Welding cast

[trucker40]

Now I havent been to welding school except FFA in High School.I have welded ever since then and I did it for a living a few times.I see this argument all the time any more that you have to go to school to talk about welding castings on tractors.
I looked up all I could find about it and it wasnt much.There however was a lot of stuff I knew wasnt true.Also some even saying that there was no cast steel,which I know better.Kept looking and found a website that described it.I also have read that same info years ago on this website or at least on the Internet.
Where I looked it up it said this,most castings used in housings are made of cast steel because it has some flex.Cast Iron is too brittle.
Also preheat or not cast steel can be readily welded with rods like plate steel.
I know from experience if its something critical you may want to pre heat and not weld over an inch at a time.
Now until you can prove to me that your school has some better information than that about welding on a tractor,I will continue to weld them with 6011 and 7018 and MIG.They arent iron,they are steel.If you do happen to run into some cast iron you cant weld it very well with a rod.Probably cant even weld it unless you use a piece of the same metal and a torch and fusion weld it.
I will tell everybody I know and anybody that asks to weld it this way with 6011 or 7018,both,MIG,braze.Maybe your school should tell you that tractors are made of cast steel.I dont know what Chinese junk is made of,but its probably steel too.
Even if they say cast iron,if they are talking about a tractor it is most likely cast steel.
If you dont believe me ask your teacher,and dont let him baffle you with bullcrap,have him prove it to you by looking it up.

 

[Ken(Ark)]

The difference between cast iron and cast steel is the amounts of other additives to the iron , such as carbon, manganese, phosphorus, silicon, and sulphur.

By the 40"s a lot R&D had been done on what combo worked best , of course this was to late for the titanic .

I have a few N"s that had some bad pitting on the #4 exhaust on the block . While I had the manifolds off I ran a few beads with the flux core wire welder . Used a 4 1/2 angle grinder to smooth it up . I think a caveman could have done it .

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 22:09:56 01/14/10) Now I havent been to welding school except FFA in High School.I have welded ever since then and I did it for a living a few times.I see this argument all the time any more that you have to go to school to talk about welding castings on tractors.
I looked up all I could find about it and it wasnt much.There however was a lot of stuff I knew wasnt true.Also some even saying that there was no cast steel,which I know better.Kept looking and found a website that described it.I also have read that same info years ago on this website or at least on the Internet.
Where I looked it up it said this,most castings used in housings are made of cast steel because it has some flex.Cast Iron is too brittle.
Also preheat or not cast steel can be readily welded with rods like plate steel.
I know from experience if its something critical you may want to pre heat and not weld over an inch at a time.
Now until you can prove to me that your school has some better information than that about welding on a tractor,I will continue to weld them with 6011 and 7018 and MIG.They arent iron,they are steel.If you do happen to run into some cast iron you cant weld it very well with a rod.Probably cant even weld it unless you use a piece of the same metal and a torch and fusion weld it.
I will tell everybody I know and anybody that asks to weld it this way with 6011 or 7018,both,MIG,braze.Maybe your school should tell you that tractors are made of cast steel.I dont know what Chinese junk is made of,but its probably steel too.
Even if they say cast iron,if they are talking about a tractor it is most likely cast steel.
If you dont believe me ask your teacher,and dont let him baffle you with bullcrap,have him prove it to you by looking it up.

Calm down my friend. What part are we welding? The engine block is most definitly cast iron - drill a hole in it and look at the "chips" the drill makes.

TOH

TOH

 

[Sycamorecreek]

I agree that most of the parts on the N are cast steel, or mild steel, with the exception of the intrals of the trans and diff. Some of that steel is tool steel and very hard. But can be welded if needed.

The test I always used to tell if its cast iron/cast steel/ or mild steel is with a grinder. If the sparks off the grinder are very dim or none then it is cast iron. Cast steel will produce a brighter spark, but not alot of spark. Mild steel will produce alot of sparks and they will be bright.

Cast iron can be welded but must be pre-heated, and cooled very slowly.

Cast steel can be welded with Mig/6011/7018 and should be preheated and cooled slowly, de[ending on the ambiant temprature.

I used to have to repair a kelly bar on a drill rig. The bar was 6 inches in diameter, and was of a tool steel. The technique I used was to per-heat and weld with 7018 all the way from a 1/4 inch lip to the final pass. I never had one break again after I welded it. These machines could produce alot of tourqe. Enough to break the original bar.

 

[lha]

I too have done what"can't be done",welding cast.Iron or steel,cast has different properties.Now I'm no great welder,as it takes doing everyday or so to keep in practice to be what you call a great welder,or mechanic,doctor,etc.I welded an axle trumpet,off the Case tractor about 20 years ago and as of about 7-8yrs ago it's still doing cleanup&light leveling for a comercial contractor I worked for back then.I ground a groove on both sides then welded a bead about 1" on either ends 2 inside,2 outside until I had 4 beads on about 7" crack meanwhile ,2 guys had built abonfire of mesquite,let it turn to coals[boss thought we were making Barbacoa],then put the axle in coals,raking some over,and covered with tin.On monday morning,removed,ground& back to shop to be put back together.---lha

 

[trucker40]

Sorry.There is nothing on a Ford tractor thats cast iron.Its all cast steel.I dont think there is any engine block made of cast iron,there are different recipes but they are all some cast steel mixture.Cast iron is too brittle.People say iron but its steel.

 

[Dunk]

Well, I don't know about all of that....

I have tried to tack weld to some Ford automotive heads, and that was less than useless. The welds cracked loose as they cooled.

Definately something different than what my upper lift arm was.

Before I got my 8N, in it's unknown prievous history, about half of the block skirt that attaches to the tranny was broken off, right thru the starter hole. Someone did an excellent job of welding that back somehow.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 09:05:24 01/15/10) Sorry.There is nothing on a Ford tractor thats cast iron.Its all cast steel.I dont think there is any engine block made of cast iron,there are different recipes but they are all some cast steel mixture.Cast iron is too brittle.People say iron but its steel.

So now you are a metallurgist? "Steel" is an alloy comprised principally (90%+) of [b:354cab8282]Iron[/b:354cab8282] (Fe) and small amounts of Carbon (C) plus assorted other alloying materials. "Mild steel" typically has a carbon content of less than .30 % although there are medium and high carbon steels with contents up to the 2% range. Cast iron alloys on the other hand have a carbon content in the range of 2.1-4% and a significant amount of Silicon (Si). The high carbon content gives it better casting properties than low carbon steels - hence the name. Cast iron, specifically gray iron, has been the principle material used for casting engine blocks for years although less so in recent years. And yes - it is brittle and fractures easily - there are numerous real life examples of that in the experiences of folks on this forum. Gray cast iron has also been the material of choice for machine tool castings, tables, ways etc. It has other properties (aside from casting) that make it superior to low carbon steels for these applications - in particular excellent wear resistance, resistance to compression, and stability after machining. Believe it or not but many "steels" like to warp after they are machined making it very difficult to maintain precision tolereances.

Gray iron is "readily fusion welded" - e.g. it retains its basic properties when melted and fused. However the higher carbon content makes welding gray iron a more demanding process than lower carbon steels. Contrast that to white iron which is "not fusion weldable" - it's mechanical properties change drastically when melted and fused.

But that's just book learning confirmed by a little real life experimentation.

TOH - a half-a$$ed rod burner/machinist wannabe who believes in the virtues of reading

 

[trucker40]

Well where I read about it they said almost all castings are made of cast steel.Maybe its in the way they look at it but grey iron is not pure iron nor is about any iron.If you cant weld it with a rod its iron.If you can weld it,its not iron.I guess instead of calling it something else they said steel since its not pure iron.If it throws sparks when you hit it with a grinder you can weld it.If you can knock and edge up on with a chisel you can weld it.Call it iron if you want to,I dont care what you call it,but it can be welded therefore its not iron.Now drag every dam-ed book you can find out and write until kingdom come but you cannot weld iron with a rod good enough to get it off the welding table.You can weld every part of a Ford tractor thats metal,so I would say its not iron.I would say there is a real good chance its steel.Remember grey iron isnt iron its an alloy.Steel is an alloy.I dont need to be a metalurgist,I just need to know if I can weld it or not.

 

[trucker40]

I will say I saw a block welded with 7018 on a Ford tractor.I have never seen a head welded which doesnt mean it cant be done.
I dont know everything about welding.Also I know there are better ways of welding cast than with a rod.I wouldnt hesitate to try to weld a tractor with a rod.Im sure there would be better and worse results.I welded on a head on a Cummins diesel one time and it was hard to do,cracked a couple of times,but I did it with a Mig.Actually on an engine it probably needs to be heated up and welded with a process just for that.Ive seen pictures and it looks good.I have actually seen a block put together with screws one into the other,it failed but it looked good when they got done with it.
Also some days I cant weld very good it seems like,other days I amaze myself.An engine block is somehow different Im sure,but I wont say its not possible to weld it with a rod,Ive seen them welded with a MIG and brazed.I dont know what they did or how hard it was to do,I just know it was done.The guy that welded the block with 7018 had to grind on it and redo it a couple times and he covered it with sand when he was done.It still looked bad when he was done but it held for a couple of years.
Engine blocks are different,but they still arent iron.Iron has its own way of being welded and you cant do it with a rod.An engine block is difficult to weld,but it is possible.The mixture must have more iron in it,but its still an alloy.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 11:23:33 01/15/10) Well where I read about it they said almost all castings are made of cast steel.Maybe its in the way they look at it but grey iron is not pure iron nor is about any iron.If you cant weld it with a rod its iron.If you can weld it,its not iron.I guess instead of calling it something else they said steel since its not pure iron.If it throws sparks when you hit it with a grinder you can weld it.If you can knock and edge up on with a chisel you can weld it.Call it iron if you want to,I dont care what you call it,but it can be welded therefore its not iron.Now drag every dam-ed book you can find out and write until kingdom come but you cannot weld iron with a rod good enough to get it off the welding table.You can weld every part of a Ford tractor thats metal,so I would say its not iron.I would say there is a real good chance its steel.Remember grey iron isnt iron its an alloy.Steel is an alloy.I dont need to be a metalurgist,I just need to know if I can weld it or not.

Are you just naturally argumentative or do you simply not get it? And what's your problem with formal education?

Iron is a chemical element (Fe) - a pure naturally occuring substance just like sulfer (S), carbon (C), oxygen (O),... that cannot be broken down into other substances by chemical process. Last time I looked there were exactly 117 known elements in the world.

Steel is not an element - it is a metallic alloy (chemical compound) of Iron and Carbon (both elements). [u:82efd414a1][b:82efd414a1]Cast iron[/b:82efd414a1][/u:82efd414a1] is the [b:82efd414a1]name[/b:82efd414a1] used by engineers, machinists, chemists, metallurgists, welders, etc for a "very high carbon content" alloy of iron and carbon. It is 95% iron and 2-4% carbon and as such it is in the "steel" family of iron alloys. It has very specific properties that differ from the properties of other lower carbon iron alloys (steels). Cast iron = gray/white/ductile/malleable/nodular iron = steel.

You won't find a hunk of pure Iron laying around anywhere outside a reagent bottle in a chemistry lab - it will oxidize (rust) and turn into Iron Oxide - a chemical compound - in a heartbeat. I would be amazed if you have ever layed a rod to pure iron or ever had pure iron on a welding table or anywhere in your presence outside of a chemistry class.

Weldabilty of iron-carbon alloys (steels) is a function of the carbon content - the higher the carbon content (lower the iron content) the harder they are to weld. Very high carbon steels (e.g. grey cast iron) are particularly hard to weld - some (e.g white cast iron) won't weld at all because they change form when melted. Engine blocks are typically grey cast iron (steel) and harder to weld than say the lift arms which are likely a lower carbon cast steel. Welding very high carbon steels (especially cast irons) requires more sophisticated techniques (pre-heat/controlled cooling/special rods/etc.) than those used for lower carbon steels.

But you already knew that.

TOH

 

[JohnC IND]

I have a friend that has a 641 Ford melting into the ground. Years ago it threw a rod out through the side of the block when the governor failed when filling a bin with a pto-driven auger. The block was 'patched' in the mid '60s as the broken pieces were never found. Not sure if it was welded or brazed. It's still holding, although the machine hasn't been run in ten years or so. I might see the machine this weekend, I'll try to get a photo of the patch. I'm trying to weasel him out of the tractor.

 

[Sycamorecreek]

Well I will say this. A piece that is mostly Iron can be welded with a rod. FYI there are special rods to weld Aluminum with also.
A company named "Cronatron" makes all kinds of special rods to weld most anything. They also make a rod that will built up in a broken off bolt hole that will only adhere to the bolt. Allowing you to build up the weld and then weld a nut atop of it to remove the bolt.

In some applications I would run 7018 followed by a hard nickel rod swapping them out to build up a wear resistant surface that would'nt crack and break off. Most hard face rod beads are very hard and will chip and break off the edges.

As for the Education part of this I would only say this: You stated that where you were reading about welding. Well friend reading is a big part of an education.

 

[dahermit]

Have welded cast iron many times Using both Oxy-Acetylene and arc welding rods made for that purpose. Gas welding of cast iron requires a very large tip and pre-heating the entire part to read heat. Also, you must stir the weld while liquid with the cast iron rod to break-up the formation of oxides and the large amount of carbon that floats to the top (consistency of stirring a septic tank). Those who say that cast iron is impossible to weld, take a look at this site:

http://muggyweld.com/castiron.html

 

[trucker40]

I read every bit of that too yesterday.Did it say how you could weld it?Thats the whole thing Im talking about.There are way more types of metals and believe it or not Ive read several books about welding.A ford tractor can be welded with fair to excellent results with welding rods.I prefer using MIG and wouldnt hesitate to weld it with that if I had a Ford tractor I wanted to weld.I dont need to know about all the different mixtures,I just want to know if it can be welded with a rod.What Ive read says yes and my experience though limited tells me it can also.

I dont have anything against education at all.I said I learned how to weld in FFA class.I do however have a big problem with somebody who goes to school and then tells me I cant do something.Its doubtful he was told in school that,but he wouldnt even say how he would weld it.Probably would stand there and scratch his head.If you say something cant be welded,with a rod,you need to prove that since I know better from experience.Then if you go off into an explanation about welding something that is cast steel,by the same process as cast iron,I know better instantly.Cast steel is not that much different than plate steel so it can be welded with a rod.

Now not all of this was brought up not even on this board but in the months from last summer until now others have got on here and tried to say this stuff.Now I have welded miles of beads but probably less than 5 feet of beads on cast.I know Im not an expert on cast.However I know you can weld it with a rod and its steel not iron.Just saying.I am taking offense at false information.Also its even more offensive because if you look a little you can even find it on the internet.Which is where I got a lot of what I know about it from.You also can find false information on the internet too.So on a website where somebody might need to weld a tractor one day,you ought to know if you can weld it with rods,MIG and braze plus other ways which are more expensive.

Having worked in a shop for a long time I have seen lots of"welding".Ive spent a lot of time grinding brass off that somebody blobbed on something so I could fix it with a MIG.I have not needed to weld a block,but I would if I had to.If you know how to weld then you should be able to fix your tractor.If its broke what do you have to loose?Some times things wont work no matter how hard you try and some things seem easy after you do it once.

 

[Dave H (MI)]

I know you guys are getting past irritated with each other, but as a guy trying hard to get into some welding classes at the local community college I have to say your posts are extremely interesting. Learned a lot just reading them.

 

[dahermit]

"The difference between cast iron and cast steel is the amounts of other additives to the iron , such as carbon, manganese, phosphorus, silicon, and sulphur." No, by definition, the difference between steel and cast iron is only the amount of carbon. By definition (in the text books, and accepted references AISI, AWS, etc.)Plain Carbon Steel contains no other significant alloying elements. In other words, other elements may be present but they are not enough to alter properties. Steel = elemental iron and carbon up to 2%. Cast Iron = elemental iron and carbon between 2% and 6%. Cast Iron has so much carbon that the iron cannot maintain it in solution and the carbon exists in microscopic structures of cementite. There microscopic structures are responsible for the brittleness of cast iron...bend it, it breaks (without elongation like steel).
Questions: If the engine block of a Ford N series tractor is not cast iron, why would they have a history of breaks (steel would distort and bend before breaking)?
If the engine block of a Ford N series tractor is not cast iron, why is there so much discussion about how hard it is to weld (if it was a steel casting, there would be no problem welding the block with common rods, E6013, E7014, etc. why would you have to resort to brazing or rods formulated to weld cast iron)?

 

[Dunk]

I bet yall aint never welded up a cats arse.

We use to have this salve that would cure up a cat's arse over night.

That was some good stuff.

 

[trucker40]

I dont think any tractors are particularly prone to cracking.When they first were made they didnt have antifreeze like now.They had something like windshield washer fluid and if they didnt drain the water they would crack.You can weld it with a rod.I could write for hours about what all you can do to weld it with a rod,but the simplest thing is to preheat,short beads,clean,clean,grind and weld again.

The biggest problem is that people say its cast iron.Its actually cast steel.Yeah you could weld it with a torch.You probably would not find 5 people in 100 miles that could weld with a torch good enough to stick 2 pieces of metal together.You probably could find thousands of people with an Arc welder.

Another thing that people say a lot is that you need to use nickel rod.No you dont.They think if its cast iron(as people say)they have to use nickel rod to weld it.I have ground nickel off of stuff lots of times so I could weld it with a MIG or 7018.Nickel rod will weld it but its too brittle.I know there are lots of different rods though.

All that stupidity doesnt need to be waded through every time somebody wants to weld on a tractor.You wont find a lot of people who can use a torch,you wont find anybody that went to a welding school.You will find lots of people with a tractor and an Arc welder.Thats the way Farmers fixed them and thats the way anybody can fix them.

Having grown up on a farm,you cant do any kind of farming without a welder.When most welding shops are closed like after 5 and on Sunday and every holiday is when most farm work is done.You can fix it or let it set until somebody decides to show up with a portable rig,or you can get it to the welder and fix it.You dont need to go to school to do it either.You do however need to watch somebody or take a course to get you in a good enough knowledge to stick metal together.Going to some college while fine is not necessary to weld your Ford or any other tractor.Try and remember that the next time you post about welding.

 

[trucker40]

Thats interesting.I knew about aluminum electrodes but not about the other stuff.The Aluminum rods I used did not work near as well as a spool gun.They might get you by until you can get to a TIG or spool gun.That was long ago maybe they are better now.
There is a lot of information you could read and still not learn anything.I looked at some like that on the internet.What if you didnt know anything and read that there was no such thing as cast steel?Also that you cant weld cast iron?If you know a little bit you can disregard the bull and learn.If you were just starting out and believed all the crap you wouldnt get anywhere.

 

[dahermit]

Is agreds wit yu. Ejucation dn't nver dun me no gud. Speriance is whats counts. I's been breathen for over 60 yars and it done made me inta all mosta lung sturgion doktor. Kan I oper-ate on yous? No ones kneeds no book-larn'en nor fetchen up...we uns can larn from watchen uncle Fudd.
Offen tropic:
If'en a guy un a gal getts hitched in Mussouri an uh moves to Cantucky an gets ah divorc, is they-un still brother un sister?

 

[Joe T (CO)]

dunk,Is it similar to "Monkeys Butt"? Just saw some of that at the farm store 30 minutes ago :lol:

 

[dahermit]

Look pa! I dones gots it stuc togeter, I's ah welder!

 

[Welding man]

I have probably burnt more welding rod in the last 40 years than most of you have even seen, lots of days I have used 50 lbs of 7018. When I was working in a large coal fired power house I used $2000.00 worth of cast rod in one day. It is appearent that some people know what they are talking about and some don't. Nothing beats experience. What will work for one job won't for another and vica versa. Some arguments can't be won, so why waste your time. Everyone have a great day.

 

[dahermit]

(quoted from post at 15:27:13 01/17/10) I have probably burnt more welding rod in the last 40 years than most of you have even seen, lots of days I have used 50 lbs of 7018. When I was working in a large coal fired power house I used $2000.00 worth of cast rod in one day. It is appearent that some people know what they are talking about and some don't. Nothing beats experience. What will work for one job won't for another and vica versa. Some arguments can't be won, so why waste your time. Everyone have a gre.

If I may make a suggestion: Your post is somewhat abiguous. It is not clear what you ment to say. For instance, "...I used $2000 woth of cast rod in one day..." Did you mean that you used Oxy-Actelene cast iron filler rod, or an arc welding rod manufactured for welding cast iron? Also, you stated, "...Some arguments can't be won, so why waste your time...". Do you mean the argument that cast iron can/cannot be welded, or the argument that the engine blocks of N model Ford tractors are cast steel not cast iron? Please be more specific.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 12:32:11 01/17/10)

(quoted from post at 15:27:13 01/17/10) I have probably burnt more welding rod in the last 40 years than most of you have even seen, lots of days I have used 50 lbs of 7018. When I was working in a large coal fired power house I used $2000.00 worth of cast rod in one day. It is appearent that some people know what they are talking about and some don't. Nothing beats experience. What will work for one job won't for another and vica versa. Some arguments can't be won, so why waste your time. Everyone have a gre.

If I may make a suggestion: Your post is somewhat abiguous. It is not clear what you ment to say. For instance, "...I used $2000 woth of cast rod in one day..." Did you mean that you used Oxy-Actelene cast iron filler rod, or an arc welding rod manufactured for welding cast iron? Also, you stated, "...Some arguments can't be won, so why waste your time...". Do you mean the argument that cast iron can/cannot be welded, or the argument that the engine blocks of N model Ford tractors are cast steel not cast iron? Please be more specific.

I tthink the gentleman was carefully choosing his words and if welding ceases to be a viable way of making a living he has great potential in the diplomatic corp.

TOH

 

[Welding man]

As for the cast iron rod it was stick electrode-Inconel brand and that was back when a dollar was still a dollar. As for the argument about the N block being cast iron or cast steel. They are cast iron I have welded dozens of engine blocks of all types not only Fords. I don't personally agree that this is the best way to repair a block but when you are in business, you do what the customer wants if you can. As for the argument question I only meant that some people only like to argue and it doesn't really make any difference what the subject matter is, and I will let it go at that.

 

[Anonymous-0]

knock it off clown.