Starter locked

[Coachmen]

I m new on here but not new to the 8N. I had an 1952 back into early nineties and remember some of it but not everything. I planned on leaving a message on here to comment about the good parts and shipping but I have an actual problem now. This tractor needs a number of small things fixed but starts good and runs decent

Today I went out to start it and the starter drive locked up. Of course it was making a terrible noise as it tried to spin at 5,000 rpm so I shut it off right away I tried it one more time but its stuck. I then pulled it with my truck and tried to bump spin it a little but no good. I tried to remove the starter but there isn t enough clearance with the drive engaged. I did search the forum but didn’t hit on this problem. I remember the issue of having to spin the drive with a wire wheel or something years ago. I hope this isn t split it time lol
Thanks for any help

This post was edited by Coachmen on 12/28/2022 at 02:41 pm.

 

[deanostoybox]

You need room to maneuver. You can remove the drain plug or petcock which may be enough. The dipstick is easy. If that is not enough then remove the bolts holding the oil filter and raise it enough to get one (or both) bolts back in their holes, then let the oil filter rest on those.

If that does not get it done, remove those nuts you put on the starter bolts to keep the starter from coming apart and pull the starter off of it's armature. Lot easier to put the starter back together than do a split.

Good luck!

 

[Royse]

Many times they can be dislodged by putting the tractor in high gear,
engine off, and rocking the rear tire back and forth until you see the
radiator fan turn. Lather, rinse, repeat as needed.
Otherwise, you can remove that starter, even when engaged.
If you have trouble doing so, the starter will come apart in pieces.

 

[Coachmen]

Thanks for responding quickly. What you explained is the way to do it if the drive isnt locked towards the ring gear My drive is engaged all the time and wont spin free. I just tried it again and its stuck. Looks like the easiest thing to do is disassembled the starter and cut it off

The starter needs replacement anyway

 

[Coachmen]

I did that. If the drive is disengaged it probably has room to get past
the ring so yes, just unbolt it wiggle it out Theres no wiggle room
with the drive that close to the end plate. Thats what it seems like.

 

[Royse]

(quoted from post at 20:19:53 12/28/22) I did that. If the drive is disengaged it probably has room to get past
the ring so yes, just unbolt it wiggle it out Theres no wiggle room
with the drive that close to the end plate. Thats what it seems like.

I've taken several out that were already engaged. They will come out!
Another option, if you haven't already tried it, charge the battery and
or jump start it until the engine is running to disengage the starter.

 

[Coachmen]

I tried running it again and left it run a few seconds. Still stuck.

 

[Coachmen]

Thanks
So even when they are engaged they pull straight out?

 

[Royse]

They do not pull straight out. They have to lifted up and over the flywheel/ring gear.

 

[Coachmen]

As you say, even engaged it should still come out easily. I was
thinking that it may have to tilt just a little and with the drive
disengaged it would have more wiggle room. Ill look at it tomorrow
and it will probably come straight out instantly lol

 

[Coachmen]

I disassembled it and moved it all around but it wouldnt come out.
The hole is oblong so that it moves away from the flywheel as it
comes out but my starter end plate pilot would not come out of the
hole far enough to let it move over to the oblong side

The starter was junk, the brushes were very low so I just cut it off at
the starter side of the end plate. The end plate bushing had come out
and was laying loose on the shaft by the gear
I dont see how that stopped it from coming out but after it was cut
the drive was laying in there with plenty of room to have come out.
It just seems like it was because the pilot wouldnt come out enough
to use the oblong. Doesnt make sense after seeing it out It will be
interesting to see how a new one goes back in

Ill see if I can post a video without messing it up lol

 

[Leroy]

When you do get the starter slid out a half inch take a 5/16 inch nut and pot on one of the bolts and tighten it up, that will keep the started from falling apart as you are trying to work with it and I think that is probably what happened for you that it would not come out. Put a nut on the new starter before atempting to install it and remove it only when starter is close enough you cannot get your finger in there to hold the nut, use a pair of pliars to hold the nut while you back the bolt out of the nut and once you get the nut out then screw the bolt in. Had to do that many a time on my 44 2N. For a while they came out with a different type of starter drive that was too big to fit in and you were supposed to grind away part of the housing for it to work. After we had engine out for rebuilding and new ring gear put on back in mid 80's have not had starter locked up again. Do the split and put a new ring gear on or you will be trying to unstick the starter many a time. And if you do get a starter with the new style drive you can easily get in there to grind out what needs to make the newer style to fit thru the hole.

 

[Coachmen]

Thanks for your reply
I couldnt get it out far enough to put a nut on it After searching here and trying everything suggested I cut it off next to the end cap. The starter was very old and the brushes were gone It does look like the drive may have been replaced The c clip on the end is partially disengaged from the slot, like they didnt position it so that both ends of the clip were in the groove. The larger end of the clip was on the flat area and starting to come out

The starter end cap at bell housing spit one of its bushings out. It was riding loose on the shaft next to the drive. It seems like with it being engaged there wasnt enough room for the pilot area of the end cap to come out far enough to let the drive utilize the oblong area of the hole. I was assuming that the hole was oblong from the factory but now that you mentioned grinding maybe not.

Theres no telling where this drive came from and the quality of a lot of aftermarket parts can vary widely so who knows.

I made a video of the armature and end plate, wiggling it around in every possible direction. Even prying on it a little. I wasnt going to beat on it or force anything so I gently did surgery on it

The ring gear looks good. When buying this tractor my goal was to be able to use it to put in another dozen fence posts and move some driveway gravel without having to split it Im going to bush the front end, do the brakes and seals and maybe an rh three point lift arm support pin in the trumpet. As you mentioned, I will still put a ring gear on it if I do split it. Its one thing to get an amazon part that doesnt work but Im a little nervous about putting things like a clutch in that dont work. Amazon will tell you no problem just return it. Duhhh lol

 

[John in Mich]

On my '51 I decided not to fight the crowded area while pulling out the starter (BTDT). I drain
the coolant from the block and remove both the petcock and the engine oil dip stick. That gives
me space to push the starter toward the block and lift the bendix around the flex plate. Easy-
peasy. Oops, also magic words and hold mouth just so. LOL

 

[Coachmen]

Just wanted to finish this. I installed a new starter from Y T that has
the new style drive As I wiggled it into place it was very close to get
the end plate pilot to drop into the round portion of the hole. I can
see how the pilot wouldnt have room to move move towards the
oblong before coming out if tge gear is in the engaged position

I dont know the history of it so who knows what was different but
something was if others come out while locked in the engaged
position. Thank you all for responding.