Steel wheel hay rake question.

[conoverbandit]

Hello y'all,

I have aquired a steel wheel hay rake/ tedder. I'm trying to figure out what brand it is. I cannot find any name on it, only "made in Canada" on the gear box case. It is very rusty, there isn't a lot of paint left on the thing. i scraped off some of the petrified grease to reveal orange paint on the body. i scraped a place on the wheels and they appear to be yellow. The guy I got it from didnt know the name of it. He did have an old allis-chalmers two row planter, so I wonder if the rake could be an allis? Any help would be greatly appreciated as its missing one of the ratchet hubs that go into the wheel. And I would like to find one so I can get this thing working. Thank You again,

Wayne

 

[Leroy]

Sounds like a Cockshutt. And I never heard of AC ever making a steel wheel hay rake.

 

[Farmallb]

Me either, But they surely had one. They had side mounted mowers for the WC and U. They surely had a rake to go with it.

 

[conoverbandit]

Well, that gives me another one to try, i wanted to post pics but the thing kept saying i was too new a member for that. I just thought since it was a bright orange under the grease A-C is the only one i could think of. But that is why I came here, to see if y'all could give me a hand. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Tim(nj)]

Cockshutt may have made it for Co-Op to sell. Co-Op sold Cockshutt-built equipment painted bright orange.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Could be New Idea ,They had orange and green paint scheme and made combo side rake tedder. Still highly sought after in Amish area

 

[Leroy]

By that time it was the pto powered rake with one rigid and 1 caster wheel on the back. I have never heard of any machinery other than tractor powered built by Allis chalmers.

 

[Leroy]

No, not New Idea as the steel wheel rakes did not have a gear box, only the ones on low rubber tires and even tho they had a gear box nothing was marked on the gear box.

 

[Leroy]

I know some rakes sold by Coop were carbon copies of the New Idea in the steel wheel version. Anouther thought would be M Moline but I think they also had open gears. Having a gear box with the tedder would be highly unusual as the gear to run the tedder portion is too big to fit in a less than oversize gear box. Thinking about it J I Case did make a steel wheel rake that did have an enclosed gear box and was a rake-tedder and was on steel and was a Model 170 and they did have an orange paint but that was in the USA and I do not know if they built any in Canada but other than the Canada markings sounds more like Case.

 

[TGIN]

Could the orange paint have been faded red ? Massey Harris would have a Red with Yellow wheels paint pattern and most likely made in Canada .

 

[conoverbandit]

(quoted from post at 15:32:49 12/31/11) Hello y'all,

I have aquired a steel wheel hay rake/ tedder. I'm trying to figure out what brand it is. I cannot find any name on it, only "made in Canada" on the gear box case. It is very rusty, there isn't a lot of paint left on the thing. i scraped off some of the petrified grease to reveal orange paint on the body. i scraped a place on the wheels and they appear to be yellow. The guy I got it from didnt know the name of it. He did have an old allis-chalmers two row planter, so I wonder if the rake could be an allis? Any help would be greatly appreciated as its missing one of the ratchet hubs that go into the wheel. And I would like to find one so I can get this thing working. Thank You again,

Wayne

Updated with pic's now

Here is the hub I need: It has a "R593" on it. part#?

 

[BushogPapa]

Looks an awful lot like the old CASE rake we had..

I'd look at the rotating unit...it looks like it is twisted..

Ron..

 

[conoverbandit]

It is kinda "twisted" there is a double mechanisim that "tilts"? the tines maybe? I'm not sure how this thing worked yet, where you engage the rake, it has two notches, so i'm not sure what that does either. I have an old IH rake that has this and it makes a tedder also. Maybe this one does too? Thanks for your help..

 

[Leroy]

It does look a lot like a Case but a few things that are different than the 170 model but that could be because it was made for the Canadian market. At times they will make an implement one way for the US and different for the Canadian market. And that is a dog plate or pawl holder that you are missing and the one you are missing WILL NOT carry the part number that is on the one you have as what you have is a left hand and the missing one would be a right hand. Not sure where my case book is right now. Are you in Canada or close to the border?

 

[Leroy]

The teeth will have a forward pitch for raking and a backward pitch for tedding and for a tedder-rake there should be 3 positions on the throw out, one is rake, center is out of gear and other is ted. And it is not uncommon for a real to have a twist in the bars and it is called a lead so the front part of the bar starts moving the hay and when the back part gets to the hay the front part of the next bar is starting to pick up the hay and it makes the rake pull easier than if they were straight because the bar has the same load at all times but if they were straight each time the bar pulled in a bunch it would take more power for a bit and drop off till the next bar. On a 4 bar it is not as pronounced as on a 3 bar. Have about a dozen rakes (McC., J D & N I) setting here now to rebuild and over the last several years I have had and rebuilt and sold over a dozen rakes and had a couple of Case in that time as well.

 

[conoverbandit]

(quoted from post at 18:50:52 01/01/12) It does look a lot like a Case but a few things that are different than the 170 model but that could be because it was made for the Canadian market. At times they will make an implement one way for the US and different for the Canadian market. And that is a dog plate or pawl holder that you are missing and the one you are missing WILL NOT carry the part number that is on the one you have as what you have is a left hand and the missing one would be a right hand. Not sure where my case book is right now. Are you in Canada or close to the border?

I actually live in North Carolina, in the foothills,

 

[barw]

Wayne I think I have a rake like that on my farm in Sask.It is a Case.
Won't be going out to the farm till spring though.
Can have a look then if you like.
Barry

 

[conoverbandit]

I have looked up a massey harris model 11 that looks very much like this, but the rear wheels are different, on the 11, they are tied together whereas mine are seporate. I wish they'd have put a tag, or cast something on these things like IH did. Man, once I made out the first "IHC" logo on a piece of it, they're everywhere! Kinda hard not to spot it somewhere lol. I would like to get it going as well, but sadly it's got some major broken pieces that is cast and I don't think you could weld it back. The piece that makes the pitch and the outher piece just behind it each have a broken ear...

 

[rankrank1]

(quoted from post at 04:20:21 01/02/12)
.... I would like to get it going as well, but sadly it's got some major broken pieces that is cast and I don't think you could weld it back....

Do not give it up as a lost cause yet. I would not pay someone to weld the broken cast pieces as that would far exceed the value of the rake. However, If you have either a mig/wire feeder or alternatively an old buzzbox arc welder then give it a shot as you have very little to lose other than some time.

FWIW: I had excellent results make some welding repairs on some cast pieces on an old John Deere 594 hay rake and I only used a Lincoln 115 volt wire feeder and general flux core wire. The pieces have held for years and I did not use any preheat or slow cool or any of the common recommended procedures for welding caste. If you do not have a wire feeder but an arc welder then they also make special cast rods which are probably even much better suited than what I used. If you do not want to buy special caste rods then use some 7018 or 7018AC and see what happens.

Success rate will depend on the quality of the cast base metal as some casts weld easily while others do not. If the casting seems to be of very poor quality then just sorta use the casting as a mold and keep applying weld to the point that you are eventually tying your new welds into previous weld beads. (Similar to how sometimes when you duct tape things the tape will not stick to the item itself but if wrap the tape around it then the duct tape sticks very well to duct tape itself. I know sounds wierd but it can work). I had one bar bearing casting that was broke that I did this wrap with weld and then shaped with a grinder and it has held and also looks nice too. Most impressive is this piece sees lots of loading and has held.

Brazing can easily work too, although I would not use brazing for areas that see lots of loading.

 

[conoverbandit]

Thanks everyone for the replies. i am new at this, my dad and I started re-storing tractors of sorts and when he died I didn't know what to do, but I have a few old tractors of my own now and really like the old implements. There are some to be had around here, sadly though, many more have been hauled for scrap. I wish I had a farm, cause I would try to rescue every peice I could, lol. I have 2 old rakes now, my wife says slow down lol. I know where 3 more are but.......

 

[Tim(nj)]

After looking at some old manuals on-line, I believe it to be a Co-Op E4, which was really a Cockshutt #4, made in Canada.

 

[Tim(nj)]

BTW, Leroy, I also came across some Co-Op manuals for T-series rakes that carried the Black Hawk name, which look similar to the New Idea rakes. They appear to be prior to Cockshutt's involvement in the Black Hawk plant in Ohio. I can't tell if Co-Op was offering both designs concurrently, or if one came before the other.

 

[Leroy]

I know of no whare that would get more loading than a mower knife head and they braze those and they hold for years, if you weld that chances are it will break again just next to the weld. To me as an old time farmer that is what I would have done.

 

[Leroy]

Wayne, one question, how far are you from northwest ohio? Wish I could find more of the steel wheel rakes than I can. Just this late summer I found a Case advertised locally for $150, bought it and delievered to by buyer and charged $100 to deliever, total $250 needing some work, he asked if $100 was enough for delievery or do I need more, how many times do you have someone do that. Last one that I took over last fall was rebuilt and painted and I got $550 for it that years ago I paid $35 for. Took it to northeast, ind where my dealer is at and this spring he sold it to be hauled to Kentuckey by a farmer going to move down there, can you imagine the final cost to that farmer paying my $550 plus dealer markup plus the trucking of over 200 miles. So those rakes do have value. McCormick, Case, New Idea and John Deere are the makes they want.My dealer has 2 Case rakes in his parts line up that we have talked about me bringing home and making one out of but he may have extra ones of the good parts. Please send me some good clear pictures of both the busted parts and front, left side, right side and rear view of the complete rake. And those others if could figure out how to get them home we just might be interested in them. I am also looking for these horse drawn mowers, McCormick No. 7 & No.9 in all variantes and John Deere Big 4 in all
variants for rebuilding purposes. I am going to open my email and hope to hear from you.

 

[Leroy]

I was going to ask for a picture of the top of the gear box as well and looking again at your picture of the large wheel rim that is not a Case type of rim from the 170. The tail wheels are in a shadow in your picture bit I don't think they are like the Case 170 rake as well. It lifts the end of the real only to control rakeing depth like a New Idea where the McCormick and Deere both lift the whole frame via the rear wheels to accomidate that. I have never seen a Massey rake. Oliver and David Bradley both only low rubber so that eliminates them. If it was not made in Canada then I would say M Moline but do not think any of there machinery was made up there and so that is what makes it more confusing. If you were up at the border would think it was a Canadian brand that was never sold in the US.

 

[Tim(nj)]

Leroy, see my reply further below in the thread, I think I figured out what it is.

 

[conoverbandit]

(quoted from post at 15:47:07 01/02/12) Leroy, see my reply further below in the thread, I think I figured out what it is.

I have searched google,bing,yahoo for cockshutt, and co-op steel wheel hay rakes and can find nothing really. Am I not typing it right? or just not saying it right? or, is there just not that much info on co-op pieces?

 

[Tim(nj)]

Go to www.ebay.com and type "Co-Op E4 rake" in the search box and some manuals will come up.

 

[conoverbandit]

(quoted from post at 19:26:24 01/02/12) Go to www.ebay.com and type "Co-Op E4 rake" in the search box and some manuals will come up.

After looking at that pic, I think you're right. I wish I knew someone that had that manual, so i could look at it to be sure, then I'd buy this one on e-bay. I did look up, and it turns out that cocshutt tractors and co-op's were either red and yellow, or i seen a solid orange one. I'm trying to figure out the color scheme i'm sure thats orange under that grease i saw, but the upper frame looked like a very faded red. I'm sure the wheels were yellow though, so I guess that's a start. You rekon this thing was red/yellow/orange? i don't figure the manual would tell you that lol. Thank you all for your help. I don't think there is anyway I could have figured this out without your help. This is the first co-op piece i've seen. would this also be a tedder as well? it has two positions on the engagement plate. Guess there's only one way to find out lol.
Thanks again, and keep the replies coming lol

 

[Leroy]

The CO-Op equipment was built here in the states and was an orange all the way and was built prioer to Cockshutt taking over the company and after Cockshutt took over the company they kept some of the line that was built in the states but not all of it and what they kept were them painted the red and yellow but then if it is a CO-op it would not have made in Canada on it. The canadian rakes would be different than the USA built rakes, perhaps only by the adition of the imprinting. The Coop tractors sold in the states after 1947 were built in Canada by Cockshutt but the earlier Co-op was built at 2 or 3 different places in the states with most built at Shelbyville, In. and the Blackhawk line was built at Belleview, Ohio and later taken over by Cockshutt and the earlier Co-op implements I do not know who built them. There is a very knoalageable national Cockshutt club that may be able to help you out. I know a man that lives just outside Ft. Wayne, In. that if it is a Co-op could tell you right off, was to his place once but it is 75 mile from my place.

 

[conoverbandit]

Here is a few more pic's of it.
The color on the wheels:

The color on the axle housing:

Better pic of the rear:

 

[conoverbandit]

ok, talked to a fella that has worked on tractors and re-stored them and the implements for over 30yrs. He said it was a oliver piece that was sold under the cockshutt name since it had "made in Canada" on it. It would have been a Co-Op piece had it not had the canada stamp on it. He has a book on the whole oliver implement history and said he would bring it and let me look at it, he says most likely I would see the rake in there. Sooo, I think we got it! It would be a cockshutt#4 hay rake. I would like to say thank you again for all your help. I think this is a great board and will be hanging out here, hopefully I can help you all in some way. Thank You again

Wayne

 

[Leroy]

Good to find out and I had never heard of a steel wheel rake built by Oliver, only the rubber tire model. And I had never seen that setup on the rear wheels.