TO 20, 30, 8/9N Updraft carb, no power uphill especially.

[markusgarvey]

You need a fuel pump.
Gravity may be able to supply enough fuel on level ground. but not going uphill and you won't really notice it going downhill.
Larger fuel line will mask the issue.
No more than 4 psi.
That is all.

 

[Jim L WA]

Sounds like a band-aid to me. These old tractors have been going up, down and sideways for 70 to 80 years with gravity feed. So did the old Model A.

 

[markusgarvey]

Sounds like a band-aid to me. These old tractors have been going up, down and sideways for 70 to 80 years with gravity feed. So did the old Model A.

It's called an upgrade. They also need fuel pickups on the other end of the tank.

You are saying that 80 yr old tech can't be improved.
I have been a professional mechanic for 45 years and have rebuilt my share of 8N, 9N's and Fergusons, IH, John Deer's et al.

An engine with 6.5:1( Ferguson's Continental for example) compression is a prime candidate for a turbo. You can buy a cheap Chinese turbo for under 200 bucks that can give you an extra hp and torque when you really need it.
A good relational constant to match boost with power and torque
e.g. for every 1lb of boost you gain 4% hp and torque.
I'd assume this is a fairly linear increase.
Install is a breeze

Throttle body injection will give much better performance and fuel efficiency on a gasoline engine. Or you can use an old Diesel injector pump (with 2 stroke oil in fuel and correctly timed) drill the intake to accept injectors and get better reliability and much improved fuel atomization=better performance.

So tell me all about how 100 yr old tech is good enough.
example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/364620249825?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

 

[Mad Farmer]

Never had a problem going uphill with my N or Ferguson. The fuel systems are utter simplicity and as reliable as the sun rising.

Tell me about your cheap chi-com trubo 80 years from now.

 

[olddavid]

Never had a problem going uphill with my N or Ferguson. The fuel systems are utter simplicity and as reliable as the sun rising.

EDIT: As Mad Farmer's quote shows as blocked I am adding part of the quote to my message:
"Never had a problem going uphill with my N or Ferguson. The fuel systems are utter simplicity and as reliable as the sun rising."
Agreed. I'm not totally a purist as shown by the 12 volt alternator system on my TE-20. Mark, I'll conceed that you are likely right about more power and fuel efficiency with a turbo or fuel injection, but the original systems work well even if they are old technology.

 

[Mad Farmer]

EDIT: As Mad Farmer's quote shows as blocked I am adding part of the quote to my message:
"Never had a problem going uphill with my N or Ferguson. The fuel systems are utter simplicity and as reliable as the sun rising."
Agreed. I'm not totally a purist as shown by the 12 volt alternator system on my TE-20. Mark, I'll conceed that you are likely right about more power and fuel efficiency with a turbo or fuel injection, but the original systems work well even if they are old technology.

I also like the fact that you can repair nearly everything with what you can fit in the toolbox.

 

[markusgarvey]

You lose 3.5% of your HP for every 1k rise in elevation due to less air density. So I lose 17.5% of my HP at 5k feet (lower oxygen level}s. Thats a lot considering a fresh from the factory TO-30 is 31 HP . That is why a cheap chinese turbo looks really good to me. I have heard just recently that water injection can get quite a bit more power. There is even a plug in just the right place in the intake manifold. All you need is a reservoir and pump and an atomizing nozzle and some kind of switch.
Check it out. The video below gets some insane power doing this running a more aggressive tune
Since you really can't change the AFR like you can in his engine You could advance the ignition lean it out and make an old tractor get more power without knock and overheating.

There used to be Small and Big Block Chevys, and Fords too I think, that injected water into the exhaust port. You will usually see the tubes crimped off. At the exhaust port the only benefit might be emission and not power but they had rust issues at the exhaust ports and manifold.
You can get all you need from a hardware store for next to nothing. I'm gonna try it soon.

 

[olddavid]

An apology is in order. I thought you were somehow blocking Mad Farmer. Turns out somehow he got on my ignore list. I don't know how that happened. I didn't do it deliberately.

I see your problem. Not nearly as much air at 5000 ft. A jet change in the carburetor might help. I would caution that these modifications might cause more problems than power gained but if you're determined, go for it! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Ericp351]

You need a fuel pump.
Gravity may be able to supply enough fuel on level ground. but not going uphill and you won't really notice it going downhill.
Larger fuel line will mask the issue.
No more than 4 psi.
That is all.

I'll bite/ guess: you drive a stupid nip Subaru and dig large chicks. "pro mechanic"?????..... Ever hear of Air Injection tubes? Hint- early pollution systems, thru 80's. Water injection- used some pleasure boats. Aftermarket. Think Lakes, Coasts. Check a map.

 

[Ericp351]

It's called an upgrade. They also need fuel pickups on the other end of the tank.

You are saying that 80 yr old tech can't be improved.
I have been a professional mechanic for 45 years and have rebuilt my share of 8N, 9N's and Fergusons, IH, John Deer's et al.

An engine with 6.5:1( Ferguson's Continental for example) compression is a prime candidate for a turbo. You can buy a cheap Chinese turbo for under 200 bucks that can give you an extra hp and torque when you really need it.
A good relational constant to match boost with power and torque
e.g. for every 1lb of boost you gain 4% hp and torque.
I'd assume this is a fairly linear increase.
Install is a breeze

Throttle body injection will give much better performance and fuel efficiency on a gasoline engine. Or you can use an old Diesel injector pump (with 2 stroke oil in fuel and correctly timed) drill the intake to accept injectors and get better reliability and much improved fuel atomization=better performance.

So tell me all about how 100 yr old tech is good enough.
example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/364620249825?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

Public service- Need to address this dribble. 1) assume 2/3 fuel tank level. Please advise at what angle can this tractor NOT supply fuel to carb via gravity with over 6" head?? Any chance that the machine can operate at that angle? Remember - fuel in carb is about at atmo press. Level is all matters. How it gets there matters not. Fuel pump-gravity- bucket bigrade++, irrelevant!!. 2) How do you compute that "4% HP AND torque thing? Do you know that HP is merely computed from torque and speed (think force, distance-good, to power-work) Power is work in time, thus you need speed (rpm) for HP as you measure torque. Torque = hp at one point: at a speed over twice where these engines work at. In the real world, a turbo may increase HP in a tractor engine at a RPM level impractical for task + drivetrain. In theory, you take boost and simply divide by atmo press (use 14 psi for your local) = theoretical gain. Big hint - you will not get there. Example: 120 CID engine, 7 psi boost. 7/14 = 1/2. 120 cid engine THINKS it is 180 cid,: 120 cid atmo, + 60 cid bigger via 7 psi boost. If you had breathing (flow)- you don't, air charge cooling - (you don't), then and only then a more or less 30 hp engine may- after adjusting carb for new flow, make about 45 hp. 3) Lastly (stupidly bores me) throttle body injection WILL NOT guarantee better performance! Think Volumetric efficiency. How you get there does not matter, only getting there. You would be much better off porting heads, (flow), shaving them (comp ratio- Otto cycle- basic thermo dynamics) , reducing friction (heat=bad) et cetera.

 

[markusgarvey]

I'll bite/ guess: you drive a stupid nip Subaru and dig large chicks. "pro mechanic"?????..... Ever hear of Air Injection tubes? Hint- early pollution systems, thru 80's. Water injection- used some pleasure boats. Aftermarket. Think Lakes, Coasts. Check a map.

I drive a 2012 Cadillac SRX 3.6 performance AWD, 99 C5 LS1 w/ 243 LS6 243 heads and intake, cam via Texas Cams w/500 whp, but blueprinted up to 700 hp, building a 68 GTO w/ roller 413, a 95 f-350 7.3 flatbed and 95 f250 4x4 w/460 that I'm putting the highlight cam I can use w/o having to install heavier valve springs and adjustable roller rockers.

So that is a fail for you Bubba.

Yeah I forgot about air injection. That was a long time ago.
1962 Olds Jetfire had a water/methanol injection system as well as Chrysler and lately BMW and Saab. It was also used in old fighter aircraft.

I like all girls and big girls are just fine up to a point.

I installed an electric fuel pump yesterday and it works perfect. I can pull a scraper blade uphill with no problem now. Never could do it before with 2 different carbs. As far as I can tell jet selection for those cars is limited and you need to jet down for higher elevation. But with the electric fuel pump it runs perfect.

 

[markusgarvey]

Public service- Need to address this dribble. 1) assume 2/3 fuel tank level. Please advise at what angle can this tractor NOT supply fuel to carb via gravity with over 6" head?? Any chance that the machine can operate at that angle? Remember - fuel in carb is about at atmo press. Level is all matters. How it gets there matters not. Fuel pump-gravity- bucket bigrade++, irrelevant!!. 2) How do you compute that "4% HP AND torque thing? Do you know that HP is merely computed from torque and speed (think force, distance-good, to power-work) Power is work in time, thus you need speed (rpm) for HP as you measure torque. Torque = hp at one point: at a speed over twice where these engines work at. In the real world, a turbo may increase HP in a tractor engine at a RPM level impractical for task + drivetrain. In theory, you take boost and simply divide by atmo press (use 14 psi for your local) = theoretical gain. Big hint - you will not get there. Example: 120 CID engine, 7 psi boost. 7/14 = 1/2. 120 cid engine THINKS it is 180 cid,: 120 cid atmo, + 60 cid bigger via 7 psi boost. If you had breathing (flow)- you don't, air charge cooling - (you don't), then and only then a more or less 30 hp engine may- after adjusting carb for new flow, make about 45 hp. 3) Lastly (stupidly bores me) throttle body injection WILL NOT guarantee better performance! Think Volumetric efficiency. How you get there does not matter, only getting there. You would be much better off porting heads, (flow), shaving them (comp ratio- Otto cycle- basic thermo dynamics) , reducing friction (heat=bad) et cetera.

Starving for fuel going up hill raising float level worked somewhat but ran too rich leak fuel when stopped. There was no in between. On my property I am going uphill or downhill at steep angles.

Fuel pump worked. Runs perfect now.

I didnt computer the power loss, someone else did.

Turbocharging At Elevation

A naturally aspirated combustion engine will lose 3% of its power for every 1,000 ft of elevation gain. Add a Garrett turbocharger to minimize the loss

www.garrettmotion.com

I'm glad I came here. Everyone seems to know-it all!

 

[Mad Farmer]

I'm glad my 9N and TO-20/30 don't have fuel pumps. I only have to worry about gravity going bad.

You could have went the full Monte and put your fuel pump inside the gas tank too....that makes changing it fun when it breaks.

I think what you need is a turbo diesel 4WD tractor made outside of the USA.

 

[Ericp351]

Very well said, Mad Farmer. Little hope here, as he claims to have put a rather nifty and old Mopar engine in a Pontiac! Why fix a simple carb, screen, and line when you can hack-in a fuel pump! I think when a "professional mechanic" can't tell the difference between an air line and some 'water feed' system that the Chinese should bail him out! Hopefully he will only start the drivers seat area on fife, as I like these old machines.

 

[markusgarvey]

Very well said, Mad Farmer. Little hope here, as he claims to have put a rather nifty and old Mopar engine in a Pontiac! Why fix a simple carb, screen, and line when you can hack-in a fuel pump! I think when a "professional mechanic" can't tell the difference between an air line and some 'water feed' system that the Chinese should bail him out! Hopefully he will only start the drivers seat area on fife, as I like these old machines.

WHAT??? It's a 400 Pontiac punched out .060 over.
YOU FAIL!

 

[markusgarvey]

I'm glad my 9N and TO-20/30 don't have fuel pumps. I only have to worry about gravity going bad.

You could have went the full Monte and put your fuel pump inside the gas tank too....that makes changing it fun when it breaks.

I think what you need is a turbo diesel 4WD tractor made outside of the USA.

it probably wouldn't need a fuel pump if I didn't live in an extreme environment...but isn't it good to know?

If you have any common sense and read all the rigs I own, you would see I buy American. Yeah, I will buy a cheap chinese turbo to give it a try...so fk'n what?


I'll bet you drive a Tundra or some crap like that...lmao.

 

[Mad Farmer]

it probably wouldn't need a fuel pump if I didn't live in an extreme environment...but isn't it good to know?

If you have any common sense and read all the rigs I own, you would see I buy American. Yeah, I will buy a cheap chinese turbo to give it a try...so fk'n what?


I'll bet you drive a Tundra or some crap like that...lmao.

Except the gto, not much of what you drive is made in America anymore. And the parts you source will not be from America.

Even the 95 Ford was made with parts not from Detroit, Hecho en Mexico.

I've never owned a foreign made car/truck/tractor, just German made chainsaws, before Stihl started outsourcing.

My newest truck/car, made in USA, before GM went Gooberment Motors and built a factory in Brazil with their bailout monies.

and a

German Stihl, with a 46 Chevy in the background. Both of those are easy to work on.

 

[Ericp351]

You said 413. A 400 Pontiac, with very bad bores, is a 400 Pontiac. My personal smallest is a 455. Will give you a bit 'o credit as you ain't afraid to call a ladies V6 Cadillac station wagon "your rig". Very 'Extreme". Last free tip: if you must try to be pedantic, you must also be at least somewhat correct.