what next? te20 won't go

[semlin]

hi folks

so i am hoping for suggestions here. i am stumped. this is a te20 with a z120 that had not run for at least 8 years but supposedly "it ran" and was set up with a scraper for winter driveway use.

when i got it the sump was full of gas mixed with oil and the carb was literally filled with grey dirty sediment. the rad had clean looking green coolant mix.

it has a fairly new looking 12 volt negative alternator fitted, and had the original 6 volt coil and starter with a ballast resistor. it had an ignition from a car that seems to work fine with power to the coil in the "on" position

i have

-soaked the cylinders in seafoam for several days before cranking. it appears to have decent compression although i have not tested.

-cleaned and rebuilt the carb with the basic napa kit and set the idle to 2 turns out, the power mix one turn out and the float to 1/4". after a lot of effort i am confident all the carb passages are clear of crud.

-replaced the corroded distributor cap with a new one, new rotor, replaced the plug wire leads, and installed a 12 volt coil (bypassing the ballast resistor)

-replaced the fuel line and the fuel bowl strainer/shut off

-soaked the gas tank for days in castrol super clean and gotten most of the crud out. i still get a little junk in the sediment.

-tried every combination of throttle and choke setting i can think of

it started the first time i tried and it ran for a couple of minutes at full throttle / no choke. the engine did not make any bad sounds but as soon as i backed off the throttle it stalled. after three days i have not been able to get it running for more than a couple of seconds since.

it will start for a second the first time then stall when you try to start it cold. i will also sometimes start for a second if you shut off fuel, drain the carb bowl and wait a minute.

it does not seem to be flooding and i have played with the float setting out to 5/16" to no avail. i have removed the carb and the bowls are about 2/3 full

the points look ok but i am ordering new points and condensor anyway since i can't think of what else.

i get a small white spark. not blue.

i do also have a couple of questions about the carb.

there is a single hole to the left of the idle jet hole in the upper body where the marvel schebler manual says some carbs have an economizer jet. there is nothing in that hole and i see no threads. it is a tsx361a carb according to the little brass plate. i assume it has no economizer jet.

also, the choke plate is missing the retaining spring for the little door and seems to be in backwards. i cannot remove it because i cannot turn it so that it faces the right way. it seems like it is machined that way. i cannot figure out how to remove it.

any help would be appreciated.

 

[steve loosemore]

Are the plugs wet or dry immediately after stalling?

 

[steve loosemore]

I found your earlier message and answered it. The bottom line is that it may be flooding, that 1/4 inch is the correct float height, and the idle mix screw should probably be one turn out.

 

[phil(va)]

Your symptoms (ran well for a few moments, then would not restart) sound to me like trash in the line or carb. I'm thinking you got carb clean and fired it up and it ran, but more crud worked down either from the line or from carb bowl and got it clogged again. There is a brass main jet in the bowl that has multiple small holes in it and it requires a thin 3/8 deep well socket to remove correctly. Did you pull that and clean it? Another thought, I'm not normally a proponent of separate in line filters, but in your case that might be a good thing, probably one you can see into.

 

[semlin]

(quoted from post at 00:58:06 06/18/09) Your symptoms (ran well for a few moments, then would not restart) sound to me like trash in the line or carb. I'm thinking you got carb clean and fired it up and it ran, but more crud worked down either from the line or from carb bowl and got it clogged again. There is a brass main jet in the bowl that has multiple small holes in it and it requires a thin 3/8 deep well socket to remove correctly. Did you pull that and clean it? Another thought, I'm not normally a proponent of separate in line filters, but in your case that might be a good thing, probably one you can see into.

thanks phil. the extra inline filter is an idea. i have an extra from my lawn tractor. i'll see if i can plumb it.

that said, i did remove the 3/8 nozzle and clean it. in fact i took the carb apart again last night and blew everything out again. there was a little bit of sediment in the bottom of the carb bowl at the drain holes but otherwise everything seemed clear. when i reassembled it (and checked fuel was flowing freely in the fuel line) it would not start.

btw, i bought a soccer ball inflator needle attachment for my compressor air gun and it really blasts out those carb passages. highly recommended.

 

[semlin]

steve, thanks for the comments. i will check the plugs again. they were wet after the first round of trying but i haven't thought to check them since.

i will also try the idle one 360 turn out. the generic marvel schebler carb manual i found on a ferguson site had suggested two turns out.

another comment (grasping at straws really). the carb kit came with two idle screws. one had a sharper point at the end. i used the less steep pointy one that matched the idle screw i removed.

 

[phil(va)]

One more thought. I have a 30 that can be stubborn to start sometimes and I have done all I can think of to do. When it doesn't want to fire, I can remove the input hose from the carb and while cranking it over hit the input to the carb with a little bit of starter fluid and it fires right up and runs great. Try that.

 

[semlin]

is the intake manifold gasket on these steel and likely to be reusable? i am thinking of unbolting the manifold it to see if it might be full of crud, but i don't have a new gasket.

 

[Jerry/MT]

You've replaced most of the ignition system but not the points and condensor!

When you check the spark, you should have a FAT, BLUISH-WHITE SPARK, the color of lightning. Make sure that you have the correct point setting, 0.022", look for corroded, burn't, or oily points etc. You nede to have the requisite FAT, BLUISH WHITE SPARK. If you can't the proper spark, you'll have to start checking for a high resistance in the primary circuit and consider replacing the condensor. Also check the distributor shaft/bushing wear. Rotate the engine til the points close and then push radially (from the side) on the distributor shaft and watch the points. Do this from several different directions around the shaft. Any motion in the points indicates that shaft and/or bushing is worn and needs to be fixed.

"...as soon as I backed off the throttle, it stalled...." Could be that your advance mechanism in the distributor is sticking, throwing off the timing.

I'd set the power jet to 1-1/4 turn out and crack the throttle part way open when you attempt to start. If it still doesn't start, disconnect the air tube from the carb inlet and hand choke the carb, since your choke doesn't work. The choke door opens backwards driven by engine suction (Pambient - Pmanifold).

Hope this helps.

 

[semlin]

i definitely do not have a fat spark and no blue. it is white and like a pinprick. i assumed that was normal on an old system like this.

the points and condensor looked brand new, but i ordered a new set today anyway. i found an english car parts company locally and it turns out the early te20 points and consdensor are common to about 20 english cars from the 50s. the lucas p/n is 407050 and 407044 if anyone ever needs them. apparently any old english car parts place should be able to get them.

i gapped them using the little lucas point gapping tool that came in the tool box. i don't know what gap that would be, but i will gap at .022 to be sure.

i will recheck the play on the distributor shaft. there was not enough to open the points when closed but i only pushed from one direction.

If it still doesn't start, disconnect the air tube from the carb inlet and hand choke the carb, since your choke doesn't work. The choke door opens backwards driven by engine suction (Pambient - Pmanifold).

Hope this helps.

thanks! i will wait for another thread to try to figure out how to get that choke plate facing the right way to pull out. for now, it does work, but the little door in it doesn't.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Have you checked the choke lever to see if someone installed it backwards? The choke plate is held on by two screws and can possiblyt be put on two different ways, and only one of them is correct.

 

[semlin]

(quoted from post at 10:35:43 06/18/09) Have you checked the choke lever to see if someone installed it backwards? The choke plate is held on by two screws and can possiblyt be put on two different ways, and only one of them is correct.

i am pretty sure it must be upside down. it is hard to explain, but because of the little door it is only possible to pull the choke plate out of the crossbar in one direction. the other way the door gets stuck and prevents you pulling the plate through. on mine, it is impossible to rotate the choke so that the door is lined up to pull the plate out the intake, and there is no room to remove the plate by pulling it into the carb. i cannot figure out how it was installed.

i either need to remove the door from the plate while it is still in the carb or get the whole thing to rotate 180 degrees which it will not do and does not appear to be designed to do.

 

[steve loosemore]

Well, you sure have generated some interest here.
If the plugs are wet with gas immediately after stalling,there is fuel flow, maybe to much. There was enough spark to make it run. That it ran at high speed, then stalled when you throttled back makes me suspect that it would run on the high speed jet but was too rich on the idle jet and flooded. This is also indicated by running after draining the carb. The choke could be involved. I only have a drawing of a later model TSX in my TO-35 parts manual to go by, which shows a half moon open slot in the top of the choke plate and two screws that would be looking at you with the choke closed. The kind of choke that has a spring loaded door in it could cause the engine to act like this if the choke is closed. Door opens at high speed and vacuum. The drawing shows a pointy idle screw.

The manifold gasket is composition fiber with a steel core. I would not reuse one if it was installed with gasket cement. They are cheap.

Well, hang in there. This is a problem that can be solved.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Whoever installed it probably used the BFH technique and that's why the door the choke flap is broken. On the Ford N board, The is a fellow who rebuilds carb and since the N's use the same basic carbs, he might be able to point you to where you might find a another choke plate or gibve some advice on removing it. His handle is GB in MT. Tell him Jerry/MT sent you.

 

[semlin]

i have started a thread in the ford 9n section dealing with the carb issues. based on the photo gary posted, i believe my choke plate is upside down and i am also completely missing the economizer jet which should be at the bottom of a threaded hole i do have.

on the bright side, i installed the new points and condenser and i now have a fat white spark. it still won't start, but i am pretty sure it is not electrical at this point and i can focus on the carb where i think the problems must lie.

apart from the issues i have raised with gary, the other comment is that the plugs are dry. i have obviously somehow changed something with the fuel delivery since i started this. it may be the slightly higher float setting so i am going to try going back down. i am also going to remove and blow out the strainer and fuel line tomorrow. i ran out of time to do that today. i seem to have good flow when i test it but perhaps it is not there.

i also pushed a wire brush up into the intake above the carb and it seems clear.

 

[semlin]

btw, jerry, i did gap it to .022. that is much wider than the little lucas gapping tool i found in the tool box.

also, thanks to everybody for their help and suggestions. this is a great board to offer so much help and i am learning as i go here.