What makes a live pto

[gwstang]

...Be live? Is it something with the clutch setup being different (later models) than my '52 8N? Just got to know.

 

[Royse]

"Live" PTO can be ran without the driving clutch engaged.
On certain models, like the x60 series it was by means of a two stage clutch.
You could let the clutch up half way and run the PTO, let it up the
rest of the way and move the tractor. Or, push it down half way and
stop the tractor without stopping the PTO.
Other manufacturers had slightly different setups, AC for example had
a hand clutch that would stop tractor motion yet let the PTO run
and a foot clutch that would stop both. Same principle.
Later with the SOS, Ford had "independent" PTO that could be
turned on and off without bothering with a clutch, tractor moving
or not.
I'm sure you know on the N series the PTO (and hydraulics) stop
when the clutch is depressed.
"Live" hydraulics, not relying on the clutch, for the Ford 3PT
hitch started with the NAA. Still didn't have live PTO.

Edit: re-reading that, I hope it answered your question. Yes,
something with the clutch setup on the early models.

 

[gwstang]

(quoted from post at 18:59:55 07/02/13) "Live" PTO can be ran without the driving clutch engaged.
On certain models, like the x60 series it was by means of a two stage clutch.
You could let the clutch up half way and run the PTO, let it up the
rest of the way and move the tractor. Or, push it down half way and
stop the tractor without stopping the PTO.
Other manufacturers had slightly different setups, AC for example had
a hand clutch that would stop tractor motion yet let the PTO run
and a foot clutch that would stop both. Same principle.
Later with the SOS, Ford had "independent" PTO that could be
turned on and off without bothering with a clutch, tractor moving
or not.
I'm sure you know on the N series the PTO (and hydraulics) stop
when the clutch is depressed.
"Live" hydraulics, not relying on the clutch, for the Ford 3PT
hitch started with the NAA. Still didn't have live PTO.

Edit: re-reading that, I hope it answered your question. Yes,
something with the clutch setup on the early models.

Nice info. If I am understanding, it's a double clutch setup. Was this the same as double clutching in an older vehicle?

 

[Royse]

(quoted from post at 22:14:29 07/02/13)

(quoted from post at 18:59:55 07/02/13) "Live" PTO can be ran without the driving clutch engaged.
On certain models, like the x60 series it was by means of a two stage clutch.
You could let the clutch up half way and run the PTO, let it up the
rest of the way and move the tractor. Or, push it down half way and
stop the tractor without stopping the PTO.
Other manufacturers had slightly different setups, AC for example had
a hand clutch that would stop tractor motion yet let the PTO run
and a foot clutch that would stop both. Same principle.
Later with the SOS, Ford had "independent" PTO that could be
turned on and off without bothering with a clutch, tractor moving
or not.
I'm sure you know on the N series the PTO (and hydraulics) stop
when the clutch is depressed.
"Live" hydraulics, not relying on the clutch, for the Ford 3PT
hitch started with the NAA. Still didn't have live PTO.

Edit: re-reading that, I hope it answered your question. Yes,
something with the clutch setup on the early models.

Nice info. If I am understanding, it's a double clutch setup. Was this the same as double clutching in an older vehicle?

Not the same as double clutching. This is actually two clutches.
One engages the PTO, the other drives the transmission and rear end.

 

[gwstang]

Okay, thanks. What was the old timers doing with the "double clutching on the vehicles?

 

[Dean]

"Live PTO" was a major improvement made to farm tractors in the late 1940s/early 1950s.

The term means different things to different people but, in essense, "live PTO" is a means of stopping tractor motion without interrupting PTO power.

This is a significant technolgical advance vis a vis the run of the mill N series tractor, especially beneficial in the early 1950s when operating a non engine driven baler.

Though there are multiple methods of acheiving so-called "live PTO," prior to the advent of independent PTO, the most common such means was the so-called double clutch.

Dean

 

[R Geiger]

Double clutching was required in older cars that did not have syno trans to get the gears to engage. You pushed the clutch, took it out of gear, let up on clutch, then depressed it again before going to the next gear. It was quite easy once you got the hang of it.

I learned on a 1946 chev truck.

 

[504-1]

Double clutching is,push the pedal down,move the shifter in to neutral,slow the throttle to idle, release the clutch,(all at the same time) push the pedal down and change in to the gear you want. Almost all American tractors made in the 30-80s and most manual transmission road trucks do not have synchronized transmissions.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Royse explained it quite well.
Let me add a little to it.
In addition to the dual clutch discs a live pto tractor has dual input shafts into the tranny.
One is inside the other. The inner shaft only propells the tractor. The outer one only propells the pto.
On an Independent PTO the setup is similar. One input shaft inside of the other. Except the outer shaft is not run through a clutch disc.
It turns constantly whenever the engine is turning. That is why it is Independent of the clutch.
Lots of folks will tell you ya gots to have live pto. I happen to think on a tractor under 40 horse it is rather over rated. Live hydraulics on the other hand is indispensable IMO.

 

[gwstang]

AhhSooo. That makes sense. Modern gear shifters are synchronized, so none of that monkey business with the clutch. My '66 mustang toploader tranny is synchronized and smooth as glass.

 

[gwstang]

Well, if they had it in the '40's, was Old Man Ford too cheap to add it to the N's?

 

[gwstang]

I have to wonder if the old timey type of semi-trucks hauling big trailers were synchronized. Seems I remember as a kid, they use to "grind" the gears quite a big down shifting etc. to go up long hills.

 

[gwstang]

Excellent visual. Thanks.

 

[ScoutB]

(quoted from post at 22:23:17 07/02/13)
Okay, thanks. What was the old timers doing with the "double clutching on the vehicles?

Knowing how to double clutch makes me an old timer?

 

[heybusdriver]

I used to do that on my old 53 Ford , not because
I had to I just liked to do that except 1 time
when speed shifting to show off to friends , I
missed and that was the end of my clutch, thought
I blew the transmission. When I took it apart ,
clutch was in many small pieces.

Stan
9N 222933
2N with 8N motor 8N345567
8N 146710
8N 179555
8N 197904
8N 199000
8N 254079
8N 362039

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Here a picture of the double spline input shaft that Ultradog talked about.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

And a corresponding double clutch that Ford used on most hundred series tractors. This one from a 660.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Man O man!
Are you planning a picnic in there?
That's so clean a guy could eat off of it.

 

[willie in mn]

Replies below pretty well explain live pto.
Most of my contacts use "two stage clutch" when talking about pto systems to prevent confusing with "double clutch" method of shifting.
Someone mentioned "Old Man Ford", aka Henry I. He had no input in design of 8n, he was dead by then. So was his son Edsel. Edsel's son, Henry 's grandson, Henry II made the split with Ferguson. First priority was redesigning the 3 point hitch to get around Ferguson's patents.
WJ

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Ultradog, I wish I had some before shots. Both the rear main and input shaft were leaking. The bottom cover plate was missing. There was a 2 inch thick mixture of grass, oil, and dirt on the bottom and oil all over everything. Not to mention that the fork, throw out bearing, and the throw out bearing mount were completely shot. The bad throw out bearing had trashed what looked like an almost new clutch. What a mess. Not a cheap fix either.

On to the picnic

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 22:58:55 07/02/13)
I have to wonder if the old timey type of semi-trucks hauling big trailers were synchronized. Seems I remember as a kid, they use to "grind" the gears quite a big down shifting etc. to go up long hills.

rinding was only when op didn't know how to do it.

 

[Dean]

IIRC, "Live PTO" hit the market in 1949 (Cockshut/Co-Op?). The Dearborn "live PTO accessory was optionally available shortly thereafter.

Few farm tractors had live PTO as standard equipment in the early 1950s.

Dean

 

[gwstang]

I've rebuilt a couple of 1990 Ford AOD trannies and that looks like the input shaft on them, more or less.

 

[504-1]

I am driving a 2012 Freightliner, 10 speed Eaton, and it is not synchronized.

 

[gwstang]

Well fess up! Do you ever "grind 'em" while chatting on the CB?