These were some old pictures I found this morning and figured I'd try and learn how to transfer and post them, I'm new to this picture stuff.
I've got a bunch of photos of the main cap assembly and block, twin disc clutch, ignition and cylinder head that I will try to post up soon.
I'll take a bunch of pictures when I assemble the engine soon and post up with a different camera in good light. I've been cleaning up parts in spare time this winter and it's going back togather. Been sitting for a few years. I make some (hopefully) improvements to it also, but still the same basic assembly. I've also started on a new engine as a late D 17 block or Gleaner E engine rather than the old 201 like in the picture.
I think these were taken in the winter of 2002-2003 when I made the parts and built the engine.
The main caps are full width across the bottom of the block and then cross bolted through the side plates, you can see the bolt heads. There's an oil pump hanging off the front main driven at half crank speed, on the oil pan you can see the cutout/bulge for the drive gear. Oil is pumped though a bulkhead fitting in the block and into a filter base and regulater and then return oil back to the pan, pressure clean oil to the engine. Main berrings are pressure fed on top and bottom. I had made counterweights for the crank and a set of billet rods but never put them on.
There's a stud girdle across the top of the rocker arm assembly, and I made some L shaped brackets on the end of the rocker arm to keep the end of the shaft from bending. I wrecked a few of them, high RPM and it would drop a cylinder, it alwayse bent the end of the shaft. It was a good rev limeter, but after I made the supports then it would rev to 6500RPM when the valves would float, in the right conditions it would top out around 6200 mid track. Most runs were made in the 4000-5800 range, depending on the conditions, and the engine ran well from 3000-6000, below 3000 RPM it falls off verry fast. Our sled weighs about 54,000 pounds, typically a short chain and a hard clay track so it took quite a bit to get up to speed.
We knew what we had for airflow available and what speed we wanted to run the engine at, or what gear we could typically run and weighed out the gearing and engine speed for what we felt was our best match. Just built the shortblock an appropriate size to do so and stay within the limetations of what the head was capeable of, and keep piston speed and port velocities within acceptable limets.
I've got a bunch of photos of the main cap assembly and block, twin disc clutch, ignition and cylinder head that I will try to post up soon.
I'll take a bunch of pictures when I assemble the engine soon and post up with a different camera in good light. I've been cleaning up parts in spare time this winter and it's going back togather. Been sitting for a few years. I make some (hopefully) improvements to it also, but still the same basic assembly. I've also started on a new engine as a late D 17 block or Gleaner E engine rather than the old 201 like in the picture.
I think these were taken in the winter of 2002-2003 when I made the parts and built the engine.
The main caps are full width across the bottom of the block and then cross bolted through the side plates, you can see the bolt heads. There's an oil pump hanging off the front main driven at half crank speed, on the oil pan you can see the cutout/bulge for the drive gear. Oil is pumped though a bulkhead fitting in the block and into a filter base and regulater and then return oil back to the pan, pressure clean oil to the engine. Main berrings are pressure fed on top and bottom. I had made counterweights for the crank and a set of billet rods but never put them on.
There's a stud girdle across the top of the rocker arm assembly, and I made some L shaped brackets on the end of the rocker arm to keep the end of the shaft from bending. I wrecked a few of them, high RPM and it would drop a cylinder, it alwayse bent the end of the shaft. It was a good rev limeter, but after I made the supports then it would rev to 6500RPM when the valves would float, in the right conditions it would top out around 6200 mid track. Most runs were made in the 4000-5800 range, depending on the conditions, and the engine ran well from 3000-6000, below 3000 RPM it falls off verry fast. Our sled weighs about 54,000 pounds, typically a short chain and a hard clay track so it took quite a bit to get up to speed.
We knew what we had for airflow available and what speed we wanted to run the engine at, or what gear we could typically run and weighed out the gearing and engine speed for what we felt was our best match. Just built the shortblock an appropriate size to do so and stay within the limetations of what the head was capeable of, and keep piston speed and port velocities within acceptable limets.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Ever thought of putting both main bearings in the cross piece. Might get a 7 inch crank in her then 4.75x7 = 496 cubes
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
a fellow could even reduce the main bearings to a automotive King bearing and reduce friction.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
makes it easier to compete in any class you want to. the bottom has two choices in the matter. 1 choice is to do exactly what the top end tells it to . 2 cnd choice break.
Future Puller
Member
Is this carb on the right a Stromberg Nar6 like you described in the other post?
Future puller,
That carb is a Zenith similar to the JD 7700 combine carbs. It uses the same bowl assembly (I think anyway), but the top half is larger, and has the ability to be bored larger than the combine ones. Came from another application (I beleve a big Continental), I bought a half dozen of them new years agoe and sold them, kept this one for myself.
The throttle plate is 2.25" and a custom made venturi of right near 2" in that Zenith. It's a real good match for the engine. I had also ran a Stromberg NAR6B that worked well, but sometimes a friend or my dad would drive the tractor and it was a bit to tempermental unless you really abused it on the line. The Stromberg gave it more top end power, but less at the verry bottom end of it's powerband. I'll have to find the old dyno sheets from the Stromberg and Zentih but my complete power curve was a little better with the Zenith.
Our rules are different, so I'm going to put on a different intake manifold and a downdraft Holley, a little bit of a cam change and shorten the header a little on this old engine if I get time.
I still need to get you some header info one of these days. There's no right or wrong, but some good general guidelines and formulas to use, try a few different ones and take an average and one isn't to far off.
Pankey,
It's good to see that after months of reading everything I post and quoteing it, you finally understand that a short block can be to weak. In order to go pull, it has to stay togather.
I'm glad you like some 10 yr old technoligy on the main assembly. Keep paying attention and you'll see more parts that you like, as I get around to cleaning things up and putting togather.
Future Puller
Member
So whats going to happen to the zenith? Would you be selling it?
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Its definately overkill for no bigger than that engine is. I like it because i can put more stroke in it and that reason only. You obviously have some machining talents. If you would not be so head strong on the little cubic inches you could make a heck of a motor. Cubic inch and power wise. They do not make to big of a cam but they do build to small of a motor for some cams. the block will hold together with just a three cross straps on stock cap or new billet caps on the stronger d17 block.
I'm not to headstrong on the small engine, I just know that with a siamesed port head, the fireing order there's a limet to what I can feed and at what speed it can do it at.
If I had to run 3000 RPM, it would likely be in the high 300's for displacement, and if I was limeted to 2000 RPM, then it would be in the lower 400's
If I made a crank and swapped the fireing order, I could feed a fair bit more, or if I reverse flowed the head, I'd likely still have to swap fireing order in order to keep the exhaust working well.
I'd like to run one in the mid 300's but to feed a 75 cid hole fast, it takes a fair bit of air, more than an allis head is going to offer without cutting it apart. Which brings me to the two heads currently in the works, one solid one and one milled apart and epoxy filled for the alcohol engine.
If one does the math on that big zenith, the engine is out of air through the carb at a little over 6000 RPM so it's a pretty good match to the rest of it.
Look at the 460 of Ed Shoebridge (sorry if I killed the spelling) from Mi. There was a vid on here a bit agoe of "highest reving 460". He's got it figured out right. It's not a huge engine, but it's designed "right".
If I had to run 3000 RPM, it would likely be in the high 300's for displacement, and if I was limeted to 2000 RPM, then it would be in the lower 400's
If I made a crank and swapped the fireing order, I could feed a fair bit more, or if I reverse flowed the head, I'd likely still have to swap fireing order in order to keep the exhaust working well.
I'd like to run one in the mid 300's but to feed a 75 cid hole fast, it takes a fair bit of air, more than an allis head is going to offer without cutting it apart. Which brings me to the two heads currently in the works, one solid one and one milled apart and epoxy filled for the alcohol engine.
If one does the math on that big zenith, the engine is out of air through the carb at a little over 6000 RPM so it's a pretty good match to the rest of it.
Look at the 460 of Ed Shoebridge (sorry if I killed the spelling) from Mi. There was a vid on here a bit agoe of "highest reving 460". He's got it figured out right. It's not a huge engine, but it's designed "right".
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
When you run 1st or second gear a engine no matter the size will turn as many rpms as you want it to.You seam to not remember me telling you also that a running engine will pull more than 28 inches of water. You really should study that a little more . If i had of I would not be buying rods an i would have pilled the box . the math showed we were out of breath at 3 gs but it pulled twice that when the gov weight blew and we no longer had a 3 g gov.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
ngine Bore: 4.5
Engine Stroke: 4.5
RPM: 6200
Port Area (CSA): 1.75
Number of Cylinders: 4
Piston Speed: 4,650.00 feet per minute.
Piston Speed: 77.50 feet per second.
Average Port Velocity: 704.33
Engine Bore: 4.75
Engine Stroke: 6
RPM: 4500
Port Area (CSA): 1.75
Number of Cylinders: 4
Piston Speed: 4,500.00 feet per minute.
Piston Speed: 75.00 feet per second.
Average Port Velocity: 759.44
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0610phr_cylinder_head_porting/velocity.html
Dixie-normous
New User
"If you werent so head strong on the little cubic inches you could make a heck of a motor.." I think that is the best allis w series motor out there. AND there is actually alot of documantation of it running and WINNING out there...I think it is a heck of a motor already. And he said it ran for how many YEARS?? Wi50, you MUST have been the guy I talked to out there in Hutchinson Mn (a few years ago now) that out pulled prettymuch EVERY allis tractor at the pull. It sounded like you must have been turning 6000 + RPMs off the line. Nothing could even come close.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
well i am ready to put mine back together as well . who knows we may have to compete against each other some where. be nice to pull against something besides olivers.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
will it twist up higher than the ford?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXC83LdlT7Q
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I thought you sold yours? I'll have mine back together this next week??? for the second time in 6 months...
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
fell through. I sold the 310 inch motor . . what did you break in yours? got that 6.5 stroke going yet?
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I and others was wondering how come you talk at times really inteligent and in the know and other times do not . Now I know you have memory laps. Cause you started commenting on my post way before I ever did yours. Heck I never met you or knew you before you introduced yourself through my posts like a mocking bird. I even stated once you sounded alot like my old posts with exception of small cubic inches and long rods.
so you didn't sell. I thought I had red that "some would be happy"
Kind of makes me wonder what to beleve and what not to beleve comeing from some keyboards. I also rember being told that a header would not help an Allis any, and that there was no way my engine would run "on tractor fuel at best" when I gave you the specs on the Allis forum. Oh, and last week I red that I quit pulling due to finances, and something about springing for a rebuild.
I do have a good cylinder head here that I've contemplated selling, it would do you good. I tapped the valve guide bosses, made threaded slugs to fill them with offset holes in them on the intakes. I offset the intake valves twards the port. I cut a hole in top of the head and blasted the corners of the intake runner, ground things up and filled the areas with epoxy. Then when I ported, I made a verry nice angle and radius to feed the valve and eliminate that sharp bend. Made a little eyebrow in the back to direct the charge left or right and fill the dead spot. It's a pretty honest head, pulls some pretty good numbers and sounds good when doing it.
yes, I was out at Hutchinson a while back. I rember talking to several people, you from Ohio?
That was a fun day, I rember leaving the line at 6500 in the light class, WC in 3rd gear. Some other fella's were running 3rd in their WD and 45 chassis and didn't realize how fast a WC was geared. They spun out easy, I snuffed mine, but was something like 50 feet ahead when it did come down. I rember winning the 4500 and 5500 classes also, there was a good running 180 there that I should have never gotten close to but luck was with me that day for some reason. Made for some good laughs though afterwards, and still makes some good stories when I see the others around now and then.
Pankey,
Just about every time I make a post in any thread, you feel the need to quote it and then try and make some explanation or something. Or jump to conclusions or assumptions on who knows what. I've alwayse posted truthfull information with an explanation. If you don't like it, to bad I guess. I've also tried to share some pictures of a project I did a while agoe, and you feel the need to attack it any any way possiable. It's good that spring is here and I'm getting verry busy, I don't have much time untill snow flies again.
Now were did I say that small cubic inches are good. I did day that there is an optimum size for an engine to be, depending on what it has available for it's induction. I have said that to big, is a waste, or that it will just run slower untill it's demands are met. When we know what the limetations are, we can size an engine in the parameters.
I only hope that others can enjoy the pictures, videos, and any information. They seam to. I know I like to see someone elses good running tractors and parts when they share.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
As i said which you consider a attack the pictures gave some insight on moving the mains down . Sometimes limitation are a Idividuals assumptions or calculations that does not factor in all factors. I have been making as factual post as I know on these engines on this sight since 06. from things that work to things that dont . I have no problem with telling both. theres not a engine out there that cant be wound past its airflow by gearing. when you stick one in low gear twist it 7000 wheel speed goes up excessively ground speed is no where close .motor isnt seeing any load when the sled makes the tire hook to the ground engines belch smoke and die. jmho
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I am guessing those flags on the sleds in your videos are 3ft by 5 ft at the largest . The allis final in second gear with 38 rubber and 6200 rpms would be hauling it down the track and the flags just do not so that speed .
There's a stud girdle across the top of the rocker arm assembly, and I made some L shaped brackets on the end of the rocker arm to keep the end of the shaft from bending. I wrecked a few of them, high RPM and it would drop a cylinder, it alwayse bent the end of the shaft. It was a good rev limeter, but after I made the supports then it would rev to 6500RPM when the valves would float, in the right conditions it would top out around 6200 mid track. Most runs were made in the 4000-5800 range, depending on the conditions, and the engine ran well from 3000-6000, below 3000 RPM it falls off verry fast. Our sled weighs about 54,000 pounds, typically a short chain and a hard clay track so it took quite a bit to get up to speed.
This was posted in the verry beginning of the thread....for those who read it.
This was posted in the verry beginning of the thread....for those who read it.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
By your account put a mile an hour on up to speed. spinning wheels make slower ground speeds and doesn't load engine like hooked up does.
DAVE Thompson jr
Member
From what I gather you can leave the line at 6500 rpms and keep the engine together. If you dont mind who made the crankshaft pistons and rods? It would have to be a very well balanced engine to make one run down the track at those rpms. I am not saying it cant be dont but asking how you did it. Thanks Dave Thompson jr.
Dave,
There's a good explanation near the top on the first page I posted just after I figured out how to get pictures up.
I typically want to be around 4000-4500 when I leave, though there's been times if it's a short track or something where I abuse it pretty hard comeing out. I made a nice twin disc clutch assembly to slip a little and help out.
Venolia forged pistons, rods came from a diesel application. The crankshaft is from a Leroi engine that I machined and put in the Allis block. It stays togather because it's pretty short stroke, and the Leroi crank is pretty stout. Piston speed is within a a common and acceptable range. The rod ratio is pretty high, to high, but that's just what it ended up being to make it fit with what I had.
Here's the entertaining part. I got the sleves free from the scrap barrel, the pistons were bought on Ebay, 10 new ones for $140 for the box of them. I found the connecting rods laying on a pallet in a junk yard somewhere in Montana, held a dollar bill up to them and figured they were enough longer and I'd make them fit (it took a while to figure out what they were for). A lot of friends helped on the project, we all learned a lot and had fun while doing it. It ended up being one of those projects where one thing alwayse leads to building another and another.
The little bugger got a lot of bigger tractors, sometimes only down to 3 cylinders and sometimes locked up getting pushed off the track, but we alwayse smile, laugh and say the same thing, "not to bad for a couple dumb farm kids"
There's a good explanation near the top on the first page I posted just after I figured out how to get pictures up.
I typically want to be around 4000-4500 when I leave, though there's been times if it's a short track or something where I abuse it pretty hard comeing out. I made a nice twin disc clutch assembly to slip a little and help out.
Venolia forged pistons, rods came from a diesel application. The crankshaft is from a Leroi engine that I machined and put in the Allis block. It stays togather because it's pretty short stroke, and the Leroi crank is pretty stout. Piston speed is within a a common and acceptable range. The rod ratio is pretty high, to high, but that's just what it ended up being to make it fit with what I had.
Here's the entertaining part. I got the sleves free from the scrap barrel, the pistons were bought on Ebay, 10 new ones for $140 for the box of them. I found the connecting rods laying on a pallet in a junk yard somewhere in Montana, held a dollar bill up to them and figured they were enough longer and I'd make them fit (it took a while to figure out what they were for). A lot of friends helped on the project, we all learned a lot and had fun while doing it. It ended up being one of those projects where one thing alwayse leads to building another and another.
The little bugger got a lot of bigger tractors, sometimes only down to 3 cylinders and sometimes locked up getting pushed off the track, but we alwayse smile, laugh and say the same thing, "not to bad for a couple dumb farm kids"
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