUCH more severe event.

I have seen it proposed on here that the oil vapor in compressed air MAY weaken the plastic over time and that MAY explain some of the plastic air tubing failures folks have had.
 
I know that pvc becomes brittle when cold, not all
shops are always heated, and when it does burst it
is more dangerous. As far as hydraulic shock, I
think there is more with a liquid as it is not
compressible, but most water systems are <75psi.
 
Yes, I understand all of that, but if the PVC won't hold up to AIR pressure, then shouldn't that fact be stated CLEARLY right on the pipe?
Click to expand...

maybe they figure most sane folks would leave the PVC alone when running air.


http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html
http://www.ppfahome.org/pvc/index.html

or maybe it's just plain not required
http://www.ppfahome.org/pvc/faqpvc.html
 
I did just that,a 20 gal tank as a reservoir. I had trouble getting water in my paint until I did that,I drain it often and get water out. Never get any in the paint. Its higher then the supply tank
 
http://www.lni.wa.gov/WISHA/regs/PDFs/WRD5.40-PVCPipe.pdf

"In enforcing the Washington Industrial Safety and Health Act (WISHA), the Department of Labor and Industries (L&I) sometimes encounters the use of PolyVinyl Chloride (PVC) pipe as part of compressed air systems. Compressed gas contains a huge amount of stored energy. Any external incidental damage to the pipe, a nip or an unusual pressure surge in the system can greatly compromise the integrity of PVC pipe. PVC pipe also can be damaged by oil and other contaminants contained in the air supply. Subsequently, failure of the pipe can result in an explosion with fragments of shattered pipe flying in all directions. The potential for injuries resulting from such accidents is significant. There is a history of explosion in the state and the hazard should be widely recognized. Manufacturers will not accept liability for unapproved PVC piping used to carry compressed air. Furthermore, the Plastic Pipe Institute has warned against using PVC pipe for compressed air purposes."
 
This topic gets beat to death. It's the same issue as with using water heaters for air tanks.

The problem with using PVC is the consequences of a rupture, NOT the likelihood of one. Compressed air holds a great deal of energy. Compressed water does not. Break a water line and the floor gets wet. Break an air line and someone gets hurt.
 
I'm guessing it doesn't say it because so far no bloodsucking lawyer has sued the manufacturers for enough to make them do it.
 
(quoted from post at 13:11:39 03/29/11) This topic gets beat to death. It's the same issue as with using water heaters for air tanks.

The problem with using PVC is the consequences of a rupture, NOT the likelihood of one. Compressed air holds a great deal of energy. Compressed water does not. Break a water line and the floor gets wet. Break an air line and someone gets hurt.
Click to expand...

I know it gets beat to death. That's why I'm trying to get it explained so that everyone will understand it.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to go with black pipe, and tees with shutoffs to drain any water at the point of use drops. I'm also going to go the flex route between the compressor and shop lines. Again thanks for the good info. Sorry to stir up the stink. Good thing I didn't ask if there's any bad reason to change from 6V to 12V. :mrgreen: Mark
 
I think you are getting flak because you are asking the wrong question.

All types of pipe burst - black iron, copper, PVC, hyd hose, pex. It does not matter why it burst.

The problem is if and when it bursts, what happens then?

Metal pipes will crack or pinhole and blow a stream of air out.

Hyd hose & pex will get a rupture and shoot air out.

PVC will crack up into dozens of pieces and be propelled by the compressed air into shrapnel that is dangerous.

_Why_ it happens does not matter. The _results_ of the break is the issue.

Water & air act differently. If a PVC pipe full of air shatters, the power of the water quickly falls away. There is very little danger.

When a pipe full of air shatters, the compressed air continues to accelerate the bits & pieces outward. Making them pretty dangerous.

Doesn't matter why it broke. You're not asking the right question. Tho, is would seem pretty obvious that a semi-ridgid platic would be more brittle, more easy to break with a sharp tug, getting hit, getting snagged by equipment, etc.

--->Paul
 
Rusty, you seem to think if you repeat the question enough times the laws of physics will change. Just because PVC can safely handle water at 125 psi doesn't make it safe to handle compressed air at 125.
 
Before you make a decision, check out Garage Pak. It's aluminum piping designed for air lines, and is easy to install. Lots of shops in my area are using it, and I plan on doing my shop with it (if I ever get that far).

garagepak.com
 
OK, you are forgiven for asking about air lines, BUT if you ever ask a welding question I won't be so easy! LOL
 
(quoted from post at 18:35:17 03/29/11) Rusty, you seem to think if you repeat the question enough times the laws of physics will change. Just because PVC can safely handle water at 125 psi doesn't make it safe to handle compressed air at 125.
Click to expand...

Mark, you underestimate me. I knew the answer even before the question was asked, but I also know that just telling someone it will not work is very seldom good enough. To get folks to really understand WHY it won't work is the ultimate goal, and the best way I know of to accomplish that goal is to ask the questions that will cause someone to actually do his/her OWN thinking. If you can accomplish that, then the job of teaching is much easier.

Oh, and for what it's worth, fluids such as water and oil DO compress, but the amount is minimal, not enough to worry about except in extreme applications.
 
I do alot of work at P&G plant,safety up the wazoo.They use copper with solder joints,stays clean never any problems.You have to be certified to solder there.
 
There is some very bad information in this thread that can get you killed! I suggest triple checking any information in this thread. A good starting point is at http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/.
 
(quoted from post at 13:08:08 04/03/11) There is some very bad information in this thread that can get you killed! I suggest triple checking any information in this thread. A good starting point is at http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/.
Click to expand...

You didn't read the entire thread or you would know the BAD information has already been shot down. Discussion forums should be taken with a grain of salt. They are very entertaining, and quite often there is some very useful and correct information given, but it is next to impossible to sort the truth from opinion.
 
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