Starter Problems

[brownchristian]

Just went to put the tractor in the barn and it started but the started kept spinning and finally I heard a clunk and it stopped. Now it wont turn over anymore. This is the same thing that happened last time I assume the brand new starter is toast. What happened? Good thing is the starter is guaranteed for a year.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 22:54:15 09/25/09) Just went to put the tractor in the barn and it started but the started kept spinning and finally I heard a clunk and it stopped. Now it wont turn over anymore. This is the same thing that happened last time I assume the brand new starter is toast. What happened? Good thing is the starter is guaranteed for a year.

Your post seems to say that you have a bad ring gear.

I can't quite git a handle on it kept turning.

But it should have turned a long time, on a good ring gear.

 

[brownchristian]

Dunk I am confused. Starter kept spinning after the tractor was running and I think I heard the bendix hit the flywheel and I heard a clunk and saw something hit the cover at the end of the starter. Now no start and just a click from the solenoid. Same thing that happened to the old starter.

Where is the ring gear? This was a brand new starter.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 23:13:40 09/25/09)
Dunk I am confused. Starter kept spinning after the tractor was running and I think I heard the bendix hit the flywheel and I heard a clunk and saw something hit the cover at the end of the starter. Now no start and just a click from the solenoid. Same thing that happened to the old starter.

Where is the ring gear? This was a brand new starter.

The ring gear is the teeth that the Bendix meshes with, on the fly wheel.

If they are bad, they will destroy stuff.

http://www.theviperr.info/hobo_dnn/Default.aspx?tabid=75

It only takes 2 or three bad teeth.

 

[lha]

Sounds to me like what happened was that the starter drive stuck against the flywheel,then when it came loose it threw the starter drive off into the space below the flywheel.If not,then the klunk you heard was the drive breaking loose.I would turn the motor over slowly and check the teeth on the flywheel ring gear,in case they are torn up.---lha

 

[brownchristian]

Pulled the cover off the end of the starter and there was piles of mangled parts and pieces. Two of the brushes fell out also. Thankfully DB has a no questions warranty.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 10:28:05 09/26/09) Pulled the cover off the end of the starter and there was piles of mangled parts and pieces. Two of the brushes fell out also. Thankfully DB has a no questions warranty.

Check that ring gear while you have it off.

I have been well pleased with my DB starter.

 

[trucker40]

When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.Now if you hit the starter hard with a big hammer while its doing this it usually makes it disengage.Also you can remove the hot cable from the battery to get it to stop.You dont want to let it go because it can melt the hot post right off of a battery and start a fire.
Bad flywheel teeth could cause a starter drive to break,but probably not to stay engaged.Anything is possible however.Starter staying engaged is most likely low voltage caused by bad connection,sticking solenoid,or run down battery.

 

[brownchristian]

Thanks Trucker I will check all the connections. I did see a spark from the side post on the solenoid. Maybe this was the cause.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 10:37:20 09/26/09) When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.

The reason it does that is ohm's law.

The less the voltage, the higher the current flow.

The more current causes the solenoid contatcs to "weld" together lightly.

 

[Elmo]

How long did the engine run after it started until you heard the clunk? Did you give it any throttle and speed up the engine?
Elmo

 

[brownchristian]

Almost immediately. I ran it for one minute to the barn and shut it down. Wouldnt crank again.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 10:46:11 09/26/09)

(quoted from post at 10:37:20 09/26/09) When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.

The reason it does that is ohm's law.

The less the voltage, the higher the current flow.

The more current causes the solenoid contatcs to "weld" together lightly.

I am going to try to give this one farther (and teach ohms law if you will), I already attempted it in another topic lately.

If your starter happens to be a (example) power appliance of 1200 Watts Power.

Then if you apply 12v to that appliance....

You have: I = P/E

1200 Watts of power, at 12 Volts = 100 Amps of current.

Now lets drop our voltage.....

1200 Watts of power, at 6 Volts = 200 Amps of current.

Now lets try it with a battery that is not fully charged...

1200 Watts of power, at 4 Volts = 300 Amps of current.

Ohms LAW.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Bad insulation on the small solenoid terminal will make the engine crank any time.It can crank when the engine is running or when the tractor is parked.A sloppy terminal on the side post can short to a metal solinoid case and make the starter turn anytime.The should be a boot on both ends of the small solenoid wire.Bad insulation on the wire can short to ground causing the starter to crank when the engine is running.If this happened to your rebuilt starter the rebuilder is NOT at fault.I just removed a solenoid from my 600 that has very bad insulation on the battery cable terminal.If a flat # 10 washer is missing from the small post the wire terminal can touch the metal solenoid body. I like the new bakelite body solenoids for this reason.You second new starter will be destroyed if you dont fix this problem.If you saw a spark at the small side terminal the insulation is bad.

 

[trucker40]

I didnt know that it made that much difference.Wow!Now that you put it like that its easy to see why it welds the contacts.I know that one way of checking a starter to see if its worn out is with an amp gauge which has to be hooked in series or has a clamp that goes around the cable.I havent seen one for a long time,but you could buy one that you held on the hot cable to the starter while cranking it would show how many amps it was pulling.500 amps means starter is worn out and must be fixed,that was probably on a diesel engine with more than one battery.Also when a starter pulls all the power,sometimes it can cause the engine not to start because there is almost no power left to spark the spark plugs.I have seen that happen a couple of times.Also a starter wouldnt necessarily have to be worn out to draw lots of amps.If it has a loose or dirty connection somewhere,and even where it bolts to the block being rusty or greasy can make it hard for it to get enough electrical power to work right.

 

[PcRider]

(quoted from post at 02:29:46 09/27/09)

(quoted from post at 10:46:11 09/26/09)

(quoted from post at 10:37:20 09/26/09) When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.

The reason it does that is ohm's law.

The less the voltage, the higher the current flow.

The more current causes the solenoid contatcs to "weld" together lightly.

I am going to try to give this one farther (and teach ohms law if you will), I already attempted it in another topic lately.

If your starter happens to be a (example) power appliance of 1200 Watts Power.

Then if you apply 12v to that appliance....

You have: I = P/E

1200 Watts of power, at 12 Volts = 100 Amps of current.

Now lets drop our voltage.....

1200 Watts of power, at 6 Volts = 200 Amps of current.

Now lets try it with a battery that is not fully charged...

1200 Watts of power, at 4 Volts = 300 Amps of current.

Ohms LAW.

There is a flaw in your application of ohms law, Power is NOT a constant. Just because a device is rated for X number of watts doesn't mean its going to get, or use that amount.

example 1: 100volts x 1amp = 100watts of power
example 2: 50volts x 1amp = 50 watts of power

We can see that power follows voltage.

example 3: 100volts x .5amps = 50watts of power
example 4: 100volts x .1amps = 10 watts of power

We can see that power follows current as well.

To make a long story short, power is a function of voltage and current, not the other way round.

Resistance on the other has just the opposite effect. The short rule is more resistance = less current. As in bad connections etc...

At least thats the ohms law they taught us here in Kansas, is it different where you are?

 

[Dollar Bill]

PC, you missed the point. Dunk was just trying to explain why the starter would keep turning when the battery was low - and did a fine job I might add.

You're just trying to confuse us hicks with all your high falutin, Kansas style book learning ;-}

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 01:25:16 09/28/09)

(quoted from post at 02:29:46 09/27/09)

(quoted from post at 10:46:11 09/26/09)

(quoted from post at 10:37:20 09/26/09) When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.

The reason it does that is ohm's law.

The less the voltage, the higher the current flow.

The more current causes the solenoid contatcs to "weld" together lightly.

I am going to try to give this one farther (and teach ohms law if you will), I already attempted it in another topic lately.

If your starter happens to be a (example) power appliance of 1200 Watts Power.

Then if you apply 12v to that appliance....

You have: I = P/E

1200 Watts of power, at 12 Volts = 100 Amps of current.

Now lets drop our voltage.....

1200 Watts of power, at 6 Volts = 200 Amps of current.

Now lets try it with a battery that is not fully charged...

1200 Watts of power, at 4 Volts = 300 Amps of current.

Ohms LAW.

There is a flaw in your application of ohms law, Power is NOT a constant. Just because a device is rated for X number of watts doesn't mean its going to get, or use that amount.

example 1: 100volts x 1amp = 100watts of power
example 2: 50volts x 1amp = 50 watts of power

We can see that power follows voltage.

example 3: 100volts x .5amps = 50watts of power
example 4: 100volts x .1amps = 10 watts of power

We can see that power follows current as well.

To make a long story short, power is a function of voltage and current, not the other way round.

Resistance on the other has just the opposite effect. The short rule is more resistance = less current. As in bad connections etc...

At least thats the ohms law they taught us here in Kansas, is it different where you are?

I am no electrical engineer.

I posted that knowing that there are electrical engineers on this board, and hoping to be straightened out, and the question get explained correctly, if my thinking is flawed.

We are trying to understand why the contacts on the solenoids "weld" together in a low battery condition.

I am positive of the fact that the starter pulls more current on 6v than it does on 12v, and that is for sure the difference in the guage wire needed on a 6v, vs a 12v.

I am positive that the starter has to put out the amount of "power" it takes to turn over a N engine, whether on 6v, or 12v, whatever the amount of "power" it is that takes.

I am fairly positive that the amount of "power" it takes to turn over an N engine, is pretty well constant.

Power is NOT a constant.

Please explain how the "power" to turn an N engine is not constant.

I know that if I used a hand crank, that it would take me just as much "effort" ("power") to turn the engine, no matter if it had a 6v, or a 12v battery in it, or even if it didn't have a battery in it at all.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 00:25:16 09/28/09)

(quoted from post at 02:29:46 09/27/09)

(quoted from post at 10:46:11 09/26/09)

(quoted from post at 10:37:20 09/26/09) When you crank an engine over,if something is not right,like a battery being run down,or something not making a good connection or a switch sticking it could cause the starter to stay engaged.If something like that happens see if it has any connections that are hot.That will tell you there is something wrong with that connection or cable.Low voltage will cause this to happen.I dont know why,it just does.

The reason it does that is ohm's law.

The less the voltage, the higher the current flow.

The more current causes the solenoid contatcs to "weld" together lightly.

I am going to try to give this one farther (and teach ohms law if you will), I already attempted it in another topic lately.

If your starter happens to be a (example) power appliance of 1200 Watts Power.

Then if you apply 12v to that appliance....

You have: I = P/E

1200 Watts of power, at 12 Volts = 100 Amps of current.

Now lets drop our voltage.....

1200 Watts of power, at 6 Volts = 200 Amps of current.

Now lets try it with a battery that is not fully charged...

1200 Watts of power, at 4 Volts = 300 Amps of current.

Ohms LAW.

There is a flaw in your application of ohms law, Power is NOT a constant. Just because a device is rated for X number of watts doesn't mean its going to get, or use that amount.

example 1: 100volts x 1amp = 100watts of power
example 2: 50volts x 1amp = 50 watts of power

We can see that power follows voltage.

example 3: 100volts x .5amps = 50watts of power
example 4: 100volts x .1amps = 10 watts of power

We can see that power follows current as well.

To make a long story short, power is a function of voltage and current, not the other way round.

Resistance on the other has just the opposite effect. The short rule is more resistance = less current. As in bad connections etc...

At least thats the ohms law they taught us here in Kansas, is it different where you are?

No one has hit the bull's eye yet. A motor isn't a resistive load, except when stalled, as in locked rotor/armature. When it is spinning, it internally generates what is called counter electromotive force. Don't let the text book jargon get in the way, it just means that it is generating a voltage due to its spinning, just as a generator would, and this is of such polarity as to oppose the current being supplied by the battery, thus it draws less current when spinning than when stalled. Furthermore, the faster it spins, the greater this counter force & the less current it will draw from the battery. Now, here is the 'closer': If the battery is weak, connections dirty, etc. the started just barely spins or stalls & the is little counter EMF, thus sky high currents, which weld the solenoid contacts closed.
It only 'looks' like it defies ohms law, because there is more to it than a simple resistor/battery circuit.

 

[PcRider]

Power is NOT a constant.

Please explain how the "power" to turn an N engine is not constant.

I know that if I used a hand crank, that it would take me just as much "effort" ("power") to turn the engine, no matter if it had a 6v, or a 12v battery in it, or even if it didn't have a battery in it at all.[/quote]

I don't wish to beat a dead N, the post on a stalled starter answers the high current question well enough. I respect Dunks opinions greatly.

I would only add that you consider the N starter is a 6 volt device. Running it at 12 volts, it spins faster, because it has more voltage it has more power.

The point on counter EMF is interesting, but I would rather not discuss it in public.

PcRider