wd needs more power

[larrystg2]

My son"s tractor needs a little more power. It is a WD with an E motor in it now, TSX 464 carb, 1600rpm governor and the compression check at 130 psi on all cylinders. This winter I want to change to 13.6x38s and we need suggestions to get more power. Does anyone have suggestions?

 

[Anonymous-0]

give me a call 423 472 7071

 

[james rumph]

I'm not a all knowing but 130 psi is low for a pulling motor.

Sounds like some domed pistons and head cutting are in order.
I ran a motor last year with just the head cut and it brought it up around 150 psi.

This year we put pistons in it and it is now 240 psi and what a differance in lugging power.


Buy road worn tires not new , the tall lugs and soft tire will kill the tractor.

 

[Anonymous-0]

head cutting dont do anything on a flat head but make the head true and flat. dome pistons aint the answere a niether.

 

[PullingWC]

I run a 1939 wc with a E motor all it has is the 4 1/8 pistons in it very strong . Horsepower is not yhe only thing knowing how to read a track is the trick. I run 3500 to 4500 super farm and mod and I'm in the top 3 all the time...

 

[Anonymous-0]

kendak feal free to give advice

 

[james rumph]

GREAT "ENGLISH" cutting a flat head does help, i hot rodded a 55 cub.

I cut .060 off the surface of the head bringing the cylinder presure up 40 psi .

Other then cutting the head i port matched the motor and it runs very well.


Flat head Fords had a High compression head offered that was the same as the standard head other then deck height.

I know this for fact because my father did the foundry patterns and core boxes to reproduce these heads.

They can be bought threw Steiner tractor parts.

Pistons also help as long as you "cc" the combustion chamber to help figure the amount of dome to be used.

Valve lift must be taken in account so that the valves don't hit the pistons.

You will find that the factory cams tend to be retarded timing wise. The piston is already on it's way back down when they start to open.

Clay testing must happen or alot of math to figure how far the valve really opens in relation to the piston.

Do one thing at a time to see the results or you won't know what worked or didn't.

 

[Anonymous-0]

a flat head ford is still not a allis if i remember right the junkie fords valves were in the block and not in the head like the allis so when you cut alot off the allis then what do you do to get the valve train geometry back correct you just missed up.

 

[james rumph]

The way you worded it i was lead to believe that had a flat head in it ..

When you cut "X" amount off a cylinder head you have to keep in mind valve train adjustment in the rockers .

Lets use .125 [1/8"] as a common number. On a I.H head ware the vale train is on a shaft system with pedistals this is a easy fix.

Example:


Head cut .125 and now you can't adjust the rockers enough to close the valves.

We cut 4 pieces of steel the same shape as the pedistals .125 thick and put them under the pedistals and bolt them all down.

You now have your adjustments back just like factory and yet have the added power of the cut head.
Grant you there not all this easy so cutting .0625 [1/16] is generaly safe because you wont loose the adjustment of the rockers.


You could always cut the head just enough to get it flat and run the thinnest head gasket you can find. I'll bet you will be amazed at the amount it will take to get it flat.

That flat head i did for the cub took.040 .

I cut a head for a "A" and it took .035 to bring it in.

Some times they take very little.

I'm a drag racer threw and threw and the cylinder heads is ware we spend the money to make power.
I pull with a 52 Super M that runs a 450 gas head. The head has been ported and spent more time on the flow bench then i want to admit.

Make sure you put a good valve job on that head and that the guides are good.

I have a dyno so were able to see the results of the cylinder head work.

 

[Anonymous-0]

do u have rc gears in that wc?

 

[kendak]

don't care how long you've raced cutting a already flat Allis head does nothing to raise comp....all it does is make you seat the valves deeper...domed pistons won't work because of flame travel you need a dished piston with a 80cc chamber 4.125 bore & 4.5 stroke get 220 psi & 12:1 CR...outside edge of piston is .260 below the deck...240 ci.WD-45 with 80 hp....Kent

 

[kendak]

Mitch ;the "flat " head ford had a comb. chamber in the head ...ran one in a 49 Merc. back in the late 50's with 3 [2] bbl. carters...ate them Chevy's for lunch...thats way he got more comp. when he shaved head...don't let him get your pressure up sounds like some other ones we know that don't evan own a tractor or wrench...Kent

 

[Anonymous-0]

Thanks Ken i hadnt hit the rev limiter yet .Grandad use to drag race them flat heads he always said an idiot could make one run but stopping them old fords was where it took some brains. Dad dragged 67 ss chevelle me im a 67 camaro fan i like the rpms of them 100 over 427. just like i like the rpms of them allis s.

 

[AW Puller]

Just curious if you had any idea what you were doing to the rocker arm geometry when you shim the rocker stands up to compensate for excessive milling of a cylinder head?? Shims as an easy fix??? All shiming the rocker stands does is move the problem to the valve side of the rocker from the pushrod side.

Without getting complicated and describing stuff 99.9% of the people on here dont understand; when you shim the rocker stands up, you can alter the amount of gross valve movement. This is due to the now altered rocker arm to valve stem geometry.

 

[james rumph]

Adding to the bottom of the pedistal what was machined off the deck surface of the head puts the valve adjustment back .

It's a controled datum point . The valves don't open any further, the push rod is the same length . The only differance is a smaller combustion chamber.

I set it up with a dial indicator to check this. The rocker ratio is not altered at all.

So if i'm missing something here please explain.



Someone questioned domed pistons and flame travel, i agree. I put a complete MSD system on to help with that problem .

And yes i own several tractors as well as a tube chassie car .

I build automation tooling for a living so i do have a clue as to what i'm doing.

My current project is helping a friend build a rat rod with a caddliac 429 motor. This is a very sought after motor for these but it is a tank of a motor, should run well.

The point of these forums is to help each other and come up with new ideas. I love debating with people on topics .

The word of the night is "PARADIGM" it is a good one to look up and understand.

 

[AW Puller]

I will do my best to explain and not make it totally confusing......

When you shim the rocker arm stand up, you are changing the relationship between the shaft centerpoint (pivot point of rocker) and the point where the rocker arm is tangent to the valve stem. As the rocker arm moves thru its motion and points more and more down hill as the valve opens farther, vertical movement of the tangent point b/t the rocker and valve stem becomes less and less for each degree of rocker arm movement.

In addition to this, with the stands shimed and the rocker arm points more downhill to contact the valve, the adjusting screw is also in a different position than stock. Depending on how the rocker arm is made (IE: adj. screw angle) and simply how far in/out the adj. screw is adjusted changes the distance b/t the contact point of the adj. screw/pushrod to the shaft centerpoint. This can change gross valve lift because A) Due to the rocker being rotated more, the tangent point of the adj. screw/pushrod is farther from the centerpoint of the rocker arm shaft. B) The farther above the shaft centerpoint the adj. screw/pushrod tangent point gets, it takes more pushrod rise for each degree of rocker arm rotation.

I know that was about as clear as mud. If you build tooling, I"m guessing you have access to CAD software. Take some time and draw a basic rocker arm, and then play with moving the pivot point up and down to see how it effects things.

 

[larrystg2]

Thanks for all the comments. I think I will go with the 4.125 WD pistons and upgrade my carb and valvetrain and see what that does for me. I beleive I need to run 13.6 x 38s. Does anyone have a set for sell?

 

[Anonymous-0]

My answere for James in my opinion of what he posted is no not a clue .

 

[james rumph]

I fully understand what you said now i need to get my mind around it all. I think what you typed was well done and makes sence.

I shim them so that the adjustment at the end of the rocker is in the middle. I wish i remembered the math i came up with when the dial gauge was used to see travel.

So in short what your saying is a nice set of adjustable push rods would be better then the shims. By doing it in the push rod the tangent stays the same.

Now we need some one to make adjustable push rods!


I did check for spring bind when i ran threw my check procedure.

I built my motor for stock pulling [alot of gray area].

It is a 52 Super M , it has a stock crank stock rods and a stock cam.

The 8060 casting head was trash so i bought a 450 gas head which recieved a ton of work.

The pistons are stock 281 cubic inch [450] that i had 4 cad cut domes done for.

I cut the pistons nice and flat and welded the piston domes on. I have a digital scale so everything was balanced to the gram ,they came out very nice.

I tried to get a set of pistons made [billet] but couldn't find anyone to do it . All the companys wanted me to use a flat top piston with a stroker crank , i wanted to stay stock stroke at this point. The combination of flat top and 1" stroke gave the cylinder presure i wanted.


On the weekends i run a tractor dyno service that we have alot of fun with. I went as far as having it calibrated and certified so the results would be correct. I have gotten my mostly stock motor "other then pistons" to almost 80 hp at 1800 rpm.

Thats not bad from 44 hp stock.Anything over 1850 rpm and the cam shaft runs out of lobe and the torque #s fall fast.

I am going to sit down and pounder what what you just said , there could be some improvement there.


Great post thank you.

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 20:03:40 08/06/08)
Adding to the bottom of the pedistal what was machined off the deck surface of the head puts the valve adjustment back .

It's a controled datum point . The valves don't open any further, the push rod is the same length . The only differance is a smaller combustion chamber.

I set it up with a dial indicator to check this. The rocker ratio is not altered at all.

So if i'm missing something here please explain.

AW you just educated a farmall man. now im getting scared .a kid a couple of weeks ago said he was going to let a farmall man build his motor and come whoop up on me and barny . I laughed at it but they are getting smarter . last week i believe a cub could have out pulled me but im fixing that this week maybe

Someone questioned domed pistons and flame travel, i agree. I put a complete MSD system on to help with that problem .

And yes i own several tractors as well as a tube chassie car .

I build automation tooling for a living so i do have a clue as to what i'm doing.

My current project is helping a friend build a rat rod with a caddliac 429 motor. This is a very sought after motor for these but it is a tank of a motor, should run well.

The point of these forums is to help each other and come up with new ideas. I love debating with people on topics .

The word of the night is "PARADIGM" it is a good one to look up and understand.

 

[james rumph]

YOU NEED TO WORK ON YOUR ENGLISH SKILLS !

YOU DIDN'T LOOK UP THAT WORD DID YOU.

MUST BE TO MUCH FOR YOU.

 

[Anonymous-0]

(quoted from post at 12:10:53 08/07/08)

YOU NEED TO WORK ON YOUR ENGLISH SKILLS !

YOU DIDN'T LOOK UP THAT WORD DID YOU.

MUST BE TO MUCH FOR YOU.

James I ant much on them there greek words of origion .Theres alot gooder words to use than greek words. You know I married a colledge professer and she gets a little angry with my choice of words but she still thinks im the best's feller in the world .