wheel seal TO_20

[bobs old iron]

my left wheel seal has a leak, how hard and long has it taken someone to replace one. is it hard to do. any different than a big truck, 1-ton+, should i be in for any suprise. any special tool needed, [other than jacks, wrenchs, air impacts].

 

[John (UK)]

If the oil is coming from inside the Brake drum it is the seal, if it is running down outside of Backplate it is the gasket. If it is the seal which it often is, make sure first that you have the correct amount of oil in there. (Allow any oil to run out through bottom hole of round side cover) You can fit a "Sure Seals" inside on the shaft without tearing the shaft down, this is easiest method. If you need the info on how to do it email me at [email protected] and I will send it....John

 

[Anonymous-0]

I currently have a TO20 dissasembled for rear wheel bearing seal leakage. It had a sure seal installed some 650 hours a ago by previous owner.

HERE"S THE PROBLEM: The sure seal was installed as an EZ fix to eleminate the need to remove/diassemble the hub. But this does NOT fix the OUTER seal leakage. IF grease is packed into the bearing then the grease will simply leak (albeit slowly) past the EXISTING BAD OUTER seal thus STARVING the bearing for lubrication.

 

[John (UK)]

That is correct, the inner "Sure Seal" prevents or helps prevent the oil from the Transmission getting into the Hub Bearing, so you pack it with grease as it does need lubrication. If the outer seal is leaking and if the grease does melt, it will leak through it, but it is less likely to leak than oil is. This system of the two oil seals was fitted to later TE20's and all TO30's. The Bearing should be packed with grease every 12 months. If you use High Melting Point grease (HMP), as is recommended, there will be little, if any, leakage of the grease into the brakes unless you get the brakes really hot. Even ordinary grease will not leak as quickly as oil through a bad seal.I prefer to change both seals but not everyone has the equipment or the inclination to change the outer one. We have a lot of people fitting the inner Sure Seal and not changing the outer seal and they don't report any problems doing it the easy way, but of course it will depend on the condition of the outer seal and the state of the Bearing [email protected]

 

[Anonymous-0]

I'm still disassembling the unit. Just removed the Sure Seal. It looks ok and fits the shaft good. I've found that it seems as if the BEARING retainer collar is not pressed onto the shaft all the way.

The question now is: Did the retainer collar move on it's own or was it simply not pushed on at assembly all of the way????

It was done by a previous owner/service provider. I'll investigate further with further disassembly. But first i plan to see how ez the collar moves by trying to press it on down further. Needs to go at least 1/16" more or maybe as much as a full 1/8".

I wish i could figure out how to post pictures at this website.

 

[Anonymous-0]

BTW, there was PLENTY of grease in the bearing area. The leakage was trans/axle fluid simply getting past the SURE seal ONLY because the bearing is so loose due to the retainer collar not pushed on all of the way.

I'm just wondering if the OUTER seal is bad now due to the loose wheel bearing. I have more disassembly to do.

I really like the TO 20.

 

[John (UK)]

If, as you say, the Collar has not been on all the way, then the shaft will have been sliding in and out of the Diff, but this will usually make a noise. Also there is some confusion about this collar, even when it is knocked into position fully, you will get some movement of the Bearing hub and it looks like the Hub is not on far enough, but this can be checked by making sure that the end-float on the axle-shafts is adjusted correctly with the shims, once this is adjusted there is no danger of the axle moving like you seem to think it maybe doing. The Collars MUST be heated and dropped into place and then knocked into position just to make sure, you can't knock them on or try to tighten them up while they are cold or they will slip on the axle-shaft again.
The outer seal could be worn, but if there is some oil leaking through, it maybe is unlikely as the lip will slip easily on the axle-shaft, but really to be sure it does need changing. Usually the Sure Seals don't leak so there could very well be something wrong like you think and it does need checking to be sure. When you attempt to check the end-float you should tighten ALL the hub bolts each time or you will not get a true reading and it can distort the Hub face and that will cause a leak. Don't use gasket cement here as eventually it will compress and allow the hub to slacken off and start to move and wear away the gaskets. make sure that you use the gaskets and shims in the correct order, which is:- tractor axle /shims/gasket/brake back-plate/gasket/ bearing hub/ If you need any info about setting the axle-float, email me at [email protected]
John

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have not disturbed the shrink collar YET. The brake backing plate is removed. Otherwise the axle shaft and hub is exactly the way it was removed from the tractor.

I place the axle shaft and hub assembly VERTICLE on the bench resting on the wheel lug studs and the splined end of the axle shaft sticking streight up in the air at the top.

I can move the hub up and down a full 1/8 to 5/32" as measured with a machinsts square.

Is that about average????? Sure seems like a lot of slop to me.

 

[Anonymous-0]

All of the parts are cleaned up and a new gasket made for between the hub and the backing plate.

I'll begin fitting and measuring end-play tomorrow or friday.

One comment i will make about the Sure Seal:

The area of the axle shaft that the rubber lip of the Sure Seal rides on is not ground real smooth but rather appears to have been "ruff cut" with a lathe. My plan is to polish the axle shaft with some coal oil and crocus cloth to a smoother finish than what exists from the HF factory. Probably not necessary but definately a good idea to preserve longevity of the Sure Seal rubber lip.

 

[John (UK)]

The axle is usually quite a good surface and the Sure seal can run on it with ease and without any damage. What has possibly happened is that the collar has been knocked on the axle, by someone later, and not heated enough, this will mark the shaft and you should be able to tell if this is how it is by the marking on the shaft, it will be in the direction the collar was fitted. But as you say it will need cleaning up and polishing to make sure that the Sure seal does make a good seal. The finish from the factory never gave any problems it is what happens afterwards....John

 

[John (UK)]

You will get such a movement like you say, this is taken up by the adjustment of the Hubs to the axle housing and how many shims are fitted. Don't forget that it is a Taper roller bearing so the load on it will be when it is all fastened up in the axle.email me about this if you need to [email protected]

 

[Anonymous-0]

I'm a little confused. I've got it completely disassembled now. The hub is off of the axle. The shoulder of the axle shaft that the shrink collar heats and presses over measures 2.001" as measuerd with a micromter.
One of the eBay seller says that his collar measures 2.004" ID. Others do not indicate an ID.

What should the ID of the shrink collar be for a good heat and press fit?????? I don;t want to order one that is too loose.

 

[RenegadeV8]

Test

 

[John (UK)]

They don't make an alternative Collar for the TO20 they are all the same. There is a different one for very late TO30's that have the TO35 Rear Axle but that is all. All TE20's/ TO20's and Most TO30's use the same one:- MF181257M1 or Sparex S41407...the size is given as 2" x 2-15/16" x 11/16". From what I remember of your earlier post, I thought at the time that someone had pressed the Collar on the Axle-shaft rather than heat it and dropped it on, that could account for the axle shaft being under-size as it would remove some metal from the shaft as the collar was pressed on if this is the case. Perhaps you would look at this carefully to see if it looks as though this is what has [email protected]

 

[RenegadeV8]

The shrink collar was definately heated before it was pressed onto the shaft because i can see that it had turned somewhat blueish due to torch heat.

Another odd thing i have noticed is that the hub (bearing retainer or "retainer assembly" as HF calls it) is painted red!! It has the HF logo cast into it. This is the only part of the tractor i have found not to be painted (originaly) grey. Wonder why HF painted this one part red??? Havn't had the other side apart yet to see if it is red or not.

BTW: i made a puller out of a scrap disk brake rotor and 2wo 3/8 threaded rods 4 feet long to remove the hub. Works pretty good. Cheap too. I'll post pics but i can't see any way to post them on this website.

 

[RenegadeV8]

The area of the shaft that the shrink collar mates to does not show any signs of of any metal rolled up or any other corruption on the surface.

 

[John (UK)]

Ferguson did not usually paint any parts red, in fact the parts on the axle-shafts would not be painted at all, just wax or grease protected after machining.I would think that this part has been painted when it has been repaired at sometime in the past. If the inside of the Brake Back plates are any colour other than black, then they too have been repainted.
If the Collar has been heated then there is no reason why it should not have been successful in retaining the Bearing etc. This Collar should be heated to cherry red and then quickly dropped into place and then immediately knocked with a drift or long tube over the Axle-shaft, to make sure that it is properly in position. Before you do drop the Collar into place you should be sure that the Bearing is in the correct position on the Axle-shaft and then you can safely add the Collar. I have never known a Collar to move after it has been fitted by heating correctly, I have known people fit them cold and knock them into position and of course they came loose again. This shrunk-on Collar method was used on all the TE20's/TO20's/TO30's/ 35's/ 135's and even models later than that. So it has been tried and tested on many millions of tractors. The Collar internal diameter on a TO20 should be between 2.2435" and 2.2450" and the shaft outer diameter should be between 2.2515" and 2.2510". You can email those drawings to me at:- [email protected] look forward to seeing them, I have seen a few variations of these pullers that have been made and it is always interesting to see what others do...John

 

[RenegadeV8]

Quick update:

BOught a shrink collar from the local (former MF) dealer. ID measured 1.995 and shaft 2.001 allowing for a 0.006" fit. Heated as per your instructions to dull red and it fell rite on with no problems. Slapped it a few times with a pipe like shown in the service manual.

THis job turned out to be alot easier than what i had originaly dreaded due to the 'special tools' and shrink collar heating. Actualy all of it was pretty ez.

I reused the Sure Seal but polished out the area that the rubber lip rides on just for insurance.

One thing that is not clear in the manual is location of the shims. do they go between axle housing and backing plate or between hub and backing plate????? I assume the gasket goes betweeen hub and backing plate.

Both backing plates are painted black on the insde surface.

I'll email pics of the homemade tool in a day or two.

More later.

 

[John (UK)]

Fitting new seals is fairly easy, its getting them off that causes problems. Using the special tools makes it easy, but who has those?
It can be done relatively easy with a bit of common sense without any of the tools.
The seals and shims are fitted in this order, from the Trumpet housing:- shims/gasket/Back Plate/ gasket. There are TWO gaskets to each Hub, that is FOUR gaskets per tractor. You need to make sure that the End float on the axle-shaft is set correctly. Check the nuts on the hubs quite often for a few weeks until things settle down. Make sure that the oil level in the axle is not too high and allow any oil that will run out of the bottom hole on the round side plates to run until it stops. It will be slightly lower than normal but unless you are drawing off oil for a trailer or a loader there is more than enough and it lessens the danger of oil leaking into the brakes. When you are checking for the end-float, fit one shaft with some shims and gaskets in the correct order and tighten up all the nuts on the Hub, then fit the other side and push the axle all the way in until it touches the opposite one. Then pull gently pull just the Hub out-wards and then you can measure the gap between the Hub face and the Brake Back Plate using feeler gauges, to this figure add .005" in shims, this should give you enough clearance when you tighten everything up tight. But check it when you have done this to see if the axle turns in opposite directions when you turn one of them, if they do, then it will be OK, you should engage any gear on the transmission before you do this. BUT if you have not added enough shims they will both turn in the same direction, if you add too many you will get too much end float in the axle (in and out)aim for a maximum of .010" but less is better.You should make sure that you tighten ALL the nuts on the Hubs each time even if you are just testing, if you just tighten every other one it could distort the Hub face and it will never seal. Don't use sealer on these gaskets as it will compress and then the Hubs get slightly loose and start to move and then wear away the gaskets, just use plain gaskets and shims. If you need shims or gaskets, you can use the ones from any 35 tractor locally although the correct ones are available from this site, they have more holes than you need but they work fine. If you need more info about all this, just email [email protected] or [email protected]