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When giving advice.

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dennisinoklahoma

Member
Hey you other old experienced guys.

Please start advising the rookies to buy the Operators Manual, Service Manual, and Parts manuals for their equipment. It will save the rookie a lot of time and frustration and maybe even a marriage.

With a manual, he or she may even figure out how to do it right the first time. Before you comment, please be aware I acknowledge the fact that the manuals are not always correct and may be out of date. I also know old stuff needs creative thinking. That being said, for a rookie, nothing replaces a good technical manual, not even gramps. No, I do not sell manuals.

A case or two in point. The full set of tech manuals for a 8N cost less than half the cost of a new distibutor, and I guess less than 1/4 the cost of a 12 volt alternator conversion. Both purchases can be avoided if the person goes to the tech manuals and tunes up the machine or troubleshoots the problem properly.

Another case in point, the parts manual helps you identify when a modification has been made and may keep you from buying the wrong repair parts.

And finally, trying to explain in detail how to wire a tractor or put together a transmission over a forum without the ability to reference a drawing will drive you more insane than you are now.
 
Thank you. Well said. Yes- everyone should have the basic information down first, then trying to solve an issue through a keyboard would be much simpler.
 
Good advice!!

When I was a GM salesman, we were once informed that something like 68% of the questions about vehicles called in to GM's Customer Service hotline could have been answered by the people themselves if they'd read their owner's manual.
 
But if they come here to ask I get a chance to visit with them.

If everyone buys the books who am I gonna visit with? (:~})

Gary
 
You are correct, but the I.T. manual I have assumes that I am a person with reasonable mechanical exiperence and does not explain some of the simple things. And then you have situations where you haven't a clue what a previous repair is about or why they did it..
SDE
 
(reply to post at 05:33:25 10/24/09)
Click to expand...
beside there a whole lot info here that you never find in a manual and a full set for a newer tractor could run in to the hunderds. i have some jd d,c. that run 150.00 each print was like 300.00 eash. so some one need a simple question answer through it out here some one well answer it
 
My 2 cents is buy the IT or whatever manual you like ,first, sit down and READ it,not just look at the pictures, then if there is something you don't understand start asking questions. It's much easier to explain something to someone if you have the book in front of you. A parts book with part numbers works wonders too.I've been working on this junk for over 30 years and nobody can remember everything.
 

"Please start advising the rookies to buy the Operators Manual, Service Manual, and Parts manuals for their equipment." You must be new around here?
 
When all else fails, read the directions!
Dad was a stickler on this and forced me to be. But it's amazing how many people don't or won't.
It should be a foregone conclusion that when you aquire a piece of equipment, you should try to get at least an owner's manual. Most manufacturers supply them free of charge. And for the older stuff they are available for a nominal charge. There's a whole industry dedicated to this. One would think that somebody need not be told to get the book on their equipment, But....
 
Goose, your right. I work at a GM dealer. Most questions would not be asked if people would read the manual provided with their vehicle. When someone comes in and asks a question I say, Let's go see what the owners manual says. Then I take them out to their vehicle, get out the manual and help them find the answer to their question.
 
To me the service manual is a must have item. I spent forty years working on standby gensets. Always had a manual with me. Because no matter how smart you think you are,sometimes you do forget. Cannot understand people that refuse to use a manual. I have seen more than my share of repairs that could have been avoided if the owner had just looked in the book.
 
That works well, except.... My '02 Trailblazer manual says to check the drivers door post for tire pressures, BUT, the sticker on the post has all the writing gone, it is pure white. I cannot find anyplace that can tell me the recommended tire pressures. My tire guy says 35, and they handle and wear fine, I would just like to find the recommended pressure somewhere. Greg
 
I buy manuals only if the dealer doesn't have one
or will not loan it out. When I can borrow or
download a manual, what I usually did at first
was ask a local copying place to copy it for
me. The pages where too thin and stuck together.
I was informed that paper came in different
weights. Typing paper is usually 20 lb. So,
I bought some different weights and got it
right. I bought a Lexmark X7675 printer and
now do them myself. This printer can handler
almost any weight paper.
 
Agreed. For example, one of my tractors has brakes that are adjusted by torquing the nuts to 20 lbs and then backing off one turn. While adjusting by guess would sort-of work, only the manual has the real information.
 
A lot of u do say things about manual but then that only helps if the person does buy one and #2 reads and understands what they read. I my self collect manual so I can use them to help others and it seems some times people need what the manual explianed to them in more of a novice type terms to be able to use them written words
 
What do you say when the manual and also the shop manual for the service shop does not cover it? I have a 1994 Olds Ciera that we cannot find the backup light switch that evidently is bad, I have the owners manual, shop manual and the transmission rebuild manual and it is not mentioned at all. The Tranny shop that rebuilds and replaces trannys could not tell us where that switch is. It is the automatic.
 
Dennis, you say start? I would say that about 90% of the posters that ask for help with something they just acquired are told to get a manual.
 
Old, how many manuals do you have? I am a manual colector and have if you would count the sales lit as manuals they would make a stack more than 8' high, have no idea how many is in the group but it is a lot. I have a lot I cannot find now.
 
Dennis, I am curious about your statement that these manuals may even save a marriage. Just how much time do you spend with that 8 N of yours ?
 
I agree that the manuals are very helpful but if some people had all three manuals for every piece of equipment, they would have a pretty high stack and a lot of loot stuck in them plus they would have to hire a librarian. :o) I have almost every manual for a 165 Massey Ferguson and that in itself is a pretty good stack of manuals and more reading than I have time for. I have a motorhome which came with a 3" thick packet of manuals and that is without even having the service and parts manuals which would add another 6" pile and a bunch of dough to buy it. Where does a person quit for each piece of equipment that he owns? I would love to have every manual but time, space and money prevents it.
 
i think the computers have spoiled people. they would sooner run to the comp. than sit down and think it out for themself... or they are real rookies.
 
Awe come on. Where's you're sense of adventure? Manuals are just padding for your knees when you're kneeling down to work on something!
 
When ever I tell someone to get the manual for there tractor someone on the list jumps all over me for calling the guy bad names or something like that. Hey using a manual id what the experiance well trained mechanic does.
Walt
 
Not everyone has all the manuals. A lot of the time they can ask on here and get the info they need. Then they can have their equipment fixed and working again in a lot less time than it would take to wait for the manual. No matter how good a manual is, it won't cover everything and there is nothing better than having someone who's had the same problem explain how to fix it. OEM manuals are usually the best. IT not so much. Dave
 
Personally, I wouldn't be without the manuals for the pieces I have. They keep me from asking embarrasing questions. They make great reading on a cold rainy day. rw
 
Hello Dennisinoklahoma,
In my experience, unless you are a good guesser?
Before you you stat operating................
YOU NEED TO READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!!!!!
Guido.
a6317.jpg
 
I participate a lot on the OldIHC.org truck boards, and I don't know how many times someone will say something to the effect of, "Manuals? We don't need no steenkeen manuals!", and then turn around and ask a question about the old canister oil filter [or something similar] that's shown in detail in the owners manual, the parts manual,or the service manual.

And, invariably, the same questions get asked over and over and over...by folks without manuals, of course. One IHC truck site advises questioners to "learn how the 'search' function works" before asking a question, but IMHO that establishes a negative attitude from the get-go.

I own the manuals for my trucks, and I refer to them BEFORE asking a question. Saves me a lot of embarrassment.
 
I have no idea how many I have. I started collecting manuals many years ago with one for cars and trucks and have lost a good many of them but still have a lot of them. I would say if I stacked them all up it would be at least 6 foot tall if not taller
 
(quoted from post at 05:33:25 10/24/09) Please start advising the rookies to buy the Operators Manual, Service Manual, and Parts manuals for their equipment. It will save the rookie a lot of time and frustration.

Man, I wish those of us who've been around for 10-12 or more years had thought of that; I guess we weren't thinking.......
Click to expand...
 
Manuals are definitely the best option but experience is extremely valuable also.
Owner a vehicle that required timing chain tensioners replaced at certain mileage the manuals first step 1- Remove engine & transmission.
II spent some time on a forum and people with lots of experience were able to provide a much better proceedure on the job.That being said the job would not have completed successfully without a shop manual to provide all the correct torque, tolerences and mechanical drawings.
 
In a perfect world....
Meanwhile, if it bothers you then don't answer their questions.
You make good practical sense but what your asking for isn't going to happen. Human nature dictates that people will use the tool that is easiest for the job at hand and nowdays that tool happens to be the internet and this forum and thank God and Al Gore for it.
 
I had a good friend copy his manuel for me 25 years ago. This machine and manuel would be rare by any standard. Well 15 years later i had to use the manuel and when i found it the pages were unreadable. The copys had gone bad and the paper looked fine.
 
I've been watching this thread all day.

Up to a point, I can agree with you, Dennis. I've always had manuals going all the way back to the big Chilton's books I got as a kid and (except for one that got away) still have. I wouldn't be without them. I keep an Owner's Manual, both the I&T and the IH service manuals, the Parts Catalog and any sub-component manuals to cover all my tractors.

There are several types of folks that show up looking for advice here. Some are looking to rebuild a motor and ask for every spec on the motor from ring clearances to torque on the rod caps. They need to go get a manual. Some of them will ask piecemeal. They'll get answers, but the third time they show up looking for valve spring dimensions and compression specs, they may get the answer to their question but they'll be told to "get a manual."

Then there's the one who just rebuilt a motor using his service manual and wants to know how much oil to put in and where. Of course, we'll tell him, but he needs an Owner's Manual to answer his maintenance questions as opposed to service/overhaul. In the case of the IH letter series anyway, the Owner's Manuals are written as if the the owner has just come into possession his first wheeled vehicle powered by internal combustion. It assumes no mechanical expertise and is much more detailed about things like brake and clutch free-play adjustments than the service manuals are about those and many other jobs. I was always tickled by IH's line in their service manuals about how the operation of an assembly "will be evident upon examination."

Which leads to the folks who have more manuals than experience, are in unfamiliar territory and can't make sense of the sketchy instructions. I don't believe anybody minds helping them. I recall a fellow who was having spark problems and had been advised to polish up and check the gap on his points. He was back the next day to report that he had been all over the inside of his distributor and didn't see anything "pointy" in there. We got him past that obstacle and he's done enough other work since that he's now a regular contributor, extending good help and advice to more people than he asks for for his own stuff.

The parts catalog is a wonderful thing for someone who is going to go all the way through a machine, or even just a tranny or motor, but I hesitate to send somebody out to buy one if they've got one project and the catalog page is available online. An example would be the guy whose tractor otherwise runs fine and always has, but who didn't note the orientation and order of things when he dropped the bull gear out of the final drive on a Farmall A to replace the bearings and seal, and couldn't get it back together. The online parts blow-up did the trick.

The newbies who admit that they nothing about it are the best opportunity for manual sales. Where do I check my oil? Where is the oil filter? What is that long rod dangling from my brake pedal -- should it be connected to something? Some of them wouldn't even imagine that the manuals are still available for a lot of these old girls, and I don't mind answering their questions, but still pointing them to the manual that they need to get and read.

And then there's all the stuff that isn't in the manuals that we who have encountered them can share. Like those pesky flat rings under the oil filter housing that have a nasty habit of taking on the appearance of being part of the base and have to be dug out if you hope to get a good seal with the new gasket. Or the two set screws that IH and maybe others put in in place of zerks on distributors to cure the problem of farmers pumping their distributors full of grease.

To your last point, we on the Farmall board are blessed to have BobM, who maintains a photo page with an assortment of wiring diagrams for different variations on the letters series (including 12v conversions!), and bermuda ken who maintains a library of wiring diagrams on more of the tractors on the site where he works at Carter and Gruenewald.

Yep, manuals are great, but so is experience and willingness to help others, and there's a lot of both here.
 
I totally agree with geting a OM and SM but you gotta remember, if everyone fixed everything on their own, these forums would be no fun HAHA -pat
 
Same thing here, my 2000 jeep cherokee's fuse diagram is suposed to be on the door, and the manual says look at the door, but i got no diagram on my door, what a poor design!
 
(quoted from post at 19:42:00 10/24/09) Same thing here, my 2000 jeep cherokee's fuse diagram is suposed to be on the door, and the manual says look at the door, but i got no diagram on my door, what a poor design!
Click to expand...

I've worked on some 2003 and newer GM Topkicks where the diagrams in the manual does not match how the truck is wired. To make make it even more of a challenge, the legend on the fuse panel cover does not match how the truck is wired! I ended up adding notes to the manual after I figured out how things really are.
 
I've spent 43 years now learning how to work on things and all I can say is in my experience the best written manual will only get you so far then your on your own. But, if I never tore anything up or broke anything, I would have been taking my stuff to someone else all these years. Which would be OK with me except I usually get the "mechanic" who knows far less about my equipment/car/truck than I do. THAT chaps my A$$.
 
For some things manuals are good but for others they are just information. A lot times nothing beats experience doing the job. Welding is an example. You could read manuals and procedures for months and you would have a lot of knowledge but until you actually burn a lot of rods, you wouldn't be any better at it. If an experienced welder worked with you and showed you how it's done, would be better than any manual at any price. Dave
 
To Chris in ND,

You asked how a manual can save a marriage.

Here is a scenario on how a marriage might have been saved with a manual. Don"t hold me to the exact truth of this story.

It is mid August, tempratures are 100 plus, tempers are just as hot, the humidity is drowning the locust.

Your brother enters his house drenched in sweat, his knuckles bleeding and he is holding a tractor part in his hand.

His wife sees him and says, "Don"t bring anymore grease into the house."

Brother graciously ignores her comment. "This thing broke when I took it out of the Jubilee. I am getting on the internet to ask why."

"Well don"t get grease on my keyboard."

After a few minutes he comes back into the living room. "The guys said the Service Manual has a warning that you have to back out the acorn nut before you remove this hydraulic lift mechanism or it will be damaged."

Spouse: "Did you get grease on my keyboard? I am tired of you greasing up my keyboard just to talk to those old cronies of yours. I told you to buy those manuals when you bought the tractor, the guy offered them to you for five dollars, but no, you were too cheap, you just slapped him on the back and said, "Real men don"t need no stinking manuals." Well, a real man would spend more time with his wife and not have ten tractors, all of which I might add are not running."

Brother: Shakes his head, and starts to walk off.

Spouse: "This had better not cost too much, we are still going to my family reunion in Death Valley next week, that is if you can tear yourself away from those precious pieces of junk you call tractors."

So, Chris, there you have it. A perfectly good marriage destroyed by the lack of a manual.
 
It puzzles me--the people that ask questions on
these forums, such as what weight of oil for
my tractor, or what is the gap to set the points,
when the answers are all in the manuals !!!
For gosh sake people--when you get a piece of
equipment, get a manual. THEY ARE AVAILABLE, even
for 70 year old stuff.
 
I used to do that all the time.. actually got blasted for giving the advice to buy a manual.

puzzles me why someone will buy a few thousand dollars of iron.. and be cheap about a few bucks worth of paper?!?

soundguy
 
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