The trouble with solar and other off-grid sources of power

[blunosr]

Hi, I'd like to do solar or wind, but the problem is that they're only good for low wattage lights. How can I power my welder, or my woodworking shop? I just can't see being off-grid.

It's great for those who just read books and garden, but I putter all the time and I need real power. These alternative energy sources just don't cut it. And the cost of the systems, just to run a few lights, seems prohibitive.

I'd love to see an accounting of the real cost of wind power, or solar, compared to standard grid power. It seems to me that the steel and copper used to make a wind turbine would require a huge amount of fossil fuels to mine, smelt, and weld together.

And the rare-earth elements, and heavy metals used in solar also cost a lot to mine, using fossil fuels. And what happens to the heavy metals when the systems are done their useful life?

There seems to be a non-green underbelly to all these alternative energies. I'd like to see a documentary look into that...

One of the recent thread had me thinking about that as I was welding up a storm in my shop. On tractor stuff of course...

Bye for now,

Troy

 

[David G]

You can light up a whole city with enough surface area.

How much have you researched this?

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 00:29:25 02/02/16) You can light up a whole city with enough surface area.

How much have you researched this?

How pray tell do you plan to light up a city at night with solar power ?

 

[Russ from MN]

Most power is needed in the daytime.

 

[Stephen Newell]

The problem with wind is the wind isn't always blowing and solar doesn't generate enough. You might try steam power to turn a generator but that would work yourself to death keeping it going.

 

[Dean]

Solar, wind, etc., are simply non viable sources of electrical power.

The simple fact that such pipe dreams cannot survive without taxpayer subsidies should make this obvious to all objective folks.

Dean

 

[flying belgian]

Oh man, hear we go again.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 01:51:56 02/02/16) Oh man, hear we go again.

o bull! Snooze. Call me when all fossil/nuclear are gone bye bye & the world is totally on solar, wind, water power.

 

[Ian Beale]

Have a read of this, particularly towards the end

http://pindanpost.com/2016/01/31/climate-idiots-shame-themselves/

If you're doubting then go to the JoNova link and follow comments

 

[Ian Beale]

Well true that sun is always shining 180 degrees away.

But what about the transmission wire problem?

 

[BhB]

put the solar cells under the streets lights

 

[Bruce from Can.]

Come on , haven't you guys heard the latest way to "store" solar energy ? You store it in one of the Great
lakes ! No kidding !! Solar panels generate the power , the power then runs giant air compressors that pump
air into huge air bags under the water in which ever Great lake is near you. So here , Toronto would have
storage cells in lake Ontario. Then when it gets dark at night , you use this compressed air to turn a
turbine to generate electric power. Don't laugh , the green weenies are already experimenting with this, with
tax payers money of course. Bruce

 

[dzc3]

Some solar power companies have batteries that store the power, then feed it back to the house at night. Most houses use little power during the day when the occupants are either at work or in school. Peak time is from 5:00 to about 10:00 then drops off the rest of the night. Welding may present a problem. Tax payers do support these ideas to a point. But then so was the REA. Oh how soon we forget!

 

[W_B]

(quoted from post at 12:55:28 02/02/16) Tax payers do support these ideas to a point. But then so was the REA. Oh how soon we forget!

REA showed real benefits and allowed the revolution in farming that freed millions from a life of rural drudgery. Wind and solar, not so much. Battery technology is NOT to the point of being capable enough to meet the needs required. It's all greenie pipe dream.

 

[centash]

Same thing said about nuclear energy at one time...

Ben

 

[ray_woods]

Seems like welding would be the easiest process to move off the grid.
All my friends justified welder/generators to their wives years ago.
Popular mechanics magazine will have you TIG welding from your 1960 alternator/generator in hours(kidding). Oxy-acetylene is another alternative.

I have photovoltaic panels, solar hot water panels, burn wood and mess around with wood gas. No desire to go off the grid. I wish I had electric at the sawmill from the grid.

What's big power 1KW,10KW, 100KW?

 

[paul]

In the 70s I was a real fan of reading up on the green movement back then. It was good down to earth folk doing their thing, and they had some
neat ideas and stuff.

Today its how do we get a big check from the govt, and how to we make others do what we want?

The down home green movement grew up, and it don't like the direction of it any more either. It stopped making sense.

I would guess getting 10% of our electricity from wind! panels! etching is a good thing! diversifying where the power comes from is a good thing.

So I'm some where in the middle.

The home tinkering stuff, like back in the 1970s, is cool. Gotta have a hobby, if folks want to do that I think the innovation and make do stuff is
neat.

Paul

 

[showcrop]

Blunosr, you don't have to go off grid in order to use alternative power sources. You CAN have your cake and eat it too. There are very few people who are actually off grid. However, I have not forgotten what JDemaris posted here probably five years ago on wind turbines. They are very expensive, they have a finite lifetime, The savings over their lifetimes that they would provide, at the cost of electric power at the time that they were being built, meant that without the federal funding they would not be economically viable, and private money would never be able to build them. So now with electric rates down, they are not capable of returning the money that we taxpayers put into them. We have to develop sources of power to replace fossil fuels, but we can't just throw tax dollars at it. Banks of solar panels on east facing low pitched roofs, covered in snow for months at a time, will never return a homeowners investment. They are a good deal only for the company that puts them up.

 

[Ken Macfarlane]

I don't know, lots of camps here run on solar. Works fine, run
table saws and circ saws etc. There are a few houses too just
due to power company quoting 50,000$ to run the poles into
the house.

Not that different than normal folks making do without 3
phase.

 

[keh]

Biltmore House, Ashville, NC was built by George Vanderbilt about 1895. It originally had self contained electric power. In the basement they had a big one cylinder engine powering a generator. They had a room about 30 x 30 AIRC with a rubber covered floor to keep batteries in. There was a debate then whether to use AC or DC power so they wired the house for both systems. As soon as commercial power became an option, they went to it and dropped the generator system. If the rich couldn't make off grid power work then, it's just as difficult for the small used today. Like the post above said, nobody has solved the battery problem.

KEH

 

[Steamboat]

For the life of me, I do not understand all the hatred displayed by some of alternative sources of energy. What do these systems do to those who bad-mouth them so much????? What is so irritating them so much that they levy such bad vibes on those systems and those that embrace them?
It is true that the wind does not always blow nor the sun always shine. However other sources of power are not constant either. I live 2 miles from a large hydro-electric dam. It does not always generate electricity, only when there is enough head, and enough demand. I live 20 miles from a coal-fired power plant, which is also only on-line during peak periods. I know little about our state Nuclear-energy plants, except that they also go down occasionally for maintenance.
What in the world is wrong with an "All the above" approach to our Nation's ever increasing need for energy sources? If a home-owner elects to have a solar panel on his roof to heat water , how is that hurting anyone else?

 

[vscummins]

We'll all be drinking that free bubbalub and eatin
that rainbow stew

 

[old-9]

Wow Bruce, looks like that "could" work. The problem would be the constant change of water level, Drive the fishermen up the wall! love it though. joe

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 00:56:40 02/02/16) Most power is needed in the daytime.

I work in the industry and know otherwise . What is your area of expertise ?

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 07:55:28 02/02/16) Some solar power companies have batteries that store the power, then feed it back to the house at night. Most houses use little power during the day when the occupants are either at work or in school. Peak time is from 5:00 to about 10:00 then drops off the rest of the night. Welding may present a problem. Tax payers do support these ideas to a point. But then so was the REA. Oh how soon we forget!

Have you sat down and calculated the size and cost of those batteries ?

 

[John T]

In my next home I plan to install a 5000 watt grid tie solar system without a doubt. At the present time the cost and payback time and figures look good so once the cost is recovered I will reap the benefit. HOWEVER for those who don't like Solar that's fine that's their free choice which I respect, but as an Electrical Engineer I'm looking at it from BOTH an economic PLUS engineering standpoint. HOWEVER I also plan to consider and/or use other alternatives such as passive solar heat, super insulation, earth sheltering, geothermal and wind BUT FROM AN ENGINEERING AND ECONOMIC VIEW. However, if a person doesnt like alternative energy, I SAY THEY SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM IT

Again its a persons free economic choice as to whether or not invest money in some forms of alternative energy. Like other investments some may be good others not so good, so do your homework, perform an economic analysis, compute the payback and recovery time PAY YOUR MONEY AND MAKE YOUR BEST INFORMED DECISIONS...

In the RV I have 400 watts of rooftop solar panels, 460 Amp Hours (4 six volt deep cycle golf cart batteries) 2400 Watt PSW Inverter, Onan 4 KW Gas Generator, AND I WOULDNT BE WITHOUT IT

To each their own as I, an Electrical Engineer, have done and plan to continue.

John T

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 07:55:28 02/02/16) Some solar power companies have batteries that store the power, then feed it back to the house at night. Most houses use little power during the day when the occupants are either at work or in school. Peak time is from 5:00 to about 10:00 then drops off the rest of the night. Welding may present a problem. Tax payers do support these ideas to a point. But then so was the REA. Oh how soon we forget!

Have you sat down and calculated the size and cost of those batteries ?

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 08:09:14 02/02/16)

(quoted from post at 12:55:28 02/02/16) Tax payers do support these ideas to a point. But then so was the REA. Oh how soon we forget!

REA showed real benefits and allowed the revolution in farming that freed millions from a life of rural drudgery. Wind and solar, not so much. Battery technology is NOT to the point of being capable enough to meet the needs required. It's all greenie pipe dream.

Battery technology can not advance to the levels desired. Unless the Almighty adds some new materials to the periodic table.
There are only so many combinations of elements to manufacture batteries from. There is a reason that the lead acid battery invented in 1859 by the French is still the storage media of choice in the latest nuclear submarines . The only other choices that operate at room temperature and atmospheric pressure is NiCi, Sodium and Lithium. That is it and all.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 08:44:21 02/02/16) In the 70s I was a real fan of reading up on the green movement back then. It was good down to earth folk doing their thing, and they had some
neat ideas and stuff.

Today its how do we get a big check from the govt, and how to we make others do what we want?

The down home green movement grew up, and it don't like the direction of it any more either. It stopped making sense.

I would guess getting 10% of our electricity from wind! panels! etching is a good thing! diversifying where the power comes from is a good thing.pl

So I'm some where in the middle.

The home tinkering stuff, like back in the 1970s, is cool. Gotta have a hobby, if folks want to do that I think the innovation and make do stuff is
neat.

Paul

3% of the power at 20% of the cost.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 09:03:43 02/02/16) I don't know, lots of camps here run on solar. Works fine, run
table saws and circ saws etc. There are a few houses too just
due to power company quoting 50,000$ to run the poles into
the house.

Not that different than normal folks making do without 3
phase.

Actually those camps are propane powered fridges, stoves, water heaters, clothes dryers/ clothes lines and LP or wood heat.
Electric is a very minute portion of the energy used at camp.

 

[Donald Lehman]

The only person I know who is completely off the electrical grid had a windmill and solar panels. He has a house and a maple syrup operation. He told me in the summer the system generates more power than he needs, but in the winter he has to supplement with a standby generator. He didn't elaborate on how often.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 09:40:59 02/02/16) For the life of me, I do not understand all the hatred displayed by some of alternative sources of energy. What do these systems do to those who bad-mouth them so much????? What is so irritating them so much that they levy such bad vibes on those systems and those that embrace them?
It is true that the wind does not always blow nor the sun always shine. However other sources of power are not constant either. I live 2 miles from a large hydro-electric dam. It does not always generate electricity, only when there is enough head, and enough demand. I live 20 miles from a coal-fired power plant, which is also only on-line during peak periods. I know little about our state Nuclear-energy plants, except that they also go down occasionally for maintenance.
What in the world is wrong with an "All the above" approach to our Nation's ever increasing need for energy sources? If a home-owner elects to have a solar panel on his roof to heat water , how is that hurting anyone else?

Because you are not an electrical engineer and do not understand the actual numbers of power generation and distribution.

 

[Donald Lehman]

He did say he was happy with the system.

 

[David G]

I agree with B&D that batteries are not feasible for mass storage.

I do not agree with him that solar and wind are not feasible for peaking energy. The sun shines the brightest in the summer when AC is needed. I have worked in the energy generation/ transmission business for 15 years and understand the dynamics of when and why the peaks occur. The sun is shining somewhere 50% of the time and the wind is always blowing somewhere. The new high voltage DC transmission lines are allowing more energy to be transmitted at lower loss than ever before.

The new technologies for semiconductor manufacturing are allowing for reduced material and more uses every year.

I do enjoy hearing B&D's opinions, but believe swaying them is not possible, just have to smile and say bless your heart.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 11:11:11 02/02/16) I agree with B&D that batteries are not feasible for mass storage.

I do not agree with him that solar and wind are not feasible for peaking energy. The sun shines the brightest in the summer when AC is needed. I have worked in the energy generation/ transmission business for 15 years and understand the dynamics of when and why the peaks occur. The sun is shining somewhere 50% of the time and the wind is always blowing somewhere. The new high voltage DC transmission lines are allowing more energy to be transmitted at lower loss than ever before.

The new technologies for semiconductor manufacturing are allowing for reduced material and more uses every year.

I do enjoy hearing B&D's opinions, but believe swaying them is not possible, just have to smile and say bless your heart.

Solar can trim peaks when the sun shines. Still need a 2nd full capacity backup generating system $$$ on standby for when wind and solar fail.
Sunlight fails to carry the peak load from 3:00PM to 8:00PM or 9:00PM
Sunlight if little value on short winter days , when covered with snow , during storms and when overcast.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:02:37 02/02/16)

(quoted from post at 09:03:43 02/02/16) I don't know, lots of camps here run on solar. Works fine, run
table saws and circ saws etc. There are a few houses too just
due to power company quoting 50,000$ to run the poles into
the house.

Not that different than normal folks making do without 3
phase.

Actually those camps are propane powered fridges, stoves, water heaters, clothes dryers/ clothes lines and LP or wood heat.
Electric is a very minute portion of the energy used at camp.

Making do" is a good term.........but for myself, I need 20,000Watts after sundown just for air-conditioning alone. With 112Watts/square foot impinging on Earth at the equator (where I do not live), cell efficiency, battery efficiency, inverter efficiency, etc., it just doesn't pencil out! MAYBE someday???but that day won't be in my lifetime if it ever comes.

 

[David G]

I believe that solar is justified in the southern latitudes, northern not, but that is where the AC load is greatest.

 

[sourgum]

Indianapolis has a 75 acre solar farm that just started electric generation 45 days ago. The farm is designed to produce 15 million KW electric yearly. It is more expensive than fossil so those who get it must pay some higher rates for this form of energy. So it can be done. Kentucky mined 21% less coal in 2015 than in 2014, most of their coal goes to electric generation. (Two coal company's went bankrupt) So if there is 21% less fossil fuel going to make electric in one state where is the rest of the energy coming from to make up this loss? Are we using 20% less power because of this? Some form of alternative energy needs to step up to make up for this. What about some states that have millions of acres of public owned land. What about Nevada. Would we miss a few acres of western lands if a few 75 acre solar farms were built and hooked into the national electric grid. If we use less and less of our fossil fuels each passing year for power generation seems logical another alternative is needed.

 

[ray_woods]

A few lifetimes from now all the homes will be zero-energy. The technology is here we just need a cash for clunkers applied to the housing industry. The next few generations of engineers will be brilliant compared to what we have now. Yes I'm an engineer.

 

[willie in mn]

Sounds interesting. My question is how do they keep the huge air bags from floating to the surface, thus defeating the whole shebang?

Willie

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:52:24 02/02/16) Indianapolis has a 75 acre solar farm that just started electric generation 45 days ago. The farm is designed to produce 15 million KW electric yearly. It is more expensive than fossil so those who get it must pay some higher rates for this form of energy. So it can be done. Kentucky mined 21% less coal in 2015 than in 2014, most of their coal goes to electric generation. (Two coal company's went bankrupt) So if there is 21% less fossil fuel going to make electric in one state where is the rest of the energy coming from to make up this loss? Are we using 20% less power because of this? Some form of alternative energy needs to step up to make up for this. What about some states that have millions of acres of public owned land. What about Nevada. Would we miss a few acres of western lands if a few 75 acre solar farms were built and hooked into the national electric grid. If we use less and less of our fossil fuels each passing year for power generation seems logical another alternative is needed.

oal fired is now natural gas fired.

 

[Dean]

No it wasn't.

I well remember the phrase "too cheap to meter."

Do you?

Dean

 

[howdy1960]

I too would enjoy not having to give my hard earned $$ to the $$ hungry power company.
However, I do realize the odds of that happening are slim to none.
Can I reduce the amount of grid power I consume? You bet I can!
Today my goal is to reduce my carbon footprint over disconnecting my grid connected house.

I'm sure most of us have heard of 'grid-tie inverters'.
On average in my area if the sun isn't shining the wind is blowing.
At 9:45 AM the sun isn't shining but there is a good breeze thus a smaller 400W homeowner sized turbine would help decrease that bill. Later today the sun is supposed to show thus a few hundred watts of solar panels would fit the bill.
Plus the power is consumed where its made.

I can put up a solar collector to decrease the amount of electricity it takes to heat my water.
A different style collector to heat the air in here to decrease the amount I give to my propane supplier.
And they can be 'completely' powered by the sun.

I can give many thousands of $$ to others to construct and put all this up for me.
OR I can putter along doing my research on safely making my own air and water collectors and install them at a fraction of the cost.
Commercially made solar panels are safer and last longer than anything I can make.

If I want to weld I can get a dinosaur fired (gasoline/diesel) generator/welder.
Yes I am still burning fossil fuel but I also have back up power should the grid go down for a while.

A quality solar panel can and will produce power for over 25 years.
Some panels made in the 60s are still in use some 50 years later.
A quality turbine can and will produce for 10 and more years.
Just like everything else I own they need maintenance from time to time.
Solar panels/ collectors need washing using water I saved when it rained.
Turbines can use same grease I use in my tractor's wheel bearings.

I do not have a stream on this property thus that is not an option for me, however I have heard of Pelton wheels still in operation some 100 years later.
How about designing and building something that makes enough power to power itself with enough left over to run the lights in my shop?
Maybe create a way to store heat from the summer sun to heat in the winter? Completely powered by the sun. Think about it. I have!

Did all of the above ideas take non green ways to make the base elements? Of course they did!
How many barrels of oil or tons of coal will I use to power my TV, or this computer, over the course of the next 25 and more years if today I do nothing?
My guess is more than it took to make the panels. And reducing my carbon footprint is to the benefit of my great grandkids when/if I ever have any.

How to dispose of in a safe and green way at the end of their life?
I would put in the recycling bin as they are finding more and more ways to recycle stuff.

 

[RJKeith]

So you run your RV with 400W of Solar and a 4000W gas generator, with a battery/inverter set up for minor power loads at night. How much do you think you save with those solar cells? Sounds like the solar panels will work great as a battery maintainer, but when you need to cook, heat, run the refrigerator or recharge those atteries, that is what the Onan is for.

 

[John T]

You ask " How much do you think you save with those solar cells?"

ANSWER I save a lot because they keep my battery energy storage bank filled so I don't need to run the genset or be plugged into shore power plus they power my LED lights and 12 VDC vent fans and 12 VDC water pump and 12 VDC appliances wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooo gotta love energy from the sun as we camp usually off the grid in dry boondock locations..

Thanks for asking, like I said I wouldn't be without solar panels on the RV

Best wishes

John T

 

[Bret4207]

(quoted from post at 12:52:24 02/02/16) Indianapolis has a 75 acre solar farm that just started electric generation 45 days ago. The farm is designed to produce 15 million KW electric yearly. It is more expensive than fossil so those who get it must pay some higher rates for this form of energy. So it can be done. Kentucky mined 21% less coal in 2015 than in 2014, most of their coal goes to electric generation. (Two coal company's went bankrupt) So if there is 21% less fossil fuel going to make electric in one state where is the rest of the energy coming from to make up this loss? Are we using 20% less power because of this? Some form of alternative energy needs to step up to make up for this. What about some states that have millions of acres of public owned land. What about Nevada. Would we miss a few acres of western lands if a few 75 acre solar farms were built and hooked into the national electric grid. If we use less and less of our fossil fuels each passing year for power generation seems logical another alternative is needed.

Couple problems with your premise. First off, the Fed gov't already "owns" far, far more land than it can according to the Constitution. 2ndly, did those cola companies go broke because of lack of demand or because the gov't regulations and taxation made it impossible to stay in business? 3rdly, you can cover Nevada, Arizona and any other desert lands you want with solar panels, but you can only transmit the power so far before it fails to deliver enough voltage, or something like that. I'm not an engineer, much less and electrical engineer and don't know the terminology, but it's the same idea as piping Great Lakes water to Nevada- not gonna work. Lastly, on several occasions where huge solar farms int he desert have been proposed, politicians have fought idea on the grounds that the shade from the panels would cool the desert too much. I kid you not.

But you are correct that logical alternatives are needed.

 

[Bret4207]

(quoted from post at 10:40:59 02/02/16) For the life of me, I do not understand all the hatred displayed by some of alternative sources of energy. What do these systems do to those who bad-mouth them so much????? What is so irritating them so much that they levy such bad vibes on those systems and those that embrace them?
It is true that the wind does not always blow nor the sun always shine. However other sources of power are not constant either. I live 2 miles from a large hydro-electric dam. It does not always generate electricity, only when there is enough head, and enough demand. I live 20 miles from a coal-fired power plant, which is also only on-line during peak periods. I know little about our state Nuclear-energy plants, except that they also go down occasionally for maintenance.
What in the world is wrong with an "All the above" approach to our Nation's ever increasing need for energy sources? If a home-owner elects to have a solar panel on his roof to heat water , how is that hurting anyone else?

It's not hate of alternative energy. It's hate of ignoring the real costs and subsidies and pollution from the mining and industry to create the raw materials for the solar panels and wind mills, etc., etc, etc. There is no "free" energy anywhere. It all comes at a cost to someone.

 

[wisbaker]

I live in North Central Iowa, on the way to work every morning I drive by hundreds of wind towers. It is my understanding that the business model (or KW balance) is you invest a lot of KWs making and
installing the wind tower and get a fraction of the energy back over the course of the life. Because of the liability they have a finite life, at a predetermined time they will be taken down even if they're
still working because their is a serious worry about them coming apart and making a new scrap yard in a 1/2 mile radius around the tower. So you can invest $1,000,000 in wind power and over the course of the
towers life recover $900,000 or less, thus the need for the subsidy.

 

[RN]

US has the 'alternative' to current fossil fuel, etc. generating publicity, tax breaks, subsidies with the current used systems available defaults. For some other perspectives, look at China and India, some areas in Mexico and Africa-- places where the existing infrastructure in US doesn't exist and Amish technology is advanced compared to what is still used. Then the 'supplemental' solar and wind powered generators become the prime generating units and the usage for frivolous things is restricted, only the very needed uses get the generating power. The beer coolers don't get used, the refrigerator to store medicine that need cooling gets the power from the solar panel and battery pack or the small wind turbine. Need emergency backup or want to watch a TV program about Kardashians?- the small electric generator with bicycle pedals to power the TV is available- and is used in US for TVs in Maricopa County Jail for the women inmates who have a 'right' to watch 2 hours a day of reality TV or Oprah shows because their lawyers persuaded the judge that denying them their video fix was 'cruel and unusual punishment' - but the sheriff said OK, they get access but have to pedal their *ss to generate the power. In some parts of world, that generator is used for the limited radio communications of more important issues- public health warnings, school lessons, ordering food and medical supplies- not the MTV video awards. The mix of old and new technologies in 'third world' can give another perspective about usefulness and cost/benefit analysis of alternative fuels, power sources, renewable energy. Dried cow patties are still used for cooking fuel some places, food blender is a mortar and pestle- a simple battery and small solar panel that can make a radio work to talk to outside of village for medical needs hauled in by donkey or back pack instead of many miles of wire and poles? And the surplus poppy gum provides the money to purchase the communication and power source finds a ready market in advanced societies. Alaska has some mixed power sources- home use of renewable wood products common, the Russian designed thermo-electric with bymetallic or Pyzioelectrc (sic?) generators in chimneys can charge the 12 volt batteries at night, Chinese pattern solar cells during day. Lots of small scale alternative samples available- but their limited to critical uses is something that has to be considered for US market where politicians are trying to make some kind of political point with economic benefits to their favored vendors who kickback campaign funds that were originally taxpayer money subsidies. RN.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 13:08:26 02/02/16) I too would enjoy not having to give my hard earned $$ to the $$ hungry power company.
However, I do realize the odds of that happening are slim to none.
Can I reduce the amount of grid power I consume? You bet I can!
Today my goal is to reduce my carbon footprint over disconnecting my grid connected house.

I'm sure most of us have heard of 'grid-tie inverters'.
On average in my area if the sun isn't shining the wind is blowing.
At 9:45 AM the sun isn't shining but there is a good breeze thus a smaller 400W homeowner sized turbine would help decrease that bill. Later today the sun is supposed to show thus a few hundred watts of solar panels would fit the bill.
Plus the power is consumed where its made.

I can put up a solar collector to decrease the amount of electricity it takes to heat my water.
A different style collector to heat the air in here to decrease the amount I give to my propane supplier.
And they can be 'completely' powered by the sun.

I can give many thousands of $$ to others to construct and put all this up for me.
OR I can putter along doing my research on safely making my own air and water collectors and install them at a fraction of the cost.
Commercially made solar panels are safer and last longer than anything I can make.

If I want to weld I can get a dinosaur fired (gasoline/diesel) generator/welder.
Yes I am still burning fossil fuel but I also have back up power should the grid go down for a while.

A quality solar panel can and will produce power for over 25 years.
Some panels made in the 60s are still in use some 50 years later.
A quality turbine can and will produce for 10 and more years.
Just like everything else I own they need maintenance from time to time.
Solar panels/ collectors need washing using water I saved when it rained.
Turbines can use same grease I use in my tractor's wheel bearings.

I do not have a stream on this property thus that is not an option for me, however I have heard of Pelton wheels still in operation some 100 years later.
How about designing and building something that makes enough power to power itself with enough left over to run the lights in my shop?
Maybe create a way to store heat from the summer sun to heat in the winter? Completely powered by the sun. Think about it. I have!

Did all of the above ideas take non green ways to make the base elements? Of course they did!
How many barrels of oil or tons of coal will I use to power my TV, or this computer, over the course of the next 25 and more years if today I do nothing?
My guess is more than it took to make the panels. And reducing my carbon footprint is to the benefit of my great grandkids when/if I ever have any.

How to dispose of in a safe and green way at the end of their life?
I would put in the recycling bin as they are finding more and more ways to recycle stuff.

A 400W wind turbine in ideal circumstances will average 150-175 watts . That is a minuscule amount of power. In particular after losses in charging batteries, discharging from the battery and operating an inverter. Enough to operate LED lights, maybe a water pump and a radio at a hunt camp or cottage .

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 12:03:17 02/02/16) A few lifetimes from now all the homes will be zero-energy. The technology is here we just need a cash for clunkers applied to the housing industry. The next few generations of engineers will be brilliant compared to what we have now. Yes I'm an engineer.

Engineer in what field ? Have you smuggled tech back from star date 41257.8 ?

 

[wisbaker]

Did you know that Hydro is not considered "clean" or "renewable" so it's really about politically correct power.