Trouble starting 1951 8N side mount

[Premie-farmer]

Hi gang,
Trying to get the old girl started after the 2009 KY ICE STORM of the century. She was coated with about 1/4 inch of ice after the shed roof collapsed. No obvious damage from roofing, she just won"t start. Turns over fine but no ignition. Here is what I"ve done thus far. Battery was frozen (cables were not connected) so purchased a new one since old one wouldn"t acccept a charge after thawing. Cleaned the points with a dollar bill (points, plugs, condenser, rotor newly installed last Spring 2008, new plug wires and wiring harness installed Spring 2007 as was coil). Verified point gap at 0.015. New battery same results turns over but no start. Gas flowing to carb (had ran her until she stopped from fuel starvation when she was put up for winter). Have 6.81V at battery, same at bottom stud on terminal block with key switch turned on (0V with key off), 6.81V primary side of coil with key on. She still just turns the starter over but no ignition. So any ideas?

 

[Premie-farmer]

(quoted from post at 07:37:37 02/09/09) Hi gang,
Trying to get the old girl started after the 2009 KY ICE STORM of the century. She was coated with about 1/4 inch of ice after the shed roof collapsed. No obvious damage from roofing, she just won"t start. Turns over fine but no ignition. Here is what I"ve done thus far. Battery was frozen (cables were not connected) so purchased a new one since old one wouldn"t acccept a charge after thawing. Cleaned the points with a dollar bill (points, plugs, condenser, rotor newly installed last Spring 2008, new plug wires and wiring harness installed Spring 2007 as was coil). Verified point gap at 0.015. New battery same results turns over but no start. Gas flowing to carb (had ran her until she stopped from fuel starvation when she was put up for winter). Have 6.81V at battery, same at bottom stud on terminal block with key switch turned on (0V with key off), 6.81V primary side of coil with key on. She still just turns the starter over but no ignition. So any ideas?

Oops sorry it's a 1952 8N silly fingers>

 

[souNdguy]

Set your points correctly.. then post back..

SIDE MOUNT points set at .025

FRONT MOUNT points set at .015

You have a side mount!.. thus your points are set wrong...

soundguy

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:37:37 02/09/09) Hi gang,
Trying to get the old girl started after the 2009 KY ICE STORM of the century. She was coated with about 1/4 inch of ice after the shed roof collapsed. No obvious damage from roofing, she just won"t start. Turns over fine but no ignition. Here is what I"ve done thus far. Battery was frozen (cables were not connected) so purchased a new one since old one wouldn"t acccept a charge after thawing. Cleaned the points with a dollar bill (points, plugs, condenser, rotor newly installed last Spring 2008, new plug wires and wiring harness installed Spring 2007 as was coil). Verified point gap at 0.015. New battery same results turns over but no start. Gas flowing to carb (had ran her until she stopped from fuel starvation when she was put up for winter). Have 6.81V at battery, same at bottom stud on terminal block with key switch turned on (0V with key off), 6.81V primary side of coil with key on. She still just turns the starter over but no ignition. So any ideas?

gap should be 0.025, not 0.015 on your side distr, but that isn't keeping it from firing. You say 6.81 volts to coil, key on. What happens to voltage at the other coil terminal (the terminal wired to distributor) when cranking? It should be battery voltage when points open,and zero when points closed. Is that the case? You should see this as ammeter needle movement reflecting on/off on/off of coil current during cranking with ignition key on. If steady high (battery voltage) then you have open circuit (no continuity to ground via points)....check points and copper strap from points to insulated feed thru in side of distr & the wire up to coil from distr terminal.
If steady low (zero volts) check for a short to ground along the same path described above, with emphasis in the feed thru in side of disrt body.
Be sure and post back.

 

[jack harmon]

try checking for fire on coil wire that may narrow your search down,could have a wet dist cap you may try spraying some wd 40 in it let it set a few minutes and then wipe it out good.

 

[Premie-farmer]

Thanks for the info on the points guys. My red owners manual listed the point gap at 0.015. I'll try that this afternoon when I get home. The voltage on the ohter side of the coil did bounce around when I cranked it this weekend.

 

[souNdguy]

the wire leading to the distrib should go from bat to 0 as the points open and close.. 0 when closed.. bat when open..

soundguy

 

[Dell (WA)]

Premie.......think about it, yer sidemount points gap is 0.025" and as the rubbing block wears, the points gap narrows and it gitts harder and harder to start with weak sparkies. Wannna guess what a 0.015" points gap does to yer sparkies??? NO SPARKIES I'll bett'cha. ........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

 

[Premie-farmer]

Yeah, that makes sense Dell, that's why I checked the gap first off, I've found that I need to regap it a few times during the season (mind gets fuzzy about things I don't do very often hmmm) and the little red owners manual I have just has the wrong gap listed. I orginally thought it was 0.025 but when I checked the manual and read 0.015 I thought I must have been cornfused with the spark plug gap which the manual listed at 0.025. Hopefully, when I get home and can re-gap the points the old girl with fire up with a hot battery. She fired right away back in October before I put her away for the winter.

 

[Anonymous-0]

The only thing I could suggest that has not already been mentioned is to check for moisture under the distributer cap. Also check it for cracks.

 

[Premie-farmer]

OK, here is what I did tonight. Regaped the points to 0.025. No moisture or cracks noticed in the distributor cap. Upon buttoning up and attempting to start still no turn over. Checking voltage on Batt side of coil 6.8V with key on, at stud on Dist at wire from coil 0-3V.
Ideas?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 19:04:43 02/09/09) OK, here is what I did tonight. Regaped the points to 0.025. No moisture or cracks noticed in the distributor cap. Upon buttoning up and attempting to start still no turn over. Checking voltage on Batt side of coil 6.8V with key on, at stud on Dist at wire from coil 0-3V.
Ideas?

OK, "no turn over" to ROW means, engine does not rotate via starter. "Does not fire up and run, means engine will 'turn over with starter, but not run'. Where does your tractor fit in?
At distr stud, you see 0-3v. What does that mean? Varies 0 to 3? Somewhere in between? 0 with points closed & 3 with points open?
To commandeer a phrase from Mr. Dell, "we ain't mind readers, or don't have crystal ball".. Help us out.

 

[Premie-farmer]

By no turn over (I noticed that after I hit post sorry) I ment no start still turns over with starter. The voltage readings at Dist stud were it would show 3V max and then go to 0V then 3V then 0V. I took that 0V was when the points closed. I'm guessing from reading an earlier post that the stud at the dist is shorted.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Do you have voltage across the points when they are open? Check it w/ your meter. Then, run a new clean dollar bill through the points. New points sometimes have a residue & old points can corrode, or get grease from the distributor cam on them. Or, you could have used a dirty feeler gauge. (I always spray mine off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts & often hard to find because it is usually an intermittent short. (If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.)If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Check continuity in the primary wire as well.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
50 Tips

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 19:47:47 02/09/09) By no turn over (I noticed that after I hit post sorry) I ment no start still turns over with starter. The voltage readings at Dist stud were it would show 3V max and then go to 0V then 3V then 0V. I took that 0V was when the points closed. I'm guessing from reading an earlier post that the stud at the dist is shorted.

oesn't sound shorted to me.....if it were, it would stay zero all the time as you turn over with starter. 3v for the high sounds a bit low. Unless you have a weak battery, you probably have some dirty connections in order to see half the battery voltage lost. You shouldn't see more than 2 or 3 tenths of a volt drop/loss on the connections & cable due to starter current and a battery drop to approx. 4.5 under starter load.
*****
But more importantly, do you have a spark? Have you opened up the gap on a plug & grounded the body of the plug to the engine & cranked while observing for a spark?

 

[Anonymous-0]

your voltage coming out of coil on primary wire to dist should be the same as going into coil on switch side(WITH POINTS OPEN).its pretty common for dist wire to short out where it goes through dist body.what i would do is pull primary wire off side of dists and check voltage on it from wire to a good ground if you dont have battery voltage you've got yourself a bad coil,(primary winding shorted)if you do have battery voltage you have a problem in dist. either,wire pass thru shorted,or likely a bad condenser or points grounding.I would suspect the condenser

 

[Anonymous-0]

just thought of smething else,check the wire to dist it may just have one or two strands holding on connectors.

 

[Premie-farmer]

Doesn't sound shorted to me.....if it were, it would stay zero all the time as you turn over with starter. 3v for the high sounds a bit low. Unless you have a weak battery, you probably have some dirty connections in order to see half the battery voltage lost. You shouldn't see more than 2 or 3 tenths of a volt drop/loss on the connections & cable due to starter current and a battery drop to approx. 4.5 under starter load.

*****

But more importantly, do you have a spark? Have you opened up the gap on a plug & grounded the body of the plug to the engine & cranked while observing for a spark?

Battery is brand new and fresh off the charger after overnight charging. Haven't check the spark since it won't start figured the trouble is in the ignition especially since power is to the Batt side of coil. The 3V on the other side of the coil is a concern. I haven't disconnected the wire from the dist and checked voltage out of the coil yet before it goes into the dist. The terminal on the dist is old and rusty it's probably the original terminal. I suspect this as inside instead of a copper strip someone has put a very short wire with two terminals on it. Makes it real difficult to change the points as this wire is about 1/4 or less long. The terminal insulation practically touch each other.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

"The terminal on the dist is old and rusty it's probably the original terminal. I suspect this as inside instead of a copper strip someone has put a very short wire with two terminals on it."

And I said:

"Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts & often hard to find because it is usually an intermittent short"

You must have missed that response.
50 Tips

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 09:07:39 02/10/09) Doesn't sound shorted to me.....if it were, it would stay zero all the time as you turn over with starter. 3v for the high sounds a bit low. Unless you have a weak battery, you probably have some dirty connections in order to see half the battery voltage lost. You shouldn't see more than 2 or 3 tenths of a volt drop/loss on the connections & cable due to starter current and a battery drop to approx. 4.5 under starter load.

*****

But more importantly, do you have a spark? Have you opened up the gap on a plug & grounded the body of the plug to the engine & cranked while observing for a spark?

Battery is brand new and fresh off the charger after overnight charging. Haven't check the spark since it won't start figured the trouble is in the ignition especially since power is to the Batt side of coil. The 3V on the other side of the coil is a concern. I haven't disconnected the wire from the dist and checked voltage out of the coil yet before it goes into the dist. The terminal on the dist is old and rusty it's probably the original terminal. I suspect this as inside instead of a copper strip someone has put a very short wire with two terminals on it. Makes it real difficult to change the points as this wire is about 1/4 or less long. The terminal insulation practically touch each other.

Looks to me like you measured 6v to input coil terminal with key on, NOT cranking and are concerned about measuring 3v on distributor side of coil (points open) WHEN cranking. Measure BOTH under same conditions. Both with key on NOT cranking & points open.
Both with key on and while cranking (points open voltage level or high).
As I said earlier, battery is pulled down considerably by 100s of amps starter current.
As for the points to distributor terminal connection, this has worked for decades for me:

 

[Premie-farmer]

OK, JMOR I'll check the voltage as you suggest tonight and post my readings. I was thinking of doing a direct wire like in your pic if it came to it to get it started.
Thanks again for the help

 

[Anonymous-0]

You keep dancing around the 3 volt reading on the distributor side of the coil with the points open.This should read full battery voltage.The coils primary resistance is low so you wont see any voltage drop.Disconnect the distributor lead from the coil,if you still get 3 volts the coil is sick.Condenser could have a short in it,rare but it does happen.