The Enemy Ethanol

[jeffcat]

RED ALERT !! Ethanol
[ This is a do it at your own risk deal. Legal department deal you know.]
Last fall 2 of my McCulloch saws, a 940 two man and a I-62 5hp, were put to bed in perfect running order. Both of these saws had been run dry and both have the big old round Tillson carbs. This July I got several saws ready to take to the farm fair. These two saws would not run and I didn't have the time to tinker.
A few days later I pulled the carb out of the I-62 and took it apart. What a mess inside ! It looked as if a camel came along and took a dump in it!!! There was all kinds of black goo and little puddles of rusty water all over the screen. I also had to take the carb apart on my Gravely "L" Tractor. That carb had a big pile of black pepper in the bottom of the bowl. This was zink oxide from the pot metal! The black goo in the saw carbs was zink oxide, rusty water, ethanol and some other mistery crud. Another way this "zink rot" shows itself is a clear goo and little yellow grains that look like yellow sugar. Ethanol will pick up any water 'dry gas' and will go through your carb no problem. If this water rich gas mix sits it will rust the bottom plate of the carb and oxidize the metal in the carb. Different carbs have different mixes of metal in the "pot metal". Aluminum, Magnesium, Zink, Tin, Lead, Trace copper, Etc. In the old days it was pretty much what ever was around. Ethanol also attacks the rubber with swelling or shrinking or even it will shatter! Zama carbs that are used on late model McCullochs and lots of string trimmers etc. have very thin rubber and they shatter like pepper! When you rebuild the carb there is a little pile of black dust in the bottom.
All of this RANT covers ANY carb on other engines made of pot metal. Soooo.. here is where my test trial and error and a little research go.
The enemy is Ethanol in the gasoline and stabilizer does NOT help. As of today ethanol is mixed at 10%, this is soon going up to 15%!!! If you buy gas from a real sneaky dealer they add water to their tanks and the ethanol will pick it up. It will make them a little more money from the increased volume. Guess where that water goes?
This is where we need to start our journey. Find a good little independant dealer and see if he orders his own gas. He can get it without ethanol in it but it costs more. Price is maybe .50 more per gallon. This is BOAT fuel and does NOT have ethanol in it. I found one of these guys in Gap.PA. He said that people come to him BECAUSE he has ethanol free fuel! Never mind the extra cost. Boat fuel is for boats because Bay Cruisers and such have fiber glass hulls AND fuel tanks. The ethanol eats the fiberglass! This past spring a guy up in North Jersey bought about $100.oo worth of fuel when the price went down a little. About one and one half months later going down the Parkway he was pouring about $100.oo worth of gas on the road when the side of his boat finised dissolving! Find a local dealer with non ethanol gas or a boat dock with same.
Now another way around this is take a trip to you local camp store. Buy a metal gallon can of Coleman stove fuel at about $12.oo per gallon. This is what used to be called "white gas". I mix one of the little oil mix bottles with 3/4 gallon of Coleman to get a 32:1 mix that is better for my old saws and has a bit more stabilizer in the mix. Just beware that this gas is a bit higher in the octaine department! In normal 70-80 degree weather it is great. If you run your chain saw hard in 90+ degrees..and you don't let the saw cool down a little before you turn off the switch it will run on or pre- ignition. While it is running you can blip it a few times or just let it idle for 20 or 30 seconds. Then it should shut off.
Now with this Coleman mix you should run your saw, trimmer, small engine etc. and get it nice and warmed up. This will get the moisture out of the engine. Now let it cool off so it is safe to dump out any remaining gas. With all of the old gas out put maybe a 1/4 cup of Coleman mix in. Big tractors and such will need a little more. Start it back up and run it till the engine quits. Bingo... you can now put it away. I was able to "store" my two saws and Gravely for two months this summer and last week all of them started right up and ran perfecto. So try the Coleman mix or Boat dock mix. Sthil saws has sent their dealers a letter that says to use the middle octain gas and not the low stuff. CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER NEVER EVER use airplane fuel. It is 100 octain and will fry your engine. It cannot be "cut".
Final part of story is down at the local large rental center store. They have a product in one quart cans that costs around $5.25 per. It is call "50 Fuel" This is a premix of gas and oil that is ready to use. The fire rescue, EMT units and any one like them are supposed to run dry any saw or chop saw or generator they use on a call. This stuff in the can or FRESH mix in a sealed saftey can is what they should use. The "50 Fuel" mix is good for two years in the UN opened can. There is no ethanol in the mix. It is a "TruSouth" product. www.50fuel.com. See if your local dealer will buy a diplay box of it for you and others.
This is as far as I have gone with my research and you must try it out for yourself. It is my 2 cents worth of data and that is that!! Hope it helped everyone out there and good luck.
Jeffcat

 

[ldj]

Jeffcat,
I am going to take issue with you on some of this. You said
"Just beware that this gas is a bit higher in the octaine department! In normal 70-80 degree weather it is great. If you run your chain saw hard in 90+ degrees..and you don't let the saw cool down a little before you turn off the switch it will run on or pre- ignition."
If I understood right you were speaking of the coleman fuel mixed with gasoline. Coleman fuel is very low octane, so if mixed with gasoline you would have a lower octane, not higher. IF this were a higher octane fuel mix as you say then it would be less likely to run on pre-ignition. That is the reason for buying high octane fuel is to prevent pre-ignition. Now, with coleman fuel gasoline mix and it being lower octane as I say then that is the reason you are having pre-ignition
You also said "CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER NEVER EVER use airplane fuel. It is 100 octain and will fry your engine." WRONG WRONG. I retired after 40 years as a cropduster. Always had avgas real handy. Always run the chemical and water pumps, lawn mowers on avgas. Also used it to mix with oil for 2 cycle engines to use in weed eaters, chain saws, etc. Well maybe it did fry them but it took years to do it

 

[brokenot]

All of the ethanol-blend horror stories circulating lately certainly make me wonder why my equipment, (and the equipment at work), isn't having all of these issues.


:wink:

 

[Georgetown]

You"re actually running around loose and unescorted?

I"ve used 10% ethanol in almost everything for 20 years, and the only problem I ever had was a couple of carbureted Chevy pickups were prone to vapor lock in the summer.

Hereabouts we can easily get regular unleaded, no ethanol, but it"s about 6-10 cents per gallon higher at the pump.

 

[david - or]

ldj is correct. "High octane" CANNOT "fry an engine". The octane number refers to the ability of the gasoline to resist preignition and detonation. A high octane fuel burns slower, not faster, than a low octane fuel. The thermodynamic content of low octane gasoline and high octane gasoline is about the same.

Pre-ignition and detonation cause extremely high flame temperatures and sharp, explosive pressure spikes in a gasoline engine. Since the low-octane fuel is more prone to these effects, it is more correct to say that a low octane fuel "burns hotter" than a high octane fuel vs. the other way around

Coleman fuel or stove fuel is a low octane fuel, and it is a terrible idea to use it in a modern two cycle engine or any other high compression environment. A Ford 9N flathead engine from the 1930"s, with its 6:1 compression ratio can probably stomach stove fuel, but not a fancy new Stihl chainsaw.

I have had problems with ethanol laced gasoline eating the rubber/vinyl parts in the fuel system of my mowers, saws, and string trimmers. This fall I am winterizing my equipment with 100LL aviation gasoline + Stabil, in the hopes of having less of these problems next spring.

I can buy Avgas for $1.00 per gallon more than car gas, and 10 gallons will winterize everything I"ve got.

 

[Anonymous-0]

e-85 is run in all my GAS tractors and combines around here for the second year in a row , AND VERY WELL, but for you filthytnk folx out there you may have a few issues if your insides are NASTY ... especially gmjunk ,, btway , I was told 20 yrs ago not to use gasahol in 2 cycle motors and small engines for the same resasons descrbed above ,, local logger insists that HI -testGas is worth the extra cost to aviod the headaches and epwezuckz... the minigassers are aPIA

 

[36 Coupe]

Coleman fuel is actually naptha.A fellow ran out of gas and put some Coleman fuel in his gas tank.He said pinging was bad and he had to go easy or he got knock.That makes it low octane and risky to use in engines.

 

[MarkB_MI]

You have so many misconceptions in your post I don't know where to start. The one thing you got right is that there is ethanol in most gasoline. From there you went downhill.

First, you didn't prove that ethanol had anything to do with your small engine problems. If, as you say, your saws were "in perfect running order" when you shut them down and you ran them dry before storing them, how did ethanol wreck the carbs over winter? Those saws had crud in them for a long time before you stored them, probably from years of neglect and being stored with fuel in them.

Second, just because a gas dealer says he has no ethanol in his gas doesn't make it true. The only way to know for sure is to test. See the link below for instructions on testing gasoline.

Relatively few boats have fiberglass tanks. Most quality boats use aluminum tanks. Yes, gasoline mixed with ethanol can dissolve some fiberglass resins. So can ethanol-free gas, which is why you should never buy a boat with a fiberglass fuel tank.

Coleman fuel is NOT a suitable replacement for gasoline. It has a very low octane, which can lead to detonation, pre-ignition and a wrecked engine. You've already observed the pre-ignition, the next thing you'll observe is a hole in your piston.

The high octane in avgas will NOT hurt your engine. Extra octane never hurts, while too low octane (eg Coleman fuel) will wreck an engine. Avgas does have a substantial amount of lead, though, which is probably not good for most small engines. The advantage of avgas over auto fuel is it has a very low vapor pressure so it doesn't readily evaporate. This makes it much more stable during storage than auto fuel.

Buying the pre-mixed fuel is probably a good idea. I assume they use a high-octane, low vapor pressure blend, similar to avgas but lead-free.
Testing for ethanol

 

[Dean]

It's just going to get worse, Jeff, as the EPA is currently finalizing regulations to allow increased ethanol content up to 15% from the current 10% despite objections from various industry organizations.

Know nothing, cube dwelling federales can and do cause enormous problems for those of us in the real world.

Dean

 

[Anonymous-0]

sounds like you ought be putting alcohol into the tank and not down your throat. Take care of your stuff and you wouldn't have problems. I hoped for 20%. We have been using it for years and have had no ill effects. I can remember frozen gas lines before E10 in vehicles and tractors and buying a pint of heet for what a gallon of gas cost, ethanol eliminated the need for it. (Methanol(wood alcohol)does cause corrosion to some metals but most people don't discern between the two.) I often run e85 in my 95 f150 and the only problem is hard starting on a cold morning. Lets keep fighting in the middle east for oil. Your post will probably be a contender for the literary genious award!

 

[dhermesc]

Both of these saws had been run dry and both have the big old round Tillson carbs.

----------------------------------------------------

If they were run dry how did ethanol cause your problem?

 

[rustyfarmall]

It is truly amazing what lengths some folks go to just to stir up a discussion on this forum.

 

[dlplost]

57 years in the marine industry, I don't remember ever seeing a fiberglass fuel tank.

aluminum, stainless steel, plastic, never fiberglass.

 

[paul]

Wow. As mentioned, you need to put the ethanol in the tank, not drink it! Lot of scare-tactics. Wonder what ox you need to grind for that much mis-information? Not much more to say on that.

Even the E-15 deal doesn't mean much. While it will actually run more efficient in many cars, it won't be available very many places - it needs a seperate pump so will mostly be ignored. If one has a newer car that runs better on the higher ethanol blend, might want to search out a station or 2 that will carry it. Some cars get better fuel efficiency on E-15 than E-10.

--->Paul

 

[RN]

Wasn"t goint to comment-- but some things could use a little clarification based on experience. Ethanol is OK for most road vehicle made after about 1987- this is year Harley and Honda certified their models sold in US were ethanol capable. Prior to this the cycles could- and in the case of my Goldwing- did have problems. Small engines- especially 2 strokes- have for years recommended unleaded fuel only. Since they don"t get driven on road the ethanol use requirement for vehicles mandated by DOT/EPA doesn"t apply and in many cases the outside of US manufacturer of carb doesn"t worry about it. Lots of small engine shops here in Madison, Wisconsin area stay in business rebuilding carbs, etc on high priced engines that get the cheap ethanol blend gas run through them. Locally the Quick trip and some Citgo station sell straight 91 octane premium and have little stickers for "recomended for outboards, chainsaws, motorcycles and all 2 stroke engines." aviation gas is good stuff for older engines- the 100 octane low lead available at most airports does good as tractor fuel, Harley fuel and engines that cruise at 2000 rpm - the lead is needed for aircraft engines currently in use and the FAA says don"t risk ethanol for something that may fall from 10,000 feet on top of a politician and international aviation treaties say make leaded fuel available- so it will be around awhile. Blend of 1/2 aviation fuel and 1/2 91 octane straight gas is used by some of the hotrodders and pullers. Coleman fuel use? Used to use it as cold weather starter fuel, primer for tractors and trucks, some used it in chainsaws mix 1/4 tank to start real cold weather then topped tank with gasoline/oil mix after couple minutes running to warm engine. the stuff is volatile, quick burn, low octane and used in winter gasoline blends in northern states. If the chainsaw says Ethanol certified and salesman says thats why it is 10% higher than other model then can use the pump gas with 10% ethanol. California CARB rules didn"t certify for Ethanol since California state rules and practices up to couple years ago were using MTBE instead of Ethanol- so a California certified offroad engine doesn"t mean it was tested on ethanol mixs. Not all states pushed ethanol mixs- the non corn growing states didn"t get the tax incentives so didn"t push it, the availability of mid 80 octane regular is common. Mexican made small engines that will be used in their local market as well as exported to US are meant to run on their 80 octane unleaded, the operator runs on ethanol sometimes(Teasing Alert!) so Ethanol blend in northern/midwest state that push it does often foul them if preventive maintenance isn"t done. Time for coffee, I might stop at fuel pump later for cycles needs- I use a local commercial supplier who has unleaded regular and premium, same one the police use. RN

 

[Brian Jasper co. Ia]

I'm calling bull poop on this one big time. I have ran ethanol fuel for many years in every vehicle I have owned in the last 25 years with no fuel related failures. Ethanol fuel does not last as long in storage, that much is true. Using preservatives like Stabil on FRESH fuel takes care of that issue.
Coleman lantern fuel? That's LOW OCTANE stuff, that's why your saw runs on when running it on a hot day. Octane rating is a measure of a fuel's flash point. The higher the flash point, the hotter it has to be before it ignites from heat. It does NOT burn slower. That lantern fuel needs a low flash point to make it easy to light especially in cold weather.
Pre ignition, dentonation, pinging are the result of 2 flame fronts colliding inside the combustion chamber. One being caused by a hot spot like glowing carbon or heat of compression, the other from the spark plug. When the 2 flamefronts collide, that is the metallic "knock" heard.
Nothing wrong with the lead in the AV gas for a small engine. There will be increased combustion chamber deposits is all. If used in a vehicle with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, it will foul the sensor rendering it inoperable.
Running higher than necesary octane fuel is only wasting your money.
I too have ran my old small engines and tractors on E85 and they run very well. I will say on engines that set idle for long periods of time that they should be drained due to the alcohol attracting water.
Ethanol the enemy? Not on this planet...

 

[Ole Shovel]

Higher content fuels with ethanol & methanol work fine in the new fuel injection sytems. "New" is the key. In old ones they clean out all the crud in the tank and lines putting it into the carb. Ethanol & methanol does dry out gaskets, rubber and deteriorates many plastics faster. That is why brass floats and metal needles in the seats been used on racing carbs for years.

 

[Billy Shafer]

Ran my lawn mower on av gas for nine years. Never had a problem.

 

[JDseller]

I quit using any gas that has ethanol in it. You can buy the better grades at most BP stations around here that don"t have ethanol in them. I don"t like it in my cars because of the four to six miles per gallon mileage loss. I hate it in any small engine. It can cause so much trouble. I get a job or two each week because of the problems it causes.

 

[ISU JD]

You solved the problem in your origial post why are you bashing Ethonal. You said stations are adding water to their storage tanks because the ethonal will hold the water. Last I checked excess water in the combustion chamber is not good. The problem lies with the shady filling station NOT ethonal.

 

[crazylocha]

Some reason my beady little brain was thinking that coleman fuel was closer to Kerosene than Naptha. hmm. (Naptha is great for removing stickers and residues fwiw)

Great many of the bass boats down here in FL are having the rubber ate up by the ethanol mixes. Some of the carb compounds also having issues. Conversion kits sell like hotcakes here and are keeping some of the shops in business in these hard times. Rubber compounds seem to be the biggest parts hit. Especially when stored several times a year. It is more than normal degradation associated with these parts. Some of the local mechanics are seeing some older cars having much lessor problems. Just FWIW local impressions. Living in the middle of 20 something champion bass lakes you get some "fish tales", this is more noticeable.

One of the local tricks have done was to mix a shot glass full of acetone for every ten gallons of low grade gas (87). DONT TRY THIS ON NEW ENGINES!! Had a Tercel with almost 200,000 when started this experiment. Mileage went from 43-45 to 53-55. Stayed there for quiet few years until car died after 450,000. Always careful with mix, always done well for me. Pretty much like throwing High Octane booster into tank, without nearly the cost. Newer injected engines its not such a good idea from my mechanics advice. Older carbed engines. Kinda waiting to see before using on my 74 Ford 3000. Can recommend if get a tank full with water in it to put a "smidge" in to break water up. SeaFoam works great too and may be safer on newer cars. Local Murphy has a habit of getting water into tanks, but not purposefully, just poorly placed tank lids.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted SeaFoam works great too and may be safer on newer cars. Local Murphy has a habit of getting water into tanks, but not purposefully, just poorly placed tank lids.

Seafoam's ingredients are baby oil, Coleman lantern fuel, IPA and CO2 for fizz. Save yourself the $$$ and just dump in some gasline deicer for fuel injected vehicles.