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Welding rods decoded

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NCWayne

Well-known Member
I just read the thread below by "bc" about his new welder. Seeing the replies it's obvious that there are alot of other guys on this board that have welded for a living too and know pretty much what they are talking about. While I've been doing welding and fab work for close to 25 years it's not my main line of work so I know many of ya'll have have probably done more welding than I have. As such I usually stay out of the heated discussions about what machine, rod, etc, etc is better. Heck two identical power supplies will weld different than each other, need higher or lower amps for the same size rod, etc, etc.. then throw in the skill (or lack thereof) of the welder himself and it's a whole 'nuther ballgame. Granted when it comes to the rods there are specific rods for some things but for general repairs like most guys on here do there are only a few common rods really suitable for use anyway, and most will work in the majority of cases, even if you just have to clean the rust and paint off first instead of trying to weld through it or just shift the part to the horizontal position if possible....... In other words in my experience there is rarely any one absolute when it comes to any of that so why argue about it??

That said I'm always seeing posts stating that a 7018 rod is a "DC rod" and that there are "new" 7018 rods that are good for use with AC. My question is what is so new or special about these 7018 AC rods? I mean just looked at the Lincoln site in the below link and the 7018 is listed for AC and DC. I even looked back at Dad's old welding book from the 70's where the 7018's are shown as being suitable for use with AC or DC either one. So, if a 'plain old' 7018 was suitable for use on AC 40 years ago why do I continually see posts saying pretty much they aren't usable with AC now or you need a special one to run with AC? Personally I've run 7018's on AC when a buzz box was all I had and never had a problem as long as you set the amperage right. Granted they won't weld as smooth on AC as they do on DC but they still do a pretty good job if you take your time and pay attention to what your doing.
That said for any of ya'll that aren't versed in the classification of your stick electrodes here is a link to Lincoln Electrics site where it lays it all out for you. It's not as complete as some I've seen, like the one in Dad's old book where it also gives the characteristics of the weld puddle such as it being fast freezing, etc but it does give the basics and the characteristics of some of the most common rods.
Welding rod info
 
Yes, 7018 were always an AC or DC+ rod. 7018AC was develeped to make them easier to use with an AC only machine(buzz box). There used to be industrial AC machines that were much easier to weld with than the consumer buzz boxes. Since all there is now is the low end AC buzz boxes, there is more need for an easier to use 7018 for maximum strength welds. I believe Hobart came out with the first 7018AC rods in the early 80's. They even struck an arc without having to chip the slag off the rod between welds. I loved that feature about them but when they were used on a DC machine, they had visible porosity in the weld. Since then most rod makers have come out with a 7018AC rod. Some AC welders work better with 7018 than others. A Lincoln AC 225 is superior with 7018 to a Miller Thunderbolt for example and will burn standard 7018 although the AC version are easier. I don't think the AC versions have quite as much strength as the standard 7018 though. Dave
 
For the 1st 45 or so years that I welded, we only had a Lincoln 225 AC welder. Never knew you couldn't burn 7018 rods with it 'til I joined this forum; we only kept 4 rods on hand.......6011, 6013, 7018 (mostly in 5/32, but some 1/8) and nickel. Also kept brass and what was locally known as copper-coated rods for acetylene welding. There's probably as much specialized knowledge on these forums as anywhere in the world; there's also as much BS........
 
The 7018 is a DC rod. There is an adapted '7018 AC' that will burn on an AC welder... but plain old 7018 doesn't burn very well at all on DC welders. I'd agree that it's not really a 'new' thing tho. been around as long as I can remember...

Rod
 
135 you said that you don't think that the AC versions have quite as much strength as the stanadard 7018. So my question is if you only have access to a AC buzz box how much stronger is 7018AC then 6011 or 6013? Thank You.
Bob
 
Thats actually wrong.7018 is difficult to strike an arc with an AC welder but after you know how its not a big deal.Yes it runs better on a DC welder as do all rods.You can run any rod on a DC welder that you can on a AC welder as long as you set the DC right.Some rods need reverse polarity on DC some dont.

AC will burn regular 7018 and Ive burned boxes and boxes of 7018 on an AC welder.I have burned a 50 pound box in one 8 hour shift over and over day after day.They were big rods,I dont remember what size,maybe 3/16ths,maybe bigger.
 
I dont see him answering you so Ill tell you what he is probably talking about.When you start welding with a rod,the first inch or so is where there are problems.If you are welding something critical you can use start strips ans run off strips.You tack a piece of metal to start your weld on before you get to the piece you are welding.Every pass you start and finish off of the piece you are welding.When done you cut the starter strip and end strip off.If you X-Ray that weld then you are less likely to have any porosity in the weld,as you probably would have in the first and last inch of every pass.While less likely to get the porosity with a DC welder,in the first inch it is likely you will get it with a DC welder too.The heating up of the metal has not really happened in the first inch yet and the cold part of the weld is where problems happen.
To answer your question about the strength,if you use start and stop strips its the same strength because its 70,000 lbs tensile strength.Thats why its a 7018 rod,the 70 means 70,000 pounds.6011 would be 60,000 pounds tensile strength.

While a DC welder does weld a lot smoother with all rods,an AC welder welds good enough.

There is a lot of stuff welded every day with 7018 on an AC welder.Regardless of what anybody says about it,and AC welder works just fine.There are some things that are worth talking about,like the start and stop strips,and some other stuff,but AC welders work,and they are used everywhere regularly,and they weld stuff thats very strong,as strong or stronger than the metal they are welding,or base metal.
 
Basically an AC welder is a big transformer.Not everybodys welder transformer is the same.Some have big copper wire wound around and Iron core and those are good,probably as good as they get.They also have a cooling fan.Even that same company will make another,cheaper welder sometimes by using the same box and then put an aluminum wound transformer in it.They work good too and also have a cooling fan,then you get off brand stuff that has smaller wire and plastic parts that melt in there,which may or may not have a cooling fan,and its kind of a crap shoot as to whether or not they will last very long.
As long as the thing would start up,and burn a rod,I havent seen a lot of difference in that regard.Some do burn rods better than others,especially the ones without cooling fans and short duty cycles and reset buttons dont work good for trying to get something done in a hurry.Plus I always had a better welder somewhere and usually use one of the little ones on a extension cord or something and would end up dragging it to the big welder to be welded right.
For the most part,lots of people have Lincolns and Forneys and Marquettes and Century welders.All of those are alright.The ones they used to sell that didnt have cooling fans are probably in a landfill somewhere now,or at least most of them.
Ive welded on a Lincoln,Forney,Marquette,Century and others that all seemed about the same as far as burning a rod is concerned.Every single one had differences where one might take 50 amps more than the other one to melt a rod.I dont know what thats all about,but I have noticed that the same brand is usually close to the same at least on the ones Ive seen.Also you may need to turn it up a little after using it an hour or 2.


There are probably lots of welders I havent used,thats for sure.But to melt metal they use a transformer and if its melting the rod good,I dont really see what else there is to it.The duty cycle gets annoying on a small welder,but if its all you have I guess you learn to deal with it.When its burning rods and as long as it keeps burning the rod,it should be alright.I have used a couple that would cut out right about the time you were getting it burned in good,but that was some problem that eventually ended them up in the landfill.Like a switch or some other thing that nobody could figure out.

You are always better sticking to something a lot of people have as there is a good chance you can get parts for it,and if something does go wrong a bunch of people will probably know what it is and get you lied out on fixing it.Like a Lincoln buzz box either 180 or 225.Marquette or Forney.Plus some others.These are everywhere,especially the Lincolns and you can probably get anything you need for them.
 
Let me say one thing. Most farmers and occasional welders need to use a rod and machine they are familiar with. It looks like there is only 10,000 pounds more tensice strength in the 70 series rod. If you cannot get good clean welds with a 7018 and can get a better or cleaner weld with your 6011 maybe you just need to use the 6011. I once operated a welding and fabrication shop and kept 7018 for repair but now I use 6011 for everything I do. If I need some high alloy items welded I take it to the old shop that I once owned and pay to have it welded with new dry 7018 or 8018 In the shop we had 11018 but nobody was good enough to use it. In summary a proper well with 6011 may be stronger than your poor 8018. How many of the "experts" here can do a clean weld with any rod??? Any certified boilermakers or pipefitters here?
 
There is a lot of truth in what you say there.A good 6011 weld will probably hold more than a poor 8018 weld.
Everybody that can, should look at the videos of welding with 7018 on YouTube or other places and practice until they can make a good bead.

Yes you can slap stuff together with 6011,and even if you cant weld very good it might hold a while.But there is still no excuse for not trying to get better.If you cant watch You Tube videos there are books you can read,or you might even see if they have a welding class somewhere or even have somebody show you how to weld with 7018.

Once you learn it,its kind of like riding a bicycle and you dont forget all of what you learned.Practice a lot.
 
We used some stuff from United Alloys called supertrode, my uncle and I called it "dummy rod", a novice could lay down a decent bead. We generally ran 6011 or 7018, but I've found that for a project that will eat several pounds of rod, getting the American-made AC7018 rod is worth the few extra bucks. Last summer I got a pound of Mexican and 5 of American-made AC7018 when the woman at Airgas told me to spend the extra money, the Mexican-made is mostly still sitting in the barn.
 
7018AC is still by far the strongest rod. The 7018AC rods still have to meet the minimum AWS/CSA requirements for tensile strength, ductility, low temperature impact strength etc. as the regular 7018 rods so for 95% of applications there will be no difference in strength. Standard 7018 usually have better low temperature impact strength than the 7018AC. They both however have to have at least 20 ft. pounds impact strength at -20F to be classified as 7018. A 7018-1 rod has even more low temperature impact strength than the standard 7018 and is often specified on more critical jobs like pressure vessels and piping. Dave
 
Might depend on the welder and the rod... I find significant differences between different brands of rods as to how well they burn on my machine... but one thing I did find is that standard 7018 Liquid Air rods burn very poorly on a Lincoln crackerbox. 7018 AC works OK. It wasn't just a matter of striking an arc. They'd just as easily give up in the middle of the puddle. Very sensitive to arc length...

Rod
 
Boilermaker is a fancy union term for a pressure vessel/piping welder. Pressure tickets have to be renewed every 2 years up here, even if you do it 24/7. I have a few pressure tickets but would need to renew them if I wanted to go back to welding vessels and piping. In all the welding shops I ever worked in, there were only 3 basic mild steel rods that were used. 6010, 7018 and other XX18 rods and for non critical high production, 7024. It's not hard to do a good weld with any of them when you know what you're doing AND have a decent welding machine to use. Some AC machines work OK, some are a POS but a DC machine will make ANYONE a better welder and welding a lot less frustrating. Dave
 
There can be significant differences between the same classification of rods. That's why most welders have a preference for a specific brand. Dave
 
Trucker I can answer for myself. Don't ever to try to guess what you think I'm talking about. You'll be wrong about 110% of the time. Starter strips and run off strips are generally required for semi automatic and automatic equipment like sub arc welding. I couldn't use a starter strip for any of the bend tests I had to pass. Dave
 
I don't know about Canada but here in the US a Boilermaker is not a pressure vessel welder.
Boilermaking involves a large variety of jobs. Fitting, disassembly and reassembly of heat exchangers/ boilers and the like. My primary craft is a boilermaker. I worked in a shop where we built all forms of tanks and vessels. I did the layout for nozzles and attachments, rolled plate, did all the cutting and fitting of nozzles, heads and attachments. The welder tacked for me and when I was done my portion of the job the welder welded it out.
My secondary craft is a welder and in some instances I welded out.
We now hire outside boilermakers to fit and work on heat exchangers and boilers.
My 2¢
Rich
 
The nicest running rods I've used have been BOC brand... though I don't know who actually made them. Marquette has been the worst by far. Very difficult to maintain an arc. Liquid Air have also been good but I find that they need to burn a bit hotter than the BOC that I've used... which generally leads to my welder heating up quicker...

Rod
 
What is a Boilermaker?
Boilermakers build, erect, repair, test and maintain all types of boilers, tanks and pressure vessels, and perform all types of structural and plate work on dust, air, gas, steam, oil, water, and other liquid-tight containers.

This is from the Boilermakers local 146 union website. Boilermaker is often used as a generic term that covers any trade involved with boilers and/or pressure vessels. As far as it relates to welding procedures and equipment, a certified pressure welder should have the most knowledge. Some people have dual tickets for working on vessels. Other than tacks that will be cut out later, all welding on a pressure vessel must be done by a certified pressure welder. Even the small welds to hold the name plate on. Shops have lost their ASME certification to build vessels by having non certified welders weld on them. There is one exception to this. A sub-arc operator does not have to be a journeyman welder (required before becoming a pressure welder)to weld the shells and heads on vessels. They do have to do a weld test that passes x-ray though. The sub-arc is all done with automatic equipment so it is a lot easier than doing it manually. Dave
 
As I am both a coded welder and a boilermaker all of this is not news to me.
I am also a an Inspector. A Certified Welding Inspector well versed in ASME Section VIII Division I Pressure vessel code. Our company has an "R" stamp for repairing registered pressure vessels. We had a "U" stamp at one time but no longer wanted to actually build vessels. I work at a Chemical Plant that has our own welders. We follow ASME, NBIC and API codes for repair of tanks, vessels and pipe lines. I have also been a Boilermaker for 31 years, welder for 25 years and Inspector for 15 years.
Are there any other documents you may want to cite that says anything different than my previous post?
 
Someone asked if there were any Boilermakers or pipe fitters on this forum and the original post was about welding rods. Going by the official meaning of Boilermaker, a pressure welder would probably have more knowledge of welding rods. I worked in a few shops that had multiple ASME U and R stamps. One of them even did in house gamma ray and ultrasound testing. If you worked night shift, sometimes you got extended breaks in the lunch trailer because they were taking x-rays. Dave
 
135 Fan et al,
What is it about welders that makes them want to argue and brag about their knowledge, experience, certifications, etc. like no other trade on this forum? :P
Now, mind you, I enjoy reading all the posts on welding as I am a newbie at welding and have a lot to learn. Seem to learn more on this site than some welding forums that I've browsed. And I'm not knocking any of you guys on here.

But just about any welding topic will turn into an online fight between 135Fan, trucker40, Puddles etc. :lol:

Is it just a macho thing to brag about the 20, 25 , 35 etc. years spent behind a helmet? I don't hear carpenters bragging about swinging a California framing hammer for 25 yrs or electricians bragging about wiring up machine tools for 20 yrs.

For most of us, we're just trying to repair that busted top link bracket on the brush hog or fab up a tool to fix something. Not pressure vessel welding.

For instance, in spite of hearing all the bad stuff about 6013 on here, I continue to use the pile I got with the used welder I bought. But I've also bought new 6011 and will probably get some 7018 to play with on my buzz-box. (Although, I don't think the 10K difference will mean anything to stuff that I'm going to be working on.)

As an aside, an old German tool-maker told me over 35 yrs ago that if you've got to TELL him how good you are, you probably aren't that good. And I've found that I learn more by listening than talking anyway. :lol:
 
While I understand most of what you are saying,dont let one persons ego distort what is actually going on.In truth everybody is proud of theri experience in doing their job.You arent going to hear them bragging about swinging a hammer for 25 years in California much on a tractor site.However Im sure at a bar you will hear a lot of bragging going on,or at least some.
I dont know what it is about welders that make them brag like they do,but its always been like that I guess?
I think a lot of stuff gets said thats really not necessary,and a bunch thats not really true.
However there is a lot to know about welding something.You could get hurt,or hurt somebody else welding a crappy weld with your 6013 on that day you feel kind of onery and dont chip it and most of it is a slag inclusion and very little weld at all.
I want the people that read this stuff to improve.That means read and look at videos,maybe even take a course or have a good welder show you how to weld right.Anything you can do to improve.
Just because he blows everything out of proportion it seems,doesnt make him wrong about everything either.
If you know some stuff about welding ,and you can weld with 7018,your level of fixing your stuff could turn into a way of making money by fixing stuff for other people.Or doing bigger,harder,projects for yourself and saving money.
There is a whole lot of difference between some guy with a welder who has som 6011 and 6013 rods playing around and some guy who went to school and welds for a living.Even if all that Ive ever seen are different than this guy who posts here,it still does mean some of the stuff he talks about is right.I dont understand why he is like he is,but Im a mechanic not a psychiatrist.
I wouldnt think that somebody who was trying to fix their stuff would want to do it over and over.Thats what you will be doing with the 6013 probably.You need to get better,so that means that pronouncing that you are welding stuff with 6013 and 6011 is not really a good thing either as far as posting stuff is concerned.

You ought to get somebody to show you how to run 7018 and practice a lot with it.

Its good that you did what you did and got the welder and all,but just get better.
 
I couldn't agree more, JML. And for small equipment 6011 and 6013 is sufficient. You could bend a piece of larger 6011 into a hook and hang the everage 5 foot brushhog from it. And welding the top link bracket that broke on it is nothing like welding the walking beam on a 1000 bushel manure spreader.

I'm betting if most guys, you included, doubted their ability to weld something and have it hold, they would have someone do it who they know can make it work.
 
My son is a much better carpenter than I am because he has worked at it much longer than I did.Hes foreman for a crew now.I have done some foundation work but there are plenty of fellows who are far better at it than I am.I put new shingles on the south side of my shop roof.He did the north side later on. You can see the difference.My side wont leak but his side looks much better.Nothing beats years on the job.My welds hold but a fellow who welds every day who smile at my beads.A welder I knew many years ago said this.By the time your any good you cant see.
 
I will agree that 6011 is good because it digs in good and holds.6013 doesnt.Plus to weld with 6013 you need to be able to weld good.If you dont know that,you probably shouldnt be welding stuff with 6013 to start with.
If you are going to weld something flat,7024 or drag rod ,makes a lot better,stronger,weld than 6013,and it looks real good if you do it right.7014 is better and stronger and easier to weld with than 6013.7018 is about as good as you can get for welding most every day things around a tractor.After you know a little about welding you will throw away the 6013.You will like the 6011 however.7018 is easy to weld with if you know how.Its just how you do it is what makes the difference.
So you got on here talking about how 6013 was good to make repairs with,it is not good for that since there are lots of better rods to use.Actually all of the rods are better to use except for 7024 in any position other than flat.
If you know something about welding,you know at least about the rods you can use.If good welders are telling you not to use 6013,you would be a lot better off to listen to them and use a different rod.
Sometimes 6011 will make a mess out of fixing something when if you had welded it with 7018 to start with it would hold and look good too.Ive welded lots of stuff somebody slapped together with 6011 or 6013 and didnt even do a good job of welding with it and it was full of slag and broke.Then somebody else,like me,will grind the crappy weld out and weld it right with 7018 and it will hold.
Why people insist on using 6013 when there is 7014 is just ridiculous.Plus 7018 is easier to weld with than 7014 if you know how to weld with it.6013 is for welding sheet metal and not a deep penetrating rod.Even if you did manage to make a good weld with it,it still wouldnt be as strong as even 6011.Its about the weakest weld you can make.
So instead of getting on the internet and bragging about welding stuff with 6013 and 6011,look around at what there is on the internet about welding,and maybe take a course in welding,or at least have somebody show you how to weld with the different rods,and try and be a welder of at least enough skill to know what rods to use and make a decent weld with them.Just doing that will take a while.
Welding is not the hardest thing you can do,but it is real important that you do it right.Picking a rod to weld with is all part of doing it right in the first place.Especially before you hurt yourself or somebody else.
 
I did take classes. And we aren't all pros working in a shop here, we're getting something patched together so that it works. And I got a box of 6013 once by mistake and hate the stuff, but if I can't find anything else, for the repairs I make it will usually work. Most of that pound is still sitting in dad's barn and several years old. About all I would use it for is tacking because it is such a crappy rod to weld with. But if you read my post, you would see that it says "FOR MOST SMALL EQUIPMENT".

I don't care so much how it looks, as long as it holds.

I didn't say to go buy a bunch of it. I said for most light repairs it will work. We don't all do pressure vessels, we don't all work in shops. We don't all weld truck frames. Most of my welding is done with 6011, and for something that takes a lot of stress, like the stabilizer pad I fabbed up for the backhoe, I used 7018. I would still be using a lot of United Alloy's Supertrode if I could afford the stuff.

I also have guys saying I should toss the buzzbox and get a DC welder, but the buzzbox does the job I need it to.

And a California framing hammer is a type of hammer, it doesn't mean it's in California.
 
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