Thoughts on CRP!!! Long post/rant LOL

JDseller

Well-known Member
Wilson ind's post on controlling trees in CRP started a lively discussion on CRP. I want to share my thoughts on the issue.

The concept of the public helping to control erosion and encourage wild life is a good one. The real problem is how the current and past program has been administered.

It has a more common name around here is: Grain Farmer retirement Program. The biggest issue I have with all of the so called conservation programs is that they basically short change those that have done the right thing and not caused erosion problems or over production. That usually is the livestock/hay farmer.

Here is the local history of the CRP program. The rental rates around here in the late 1980s where about an $75-90 per acre. So the CRP program came along and the local rate for it was 15-20% higher than the current rental rates. The first contracts around here where for over $100 per acre. So that raised the rental rates for everyone, First strike against it.

Then a real nice thing was it got a bunch of younger farmers thrown off of farms they had been renting. The rules where supposed to protect the renter but they where easy to get around. The owner would just throw the long term renter off the ground. Have the farm custom farmed for one year then sign it up into the CRP program. So many retired farmers would throw the renter off and farm the government. This even prevented the natural selling of the farm at retirement too. Made land not change hands like it usually would. Second strike against it.

Then they started to take whole farms into the program. They also got fast and lose with the HEL rating. There are many farms in CRP that are not HEL. They are many times more flat than mine. You could go into the old Soil Conservation office and get your land rated how you wanted if you pushed the issue. I did not want the ASCS telling me how to run my land so very little of it is rated HEL even with many slopes over 6% grade. So there where many acres in that really resulted in very little erosion gain. Then the real kick in the butt was the guys that plowed fence to fence and caused the grain surplus got the better bids on the ground they abused. The guys that had grass strips and grass head lands where not eligible for the program. So the abusers got treated better than the good guys. Third strike against CRP.

Then they decided that we had too much corn. So they came out with the "Corn Bonus". You bid your ground in for so much an acre. Then you got paid $2.00 per your ASCS yield in a corn bonus. This bonus was paid up front with the first years rent. Remember this was in the mid to late 1980s. Farm land was still struggling to regain the losses of the early 1980s. There where farms around me bought for $700-800 per acre. They then bid them into the CRP. Several got $125 per acre bids then the had ASCS corn yields in the 150 range. So the first year payment was $125 plus $2 x 150/$300 or $450. The government paid for 50% or more of the farm in the first year. I know of very few farmers that where able to buy land then. SO Uncle Sam helped the real estate investors and other rich guys to some cheap land. This added to the fact that renters could be thrown off the land easily meant that the normal land transfer from one generation to the next was stopped/delayed. This is the reason that many guys around fifty years of age don't own much ground. The time period they should have been buying ground was interfered with by the government. This is strike number four( Program has already struck out with me long before this).

The CRP program also made absentee owner ship easier. You could buy the ground and then bid it into the CRP program and then forget it and have a nice steady check come in. Then take county boards that are incompetent( don't want to make anyone mad) to enforce any type of rules on the CRP ground and you have farms that are nothing but weeds and trees. I do mean weeds not grass. There are acres and acres of thistles spread over the country. In the late summer when they are going to seed you can drive west out of Dubuque on Route 52 and it looks like it is snowing with all of the seed blowing around. It is not as bad now because the high rental rates have pulled many acres out of the CRP but it is still an issue.

Another problem with the program is that they have allowed hay to be made off of it too many times. I think it should take a real LOCAL weather problem to allow the ground to be mowed for hay. They have made the owner give back $30 dollars an acre and he would sell the hay for $75-100 per ton. Many made $300-400 per acre. I think this charge was way too cheap. The ASCS/tax payers paid for the grass to be seeded. The ASCS/payers paid the land rental then the majority of the hay income should have gone back to the tax payers that paid the bills. Plus allowing this hay to sell just short changed the guy that was trying to make hay a cash crop. The government just caused his crop to be worth less. Hay fields should be encouraged as they really stop erosion but the CRP actually discourages hay acres by making the hay worth less.

So I think that we do need some type of conservation program. It should not be able to have whole farms bid in to the program anywhere. Lets make the money go to the areas that really have problems. Some counties may not have many acres that would qualify. Make the rules on HEL be scientific and be nationally the same. Lets have more buffer strips along water ways. We need more grass end rows and filter strips. Putting a whole field in when maybe only 10-20% of it is HEL is not good use of tax payer money. Make the bidder have to have had an active roll in the farming of the ground for 5 or more years before he can get 100% of the money. If the owner cashed rented the ground then he should get his cash rent payment then the tenant should get the rest. We need to encourage ownership of land by active farmers. If we don't then we are heading back to a feudal system with the farmers being a mere surf on the gentry's land. That is not what this country was settled for. Well I have ranted on way too long so what do you guys think???
 
'Round here, CRP bids are around $90 an acre. avrage rent for this township in 2011 was %203 an acre for crop land. Lot of renting farmers encouraged their landlord to get into CRP, got rid of the miserable to farm, often total crop loss land out of the picture - good for the renter as well as the landlord. Lot of landlords are a little bent up at how low the CRP payments are, there ain't anyone getting rich off the govt CRP payments around here!!!!

As to livestock producers being as pure as the driven snow - I say with a smile on my face; You're full of it!!! :)

Many a cattle and hog producer has said, why be stupid enough to grow corn in the 1970s-2000 when you can buy corn cheaper than you can grow it? And laughed all the way to the bank with their meat & milk checks, while corn was under $2.00 thanks to the govt. Grain farmers got a pitance from the govt to hang on, all the livestock & dairy folks got the big bucks in the form of cheap grains to feed their critters.

Things are a little more balanced out now, grain prices are competing on a global playfield and the livestock boys finally have to play on a level playing field, instead of living off the cheap corn & laughing all the way to the bank.

I think you seriously have that all messed up?

But I'm still smiling, and I raise some beef as well as grains so think I have a pretty good grasp on a complex subject.

CRP is a good thing, but it sure isn't perfect, and while I have a lot of marginal land they encourage to be entered into it, I much prefer farming my land and haven't seriously considered getting into it.

There is room to make it a better program, but man, to pick on grain farmers, we spent decades losing money and you think the grain still wasn't cheap enough to feed your critters? And you got all the benifits of the govt grain programs as they led to the super cheap grain you got to buy????

Man, that takes some gall. How much blood do you think you deserve out of the turnip?

But again - just a friendly conversation, I'm smiling, and I have a sarcastic sense of humor so see my mssage for the friendly - if slightly disagreeing - message that it is. :)

--->Paul
 
One point I would like to make about CRP is that in my area (say a 5 mile radius from my farm). There are 4 people collecting CRP money. Guess how many are (or were ever) farmers. ONE! And he's collecting only on land that is commercially worthless for anything except pasture or hay (it floods every couple of years). The 3 people who are collecting CRP are "big hunters" who bought the farms pre-enrolled in CRP and live in town and will not consider renting it out to farmers even at considerably higher prices. CRP basically pays their property tax (and then some more as a dividend) on their hunting paradise and the farms rot away.

It's too bad, because I'm desperate for just a little bit more hay ground, but so is everyone else around here. The worst part is if they would rent out that land to me it would be alfalfa with a sudex rotation and they would have more deer on that land than they knew what do to with, but they would rather not have a farmer on their land "scaring away" their trophy bucks I guess :)
 
Paul: I raise grain too. I usually have 300-400 acres under crops. I know what the grain ground generated in government payments the last decade. I have a neighbor that never has farmed over 1000 acres but has drawn 1.2 million dollars of government payments the last ten years. The FSA sent out payments just last year that amounted to over $100 per acre of corn around here. Supposedly for a loss in 2008. So in a year that the grain prices are at record highs the government is sending out cash payments to corn producers????

I have yet to find out where I can get thousands of dollars of government money for raising livestock.

The cheap grain prices where not caused by the livestock producers. If they raise too many animals/pounds then the prices drop. The grain guys just want to produce all they can without looking at the market. When the corn price is real low the grain guys think the answer is to raise a record big crop to get more money?

The livestock guy sure did not force the grain guys to raise cheap corn. Maybe the livestock guys should stop buying the ethanol by products. Then lets see what the ethanol plants will bid????

I was not starting a battle between the grain and livestock farmers but a hay field or pasture will not erode as much as a field of grain. So the point I was trying to make was that one of the big reasons for the CRP program, erosion control, was not rewarding to those that had already controlled some of the erosion problem. The stated reason for the CRP program was conservation, soil and wild life, not corn price control.

As for the livestock guys being pure as driven snow comment. I never said that but they sure did not produce their product into worthlessness. It seems that the grain guys never learn a lesson. They have a good price right now. So what do they do??? Go out an plant all the acres they can. So you think it will be the livestock farms fault when the prices fall through the floor??? That price drop will happen. The BTO that are bidding $500 per ace rent and buying 10-12K land are going to get a real education when the prices fall.

What I really was wanting to get guys to think about is the government playing games with the land/food supply. The programs will always pit one group against another. The rental rate problem was caused twenty years ago. The current CRP rates will not compete with the high grain price driven cash rent market.

What I really want is the government completely out of the farm/grain/livestock picture. I don't want some government bureaucrat deciding who gets what.
 
It still sounds like BS to me. (or basically taxpayer funded welfare for former farmers)

Why should the taxpayers pay a guy to NOT farm his/her land, I understand all the comments made. But if it is reasoned out then I should also get money for my small piece of land for allowing it to grow natural, or whatever. (I aint a farmer BTW) Should I get paid for planting trees? Or Grass land?
 
This is, of course, a political thread that will be deleted shortly.

I am an absentee landlord and former CRP beneficiary. We sold our land this year, and the new owner is taking it out of CRP. Over the years, we've received much more in CRP rent than we would have had we rented it out. That said, I think that all government programs should be evaluated against their goals: What were the program's goals, did it achieve them, and was it the most cost-effective way of doing it? This should apply to ethanol subsidies, school lunch programs, food stamps and wars fought on the other side of the world. It should apply to farm programs as well.

If we look at CRP, its intended goal was grain price stabilization (by reducing crop production) and land conservation (by planting erodible land to grass). There's no doubt it achieved both goals, but at what cost? It is an expensive program, costing the taxpayers almost two billion dollars per year. In today's budget climate, it is a difficult program to justify. Furthermore, because of the long lease terms, even if it was cut off today, we'll still be paying for it through 2020. But it is, like the rest of the farm program, hugely popular on both sides of the political fence and unlikely to disappear any time soon.
 
As a life long farmer I agree with you 100% get the Gov't out of farming period and those that can make it farm and those that can't find another way to make a living.Its really mostly a Midwestern thing where generations have now grown up having the US Taxpayer support them no different than Welfare families in the Big Cities.
 
JD and Paul I agree with most of what both of you said.

I believe high grain prices and the CRP both helped the cattle guys.

When CRP came out cattle herds were sold to enroll the rotational hay and pasture Land into the CRP. Cattle numbers went down beef prices went up.

3 to 4 years ago when grain went up, more cattle herds were sold when guys like me grew all corn and beans and stopped rotating into hay and pasture.

I have very little HEL but had 200 acres of hay and pasture to support the 80hd cow herd I had. The cows were sold early 2010.I said then cattle will go up cause numbers will go down. Cattle would be higher now if the producers would not take the cattle to higher weights then they did 5 years ago.

Biggest problem we have, just as JD said, is the government meddling in AG.

A lot of the people that got the biggest government payments live in the cities and never farmed. They bought it as an investment because of the extra return on investment doled out from the government.

This took the land ownership away from a lot of young farmers by keeping the land prices high enough the young could not afford it.

The interest rates of the 80's is what did a lot of us 50 year olds in. That is when the big down turn in farmer numbers started. When the land prices started to get down to where farmers could afford it the investers were buying and land went up again.

Will they drop farm payments? Should they?

I feel they should keep a price support system in place in case we ever need it but the direct payments should end.

Will the government allow this to happen?

I lot of people will loose there jobs if the payments end. The government will also loose the control on conservation if the payments end.

Just my thoughts.

Gary
 
I tried to remove 50 acres from the crp.In the last 3 years i recieved 20000 in payment.They want 30000 plus interest and a penalty to remove it.A loan shark would have been cheaper.
 
I don't like the govt meddling in my business either, wish they were out of it.

But - they tend to use food as a weapon - embargos - and so for that they need to come in with money to keep farming a viable business. Whare I live 1/3 of our crops, maybe more, get exported to other countries; so long as the govt plays with the exports, they can destroy ag in the USA with obne or 2 moves.

As well, food is a bit of a national security issue, it does need some sort of disaster floors.

I kinda wish they would scrap all of what they have, and work out a basic support program - something like the Counter-Cyclical program - to fill in the disaster years a little, but not very often. The counter-cyclical program is the only one I think really fills a need, and is the least-used branch of the farm programs. If they could link it to low-production and govt-created low prices, but not have all the extra LDP, loan, insurance subsidy, Sure, etc. etc. junk. Just a basic deal for real bad industry or community-recking periods.

The insurance subsidies just seems to ensure big farmers can get much bigger - it cheapens the risk of farming so lenders can make bigger loans to bigger farms. But then farmers collect the insurance, they don't struggle to plant some grain to get some sort of harvest off of flooded acres, etc. Over all, this leads to less grain produced in bad years, and those are the years we need to be working hard to make grain. Very counter-productive to take it easy & collect insurance checks in the bad years. Upsetting to world grain supplies....

So yea, there is a lot to not like about the govt farm programs. Senators from my state have played big roles in the farm bill for decades, and while their heart has been in the right place (even tho I'm from a different phylosopy...) they don't always understand the global impact of farm programs.....

Your friend that got $100 an acre in payments - was he paying $40 an acre in insurance for the revenew protection? How many bu of $6 corn did he lose in the bad weather? Did his landlords up the rent about double in the past 4 years? His $100 'free govt money' might not have gone very far, might not have been very 'free' in the big picture, if we know the full story, not just 1/2 of it.

I think there is more for us to agree about than argue about. :) Some of your comments on grain vs livestock guys is the same old 'kick the other person' stuff in my mind, but nothing I haven't heard before, and the grain farmers kick the other way too so it's all good. :)


--->Paul
 
JDSeller, I agree with what you said. In addition, many of these acres should never have been allowed into the CRP because they were nothing more than cow pasture hills to start with. The government allowed them to be torn up (mistake) and then paid big to seed them back down. Like most government entities they create a crisis and then throw money at it under the guise of "helping". To this day I can tear up any hill around but cannot clear any bottom ground timber that would produce twice what the hill would. And it wouldn't erode, either. Mike
 
Government programs have rewarded the farmers who have done the worst job of farming, as least it has worked that way in Ky. Some land that was once in row crops is so steep that rows were planted up and down the hill as it was too steep to run a combine on the contour. Those farmers ran to the farm office crying for help, "my farm is washing away". They now have large grain bases and are rewarded for exporting their topsoil to New Orleans.

The farmers that had livestock rotated their crops and took care of their land have small grain bases, so small payments. Joe
 
One common thread here in all these posts,and i assure you I am not trying to step on anyones toes,is there seems to be a huge resentment against fellows who took the option to make more/most money on THIER own land.I dont farm anymore,though i did for 60 years, other than to plant a few food plots for the kids. But let me assure you,if 1/10 of what you guys say is actually happening,such as folks recieving crp money for land they(or NO ONE ELSE) has farmed for the last few years,then I agree its wrong.BUT No where in the program does it say you personally have to farm it,only that you be the legal owner and its been farmed, and you have the records of such. As for highly erodable land, wind erosion takes more land in the US than ANYTHING else,and dead flat level farm ground is more susceptable than anywhere else. The very makeup of the soil might be the factor in wheather land is erodable or not. And farms in areas where full tillage is still the norm its a huge problem! As for the absentee owner deal,how many of our children really either want to farm,or live close enough to profitably farm a place? closest of Mine lives a hundred and twenty miles from the NEAREST farm,( and theres some he's never even seen),has a wife ,three daughters,a home etc. Is it really reasonable to think he would move his family,give up two careers,move to a farm with no house or any amenities whatsoever? OR would it be more reasonable for me to leave him and my daughter these places,to rent,sell, move to,or put in crp as thier lives dictate. Maybe I should simply sell it all to some young person who more than likely couldnt make it pay and would lose it to the bank? BE honest,and really think about it,and decide which of your neighbors you would want to farm your land. Do you really want him/her doing all those things that annoyed you all those years,on YOUR place? If he did get in a finacial bind,whos land would be the first to suffer, yours or his??? these and a thousand more questions are what folks my age,and many others here,face every day.
In the end the only REAL thing you own is that land. That same land you cussed as worthless,those rocks that you turned up every year,that tree limb that you always had to duck under and meant to cut for 60 years. But never did because it shaded a place for lunch when your new wife brought it to you ,or the kids had a swing there. All those things are the things that are real. That money in the bank,that promise of possible future rent from some young man that you cant even understand most the time,is just paper and words,that will disapear like smoke from a grass fire.Whats real is that land that you can touch ,feel and smell. That one thing that there never will be anymore of. That one solid piece of this idiotic world that has any real sense of place and time and substance is that land. So do you sell it? Do you rent it to a stranger? Or do you cover it with grass, put it to rest like a old close friend,do you lay it by for your future generations,hoping that maybe just one will touch it and feel it and breath it in? real deep so it becomes a part of them? Thats what a lot of old farmers are wondering now,the average age of the American farmer is over 70. Farms are being lost to developers, corporations,at a unprecidented rate in the US. On this board there are many young folks wanting to farm,but outside of here how many really are? Like I say I'm old and used up. But to all of the older guys like me,or non resident landowners i know, the decision to go with crp is more of a peace of mind issue than a monetary one. AND Just so you know,Ive never taken a dime of CRP money personaly,dont intend to,but lots of the land I own has been in crp one time or another,and ive BOUGHT the seed,and planted hundreds of acres of crp grass on my own over the years. I'll buy and plant more if I can get it and I live long enough.But if my son or daughter decides to go with that option I wont think ill of them. After all,even the most money hungry of us would agree that that land sitting unused,with no income is a liability,if it at least cant pay the taxes. If crp does that and keeps this land for their kids or grandkids,I'll back it as long as I'm able. BUT If it helps ,think of it this way,if that old farmer next door puts his place in crp,or one of the kids he left it to does. Its generally safe from developers and things. As long as the crp money pays the taxes it can set there unmolested. Start saving your money now,in 20 years or so the option will be up again. And if you pay cash after twenty years,your still better off than if you bought on a thirty year note with someone elses money. Of course you lose that sense of instant gratification,but you also probably would be in a better position to utilize it also.
 
(quoted from post at 02:13:54 06/15/12) It still sounds like BS to me. (or basically taxpayer funded welfare for former farmers)

Why should the taxpayers pay a guy to NOT farm his/her land, I understand all the comments made. But if it is reasoned out then I should also get money for my small piece of land for allowing it to grow natural, or whatever. (I aint a farmer BTW) Should I get paid for planting trees? Or Grass land?



Agreed
 
just fyi,theres all kinds of gov programs around that will pay you to plant trees,theres also ones that pay you to simply do nothing,just fence your place off and leave it alone. Crp simply pays you to plant grass. They all require some effort on your part. the biggest single complainers here,(go back and read every post),is from folks upset that they cannot rent or buy this land..the fact that 99% of them couldnt afford it anyway is immaterial to them.Theres land for sale everywhere,why dont they buy it?someone owns 1000 acres and the fellow next door is mad because he only owns 10? what is that to you if they own a thousand?they bought it or someone in thier family did. why would folks be upset because the man with a thousand acres got more money for putting it in crp? it pays on a per acre basis,go buy more land and you'll get more also! shoot,if you can buy land,(as in have the financial rescources OR more importantly credit)if the program pays 100 a acre for 20 years buy any place you can find for less than 2000 an acre and retire! but youve of course got to pay maintenance costs,taxes,etc etc.that cuts into your PURE profit.But if you have to actually DO something for that money,what happened to that free gov handout?Thats strange,all these gov programs require you to PRODUCE something.
 
I have no problem at all with old farmers or their heirs owning and hanging onto the family farm and farming it, putting to crp or renting it to someone else.

I have problems with the investor groups out of Chicago, doctors and lawyers buying as an investment causing land to go higher for those who want to care for the land themselves.

Gary
 
Like so many big brother government programs designed by politicians to help some particular constituency and garner votes, the "law of unintended consequences" eventually rears its ugly head and as we know once a government program comes into existense its almoast impossible to shut down. Sure some are good and indeed help but so many and some subsidy progrqams just continue to throw money at certain situations and disrupt normal market forces that are good at eventual self correction if left alone by the government. At a time when the government has to borrow like 41 cents for every dollar spent and the national debt is a crippling 16 TRILLION some spending (including entitlements) simply has to slow down or were gonna end up like Greece and Spain and China is going to own us grrrrrrrrrr As typical, however, as long as the inevitable cuts dotn affect us personally its one thing versus when its our handouts that come under the chopping block, such is human nature OH WELL

God Bless yall regardless if big brother government is your savior or individual responsibility and free market capitalism versus socialism ITS YOUR CHOICE SO GET OUT AND GET TO WORK YALL

John T Christian Conservative
 
I think that the mentality that your age group has is one of the biggest reasons why the farmers average age is 70. Did all the guys go out and buy all the implements, land and such needed to start farming or were they helped by a family member or close neighbor. Did all the guys that started farming make it like you did? But you do not want to sell to a younger person for fear he will not make it. So you will hold onto the ground and pass it on to your kids who do not want anything to do with it. Then what happens. They either keep it and rent it out to the highest bidder or sell it to the highest bidder, the BTO. I am not trying to upset anyone, but you here everybody complain on here about the BTO's, but you will not try to do anything to break this cycle you have started.
 
No,most folks around here are not really big time operators.total I have 780 acres leftof which about 99% of it is not fit to farm and never was,the rest of the 2000 i farmed once has been sold, and all to younger folk who are farming far more than i ever did. Lots of folks who started farming when i did didnt make it,AND i wouldnt have either if i hadnt worked a full time job(or two)since I was 13.The reason I want to hold it for the kids is simply because thats all I have to give them. They use it, they just dont farm it. All but about 25 acres has been planted back to native or crp grass.I dont owe a soul one penny, all of my equipment is probably as old or older than anyones here, and is patched and repaired everywhere or worn smooth out.If they sell it,rent it,or farm it,wont make any difference to me.until i'm dead and buried i'll control it and if needed I'll sell it in a heartbeat.I have standing offers on every inch. And I intend to spend all the money I can on me and my wife enjoying ourselves finally as long as she can go. Until last year 500 acres of this ground WAS leased out. Again to a fine young man.I stopped the lease last year because of the drought,and to try to let the grass survive.Didnt hurt him any,he couldnt feed his cattle and sold them all but a few head before hand.Couldnt use this place anyway because of no water.and he moved them off long before the lease ended,so he could water them at home.(And I even gave him a half years rent back because he couldnt use it!)I have nothing at all against a young farmer,Ive gave several of them tractors and equipment over the years to help them get started.I dont consider them buisness competitors,or anything simply because i know i can sell my cattle and crops just where they do.And more than one has keys to my barns and equipment storage in case they need something when I'm not around.Why would I wish anyone of them,yourself included anything but the best? its not like folks wont buy all we both can grow. There is one thing I have against some i have to admit,they have this mistaken belief that they are owed something somehow.That someone should GIVE them a chance for some reason.But out here in the real world you TAKE a chance. if you cant find land in your area,theres no chains holding you from going elsewhere. I see land for sale nearly every day and most of it makes what i have left look really bad.several auctions this weekend in fact.to bid all you do is hold your hand up.For your chance, step up and step out there.all it takes is a little luck and a lot of want to.
 
I certainly don't mean this as a personal attack, but I don't get your point. It would seem that you think that the landowners somehow owe you something.........even if it's just a chance. I think it's theirs to do with as they see fit. As far as the BTOs, I'm guessing that unless there is a total meltdown of the economy, we ain't seen nothing yet. For a long time, I had a medium/large operation......for my area.... w/2000 mostly rented acres in row crop, hay and cattle. Been retired a few years and I'm guessing the average sized operation in my county is between 3500 and 5000 acres........for FULL-TIME farmers.
 
You said that well. We will for sure end up like Greece and other European nations. The entitlement programs SSI, Welfare (all forms), Medicare, Medicaid, will become the demise of the USA.
When the dollar becomes a worthless piece of paper then it will become everyman for himself, protect yourself from the massive Tsunami of crime.
 
I totally agree with you that nobody is owed anything. I also agree that if a person wants to do it they have to take a chance. My point is that we are getting land owners that are 2-3 generations removed from farming. Do you think they will have the same respect and working knowledge of the ground as you do? Or do you think it will be more about getting the most money per acre for rent or cash sale? Who do you think will bid the most the BTO or the little guy?
 
Entitlement programs? SS, Medicare, are DUE to those of us who paid into it all of our working years. SSI and Medicaid are programs to pay for disabled, and yes, often abused. Don"t even think that welfare programs are entitlement- they didn"t pay squat for the benefits....often 2-3 generations of lazy people that never held a job. They deserve nothing just because they exist. We paid our share....they are parasites.
 
jackinok, I'll respond to this and your response the other day to the post about getting rid of the 2" trees.

1.should I go on SS disability? That would give me peace of mind that I won't have to deal with some employer who might make me slightly uncomfortable. Same concept, you don't want to deal with the neighbor rent deal so you get gov't money.
2. 20 years from now that ground will be trashed from sitting neglected. Why save the topsoil on ground thats going back to trees? Trees grow anywhere, even on old coal mine spill piles. If we're going to trash ground as CRP why not use it up before we throw it away. Rabbits don't know the difference between topsoil and subsoil.
3. Show me hay ground that only produces a crop 1 out of 5 years. It doesn't exist. If it can grow its "native" grasses then it can grow hay and feed cows that feed the world.

You've got me so aggravated now that I'm going to write my representatives about CRP as soon as I get this posted.
 
Paul the real problem was that even though 2008 was real wet and Cedar Rapids flooded most of the farmers around here had record crop yields. I personally broke the 200 bushel average that year for the first time. We all got that payment as most of Eastern Iowa was declared a disaster area. I had some wash outs but most of my corn was three feet tall before we got the hard rains. It really liked the hot wet weather.

I agree that there should be a safety net but I want it real close to the floor. I still want the farmer to feel some real pain when there are problems. If we make them too generous than it encourages bad behavior. I don't mind being knocked down but just not knocked out of the fight.

I also want a hard cap on ALL government payments and programs. 800-1000 acres is way more than enough to make a living for one family on( Mid-west grain producer. Different amounts for different areas would be OK). Maybe they would have to work a little harder an not buy the newest and biggest tractor every few years but they can make a living.

Then those that want to get real big let them. No payments or Government insurance/bail outs. We had big corporate farms try to take over farming in the early part of the last century. They found out it did not work long term. Let those today try it and see how it goes. Just don't let the government subsidize them.
 

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