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When is enough going to be enough?

Yesterday's Tractor Forums
A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Gas an diesel prices for the main thing on my mind this morning. When is enough going to be enough for the American people to stand up and do something about it.
 
Do what? Stop buying it? Use less of it? Have smaller vehicles?

What exactly do you mean?

I could say - tough! - We are already paying about twice what you are, so feel a bit better now?

RAB
 
What can we do?
Reducing our consumption where we can would be good.
Write your representative and tell them hurry up and develop alternate fuels would help too.
 
I know what you are saying. Up here in Canada Gas is orond $1.10 per litre. It takes a little over 3.5 liters to make 1 us gal.. The government on both sides of the border, are making too bloody much money on fuel taxes, and spending it stupidly, instead of spending it where it is supposed to. I know that the fuel companies also are charging too much money also for oil and gas products. What can we do about it. If you os I did it, we would be in jail.
 
Fuel prices aren't any higher now than they were 30 years ago when adjusted to all else.

Collectively speaking, we are spoiled in the U.S. (including me) and have done very little to plan ahead. You'd have to have your head in the sand to not see this coming long ago.

In 1918 the per-gallon price was $3.22 and in 1922 the price was $2.90 - when adjusted to today's dollar.

In 1981, average price of gas was $3.81 when adjusted to today's dollar.
 
I agree with RAB, what exactly is there to do about it? Petroleum is a limited resource, demand is going up, so price will also. Diesel is $3.81 locally.

The only rational thing to do would be to use less. Plan ahead on errands. Drive a smaller vehicle. Car pool. Don't use air conditioning in summer. Don't heat your house above 60F in winter. Not everyone can take advantage of all the savings, but everyone can do something.

The irrational thing to do is invade another oil producing country. Or make the government subsidize the oil we are already buying.
 
Well here is my 2 cents for what its worth. I havent checked this out to be fact but I have heard that the gas companies are still recieving subsadies from from the goverment, if they are then why with their record profits do they still need to be subsadized. Anyone know if this a fact or not?
 
I agree 100%. That's why I'm on 100% solar electric, 100% wood heat, and drive odd-ball cars and trucks that are easy to work on, and get better mileage than anything new.

My only issue is this. The varioius governments get a lot of tax money on the fuel - and squander it. If it was going to good use, I wouldn't complain. They give much away to help people buy fuel - which is an incentive NOT to do anything.
Many of the same people that say they need help - go off and buy/finance $50,000 trucks and $10,000 snowmobiles.

We need a long range plan - and I've seen none.
A huge chunk of that plan would be using less fuel - not finding more fuel. If the majority of indviduals were truly concerned - why are there so many people driving huge SUVs and trucks - that only use them for commuting?
 
They're making money for sure - but look closely at their earnings-statements. Government agencies are making much more of a "profit margin" on fuel. Huge profits posted by Exxon are due to the fact that it's now several companies put together into one.

There are many businesses in the United States with a larger profit-margin than the oil companies.
 
As the dollar loses value on the world market, everything will only cost more.


Why is it that when the nnalert run the state or country the economy seems to chug along ok, and might even gain some ground.

But when the nnalert get it it goes right back in the crapper?

It's their I got mine greed attitude.
 
nnalert AND nnalert no longer talk about rising gas prices. I find it totally ignorant of people.
 
If the nnalert get in power things will get even worse, they will punish the risk takers and achievers n take their money n redistribute it to the underachievers, then who will build the factories or buy big cars or yachts which creates jobs n stimuulates the economy ?????? grrrrrrrrrrr and if you think health care is expensvive now just wait until its freeeeee n big government n the nnalert n fat cat bureaucrtas take it over lol

Yall take care now

John T Conservative n free market kinda guy
 
YUP it's still happening.
Just this morning in the Washington Post it was reported that the house had passed a bill to cut off the oil subsidy inspite of a threat by Bush to veto any such legislation.
 
It aint gonna get any better in the foreseeable future. Once gas prices hit $10.00 a gallon, then maybe there will be conservation, alternative fuels, etc. Then maybe every sixteen year old won't be driving their SUV to school and around the town, and maybe the railroads and public transportation will have a revival.
 
Gee that would be real nice lets see 1.5 billion divided by 300 million that would about $5 per person now the lawyers will get half of that so the net after you spend 41 cents for a stamp would be $2.09. Now what am I going to do with all that money.
Every wonder who gets rich on these silly law suits well that's your answer.
Walt
 
Like most things do gas will finds its peak and then settle back a little and we will all get used to the higher price until the next time in about 20 years or so when it all starts over again. Just the way things are I guess. I paid 35 cents a gallon in 1963/4 and was happy to get it at that price at todays prices that would be around $3.50 a gallon.
Walt
 
John T,

Excuse me, but what party has been in charge for the last seven years? And what has happened to the national debt during those seven years?
 
I heard a different take on that bill that Bush wants to veto. The news program I heard it on said it was a bill to RAISE TAXES on these oil companies who are reaping record profits.
That all sounds fine and dandy until you realize the fact that corporations DO NOT pay taxes !!! Their customers do in the form of higher prices. So if you tax them more they will just raise their prices accordingly to cover the costs.

I also saw an article about how the Ohio government wants to start regulating all these outside wood burners. The Ohio EPA is getting involved. Stack height,fuel type,no cardboards or wastes, no coal ! all kinda regulations. So much for a cheap alternative heater.
 
Profit margin - in 2006 Exxon posted the largest profit margin of ANY company in ANY industry EVER, even after paying the outgoing CEO a severance package worth over $400 million! A "good" profit margin for a company runs about 10%. Exxon posted 33% and from all indications, it will be just as high for 2007.
 
We need a long range plan - and I've seen none.
"A huge chunk of that plan would be using less fuel - not finding more fuel. If the majority of indviduals were truly concerned - why are there so many people driving huge SUVs and trucks - that only use them for commuting? "

I agree with you on this point, I see a lot of "wasted" trips here, there, eveywhere. I bought a truck when prices of fuel were not bad prices. Now I am stuck with it, I cannot afford to buy a another vehicle and pay insurance on both. I still need my truck to pull trailers for work. But the people who whine most are the people who makes 5 trips to town on the weekends instead of getting what the need on the way home from work, they have to grocery shop, go to the mall, then go out to eat, the go out for entertainment. The local Walmart's parking lot is FULL on any given weeknd. If people were conerned about the price of fuel, the parking lots would be empty, they would stay home, learn how to entertain themselves.
Jim
 
i think the problem is that NO ONE is in charge! except maybe the people withthe moneyh to get passed what THEY need and it doesn't matter be it nnalert or nnalert
 
Profit margin - in 2006 Exxon posted the largest profit margin of ANY company in ANY industry EVER, even after paying the outgoing CEO a severance package worth over $400 million! A "good" profit margin for a company runs about 10%. Exxon posted 33% and from all indications, it will be just as high for 2007.
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Source?
 
And just what are we going to doing to do? We're in this mess because as a nation and a majority in their personal lives have overindulged,spent money they don't have and can't pay back which drove housing and energy costs thru the roof.Most jobs are either unproductive or even counterproductive gov't jobs and you only have to go to a couple retail places to see folks don't want to "earn" a paycheck anymore.We sow now we reap and its going to get alot worse before it gets better.It will be some very bad times ahead for those that have not prepared for the worst.
 
Oh, but I am Walt, and are you conveniently (as most of the uninformed do) forgetting what lead up to the cause of Carters problems? I've also read the history of Hoover and his "car in every garage and chicken in every pot" speech. As a matter of fact history was my ace subject. Loved it. And I strongly supect we starting to get a little flash back. But we'll come through this too. A lot of people will just be a little lighter in their bank account and personal property.
DD
 
Seems you don't look very closely at quarterly reports. Exxon has record receipts and gross income - but the profit margin for last quarter is 10.4%. There are many companies with making more from each dollar of sales.

Last year - Exxon 1st quarter - they got 9.4 cents profit from every dollar of sales.

Same quarter - Microsoft got 27.3 cents from every dollar of sales.

McDonalds hamburgers got 12.3 cents from every dollar.

General Electric kept 11.4 cents from every dollar.

Last year, profit margins for the following:

Disney Corp - 8.9 %
Mcdonalds - 12 %
Pfizer - 23.5%
Amgen - 29.8%
Microsoft - 31.6%
Occidental Petroleum - 29.6 %
3M - 16.9%
Wells Fargo - 20.4%
Exxon - 9.4 %

And what is the profit margin of a state or federal government taxing fuel that it has a zero investment in? Probably the highest of all.
 
Start growing more biodiesel, conserve energy, cut use. Its the only way to cut oil company profits.

I just find it irresponsible in my area anyways that we are still installing oil furnaces. We are a province full of trees and we can't get a good wood chip burner or pellet furnace incentive going? The gov't will pay me almost 2000$ to convert to natural gas, or a heat pump but won't give a cent to upgrade to a pellet appliance or wood fired applicance. They could create local jobs, drive demand for wood fiber that has crashed due to the high cdn $ etc.
 
That, and many other issues. Our entire infrastructure has moved away from the cheapest rail and ship transit. Miles traveled on highways delivering goods goes up every year.
How many people - on a whim - fly across the world and feel it's their right to do so?

And, it's not just the USA anymore. China is going to be in deep trouble soon. They are in sort of an industrial revolution, like we were 100 years ago. But - they don't have the almost endless resources to exploit - like we did. So, they are buying them. What will happen in the future when China decides it must have more space and resources? Well, if they have a high-tech military - I think we'll be in big trouble.
 
The problem with the profit list to me is I can do without using most of that stuff on your list so i could care less how much Disney makes (never been to d-land or d-world either and don't feel a burning need to go) but do need diesel and may need some drugs later on (been lucky and healthy so far). BUT there's a big difference in what amount you're percenting. Selling a tractor for $5000 that you had $3000 in to start with is a little different from 10.8% on $400 billion or whatever amount of gas and oil Exxon sold.
DD
 
You seem to be having a comprehension problem with that Wall Street article - I read it too, and I read it closely. It states Exxon's "production division" receipts were up 33% - NOT their profit margin. Total company profit margin was 10.4% and division profit margin was 14% - going by the Wall Street Journal article published Feb 1, 2008.

Is this the same Wall Street Journal you are citing?
 
Well, I couldn't care less about Disney, and I've never been to Disney Land either. But, what the heck does have to do with anything?

Are you saying that . . . since you need something - it's your right to have it cheaper than most of the rest of the planet?

Hey, it's 32 cents a gallon right now in Iraq - cheapest in the world. But, I think there's a down-side to living there.
 

There is no difference in them reaping huge profits from the underground reserves of oil they secured cheaply years ago and any farmer that was smart enough to hang on to his entire wheat crop making a killing today with $12-20 bushel wheat.

Now that demand has caused the price to rise, of course anyone that holds rights to reserves will be making good money.

Just like any farmer that has wheat or corn in storage to sell today will make good money.

That's the law of supply and demand and the marketplace forces at work.

I used to live next door to the family that kept the Griggs oil field in production years ago. When oil was cheap and the industry was close to busted - those poor kids ran around in tattered clothes and I saw one of them with no shoes and snow on the ground. They lived in a trailer house on the oil field that was barely fit to live in...

No different than the boom and bust in the railroads, farming, gold mines, timber, Chinese spice trade, etc, etc, that has happened for all of history...

Except this time - if we really are running out of oil, it may permanently put an end to everyone and their dog having his and hers Suburans, Excursions, Expeditions, plus matching ATV's and snowmobiles or whatever...

That's probably about how the whalers felt when they realized that career path was going down the drain... I guess the world adapted that time, too...


Howard
 
I too feel gas is in line with our other inflated prices. New houses then 25000, now 250000, new pickup 2500 then, 35000 now, Tractors? combines? land? News media picken on the fat kid.
 
What led to many of Carter's problems - then and now - is that he IS Jimmy Carter. Yeah, he inherited some problems just as every president has. Much of the "misery index" that was the highest In US history with Jimmy was indeed caused by his utter incompetence. He's cutbacks with our military and subsequent low moral for the military had a lot to do with the prolonged Iran hostage taking and many military blunders. Maybe he should of cut back on the Billy Beer, stopped hanging out with the Alman Brother's band, and tried his hand at leadership. And then there's the more modern-day "oil for food scam" he was deeply involved in.
I put Jimmy in the same boat as Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan.
And, yes, I read history too - and my reading goes far beyond some of the garbage written in secondary documents, newspapers, and text books.
 
It really does not matter what size company it is, they have to make a profit. They as any other business have to have money for unexpected repairs, and if they have a refinery problem are you goign to let them triple the price you pay for fuel so they can make necessary repairs for them to give you back the 10% profit they make? They can not make any kind of major repairs for a couple hundred thousand dollars, they need multi millions to make repairs.
Say they cut their profits, run a break even business, You would be mad if they told you they had to STOP production, they had a major failure and no money to repair it becasue you did not want them to make a profit??
I do not like the $3.68 cents I paid for diesel last night, but it is nice to pull in, pump my fuel, and not have to worry if I was there the right day, had to right last name, had enough of a fuel voucher to get fuel, anything you get with gas rationing. And if you ask oil companies to stop making a profit, that is what could happen.
Jim
 
If you look at all this as far back as the 50's and 60's it's always the same ! The fat cat money people are always on top and the average person is always on the bottom ! The one with the most money always wins ! The control has been taken away from the average person and if your not in control, guess what ? ( Your out of control! ) Now just think about that before you start cutting me down ect. So those of us average people scratch and dig each day to make it through life then when we are gone someone else fills our spot. As for the elected people, guess where they fit in ( sure not average people side of things ) They ALL say what they think you want to hear and do what is best for there pockets and there circles and I don't care what one elected you talk about ( today or years past they all stand on the money side of things and oil money is the top dog in the fat cat's circle ! So guess who's in control ! Just wondering if maybe this is how it was in history about the time of the big tea party ?
 
Some of my Amish former neighbors in Green county are probably having a good laugh now. For farmers they make a good example of a possible future in farming without using much fuel- but the city people better be prepared to pay for the food. If actual horse power is used on farms - figure a 20% reduction in fields available to grow human food, the horses will need pasture and hay ground. Darn, horse pulled cultivator and disc were sold a few years back. Still have a mower that could go back to long tongue, rake is wheel drive, wagons can get long tongue- guess horse can work on their own winter feed. RN
 
And why shouldn't they be making "record profits"? With inflation every year is a "record" even if you are essentially staying the same.

For instance:

People are now being paid record amounts from Social Secruity.

The average wage of an hourly employee is at record highs.

Gas is at record high price.

Cars are at record high prices.

Tax payments are at record high amounts in all tax brckets.

Schools are being funded at record high levels.


Putting it in big black lettering at the top of a newspaper seems to make it more shocking.
 
"I stumbled on this news item yesterday. click on the link"



So now its the oil company's fault it gets hot in the summer in Kansas City? Are they going to sue the consumer for buying fuel when these freezing temps drive the temp of fuel below 60 degrees?
 
(quoted from post at 09:25:00 02/28/08) Do what? Stop buying it? Use less of it? Have smaller vehicles?

What exactly do you mean?

I could say - tough! - We are already paying about twice what you are, so feel a bit better now?

RAB
Click to expand...

Actually the demand for it dropped lately and the prices were going down, so they reduced production to maintain their pricing, that is why the price jumped back up last week. It is pretty much a lose - lose situation, if we use less they just charge us more money to make up the difference.

You are paying about the same for the actual fuel as we are, but your goverment adds more tax to it, which is something that they could change if they wanted to.
 
Must not live in Ohio or Michigan both run by nnalert. It's so bad in Ohio we acted like congress and voted ourselves raises and can't understand why people got laid-off.
 
This sounds like the same conversation we always had on the OT board.

Can someone explain to me what talent a CEO can have, ( other than bribing congressmen ) that makes him worth $400 million per year.
 
4 people come to mind al gore, john kerry, bill clinton, and nnalert.
if bill had keep his pants on we wouldn't be in that sand box in middle east.
all bill wanted to do and did is play games and didn't pay attention to what was going on in rest of world.
how many U.S. citizens were killed under clinton's watch and did nothing. oh i forget he did have an aspirin bombed.
 
After Nixon and Ford F'd it up with high interest and unemployment. Not to mention trying to fix an election.
 
i think we american pople have been fed so much bs over the years that if we were told the truth we wouldn't know it.
the news media runs all over yelling the sky is falling, the sky is falling. we have heard that story so long when the sky does fall we won't know it until it is to late.
tree huggers don't help we should be building new oil refineries and power plants. we help the technology to clean up environment.
too many people are afraid of offending their own shadow.
drill more oil wells cut more trees turn the country into farm land.
 
Low military moral came from the Vietnam debacle. Reagan and the repugs made sure the hostages were released on the day Reagan took office as promised after Reagan made them some behind the door promises later found out by the rest of us.
 
Low military moral came from the Vietnam debacle. Reagan and the repugs made sure the hostages were released on the day Reagan took office as promised after Reagan made them some behind the door promises later found out by the rest of us.
 
I'd say one difference could be that the farmer actually raised the crop on his own land. The oil companies get a lot of oil from land owned by you and me.
 
You're right and I always thought something so critical to national security should be state owned. Owned by you and me and every citizen.
 
Hey, I wouldn't mind being rich - but I'm not, nor have I ever tried, and I got over it a long time ago. I've got a lot more than many other's on this planet.

You say . . .

"The fat cat money people are always on top and the average person is always on the bottom ! "

That depends on your perpective. What you are calling the "bottom" is probably a person that drives cars, lives in a heated home, eats very well, raises children in a safe place, etc. That lifestyle is considered "high living in some other parts of the world.

You also say . . .

"The control has been taken away from the average person and if your not in control, guess what? ( Your out of control! ) "

I don't think that is quite true. The average person never had power to start with - and that's a good thing. Do you really want "average" people in charge? And, lack of control that you never had anyway - is a lot different than having that power and using it with no restraints.

One more thing - you stated:

"Just wondering if maybe this is how it was in history about the time of the big tea party ?"

The Tea Party was a protest by people that didn't like their across-the-sea government telling them what to do anymore. When it finally became a full revolt - that battle was done by a very small percentage of the people - and certainly not the "average" ones. A few extraordinary people and their actions resulted in our country being created via the Articles of Confederation.
We again need a few extraordinary people to provide leadership so well meaning average and above-average people can follow. Whether it can be done with today's method of elections, I don't know. In fact, even if we got a really good president - he probably would lack the power to really turn things around.
 
What would it be adjusted from a price say from 1970 or 1973? How about 1995? You just picked a spike and if you remember nobody was happy then either.
 
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but can speak on what I've seen.

I was drafted in 70, and morale was very low then simply because everybody knew by that time that the Viet Nam was a waste of time. At that time, low morale - from my perspective, had nothing to do with any one president.

When Jimmy Carter took office, he let the military fall to pieces with sheer neglect. He acted as if having a strong military was a luxury and not a necessity.

Reagan did a lot that raised morale in the military and also in the civilian population. If he did make back-door deals to get things done - all I can say is "good." I wish Bush would make some now.

I will add though, that rewriting history proves nothing.
 
yabbut that tax is coming from the pump (consumer) and not from Exxon/Mobil.
Wonder how much tax E-M paid last year and to whom?
 
Iam not an economic analyst, but how many of you people that post about the rediculous profits of Exxon/Mobile for example think that there solely involved in the oil business? And these profilts are just from you pumping there gas.

Exxon/Mobile is more then just an oil company, they own or own shares of textile plants, plastic manufacturing companys, chemical companys, many other company's and around the world etc. They are a very diverse company. There profit is the total income from all of there assests. Not just the fuel they sell.
 
An unneeded war at that thanks to neocons.



Surprising how the neocons started the war but the nnalert voted for it, and continue to vote for it.
 
Friend called and said the store keeper told him the next load of gas will be 3.90 per gallon.price there is 3.50 today.Fuel oil will be the same price 3.90 when I can buy some mid march.If you use fuel oil buy it now.My last ss raise was 12 cents per day.Bush said today that he was unaware of 4.00 gas.
 
Reagan and the repugs made sure the hostages were released on the day Reagan took office as promised after Reagan made them some behind the door promises later found out by the rest of us.


=================================================

An unemployed governor from California did something that the president of the US couldn't do. Carter wasn't failure?
 
What do you think that war we're in is costing?
Remember the "Mission is Accomplished" by the Decider. Almost 4000 servicemen dead since he said that. Hal
 
Why do you do that?What was the pay in 1960?Whats the pay today?Wages have not increased 10 times,maybe 5 for most,a little better for a few,but most people dont make 10 times more than in the 60s.Next,the only thing saving Jimmy Carter being the worst president since Herbert Hoover is George Bush.He lies every time his mouth is open.It doesnt even matter if you are a nnalert or nnalert,this is not the way you run a country by driving the dollar to half of the worth it was.Both sides could use some help in this area,and Clinton was going in the right direction.What I dont get is Clinton did some real nnalert things about welfare and balancing the budget,and the nnalert hate him?Plus,if you think whats being done to the military is smart,you dont know what you are talking about.Bush is destroying the military.Yeah some of you are going to be mad when youn read this,but you need to get mad and impeach these hogs that are running the country and take it back.You all would rather gripe at me than do what you know is right and stand up.Whats running the country is crooks plain and simple,his old daddy was a crook,Nixon was a crook,Reagan was a crook,and LBJ was a crook,Carter was a moron,Its hard to say what Clinton was,but it was crooked.However nobody really cares if you are a crook and do good for the country,but if you have your nose stuck up the king of Saudi Arabias a$$ and ruin the country you are supposed to be running you need to be fired long ago.
 
Why do you do that?What was the pay in 1960?Whats the pay today?Wages have not increased 10 times,maybe 5 for most,a little better for a few,but most people dont make 10 times more than in the 60s.Next,the only thing saving Jimmy Carter being the worst president since Herbert Hoover is George Bush.He lies every time his mouth is open.It doesnt even matter if you are a nnalert or nnalert,this is not the way you run a country by driving the dollar to half of the worth it was.Both sides could use some help in this area,and Clinton was going in the right direction.What I dont get is Clinton did some real nnalert things about welfare and balancing the budget,and the nnalert hate him?Plus,if you think whats being done to the military is smart,you dont know what you are talking about.Bush is destroying the military.Yeah some of you are going to be mad when youn read this,but you need to get mad and impeach these hogs that are running the country and take it back.You all would rather gripe at me than do what you know is right and stand up.Whats running the country is crooks plain and simple,his old daddy was a crook,Nixon was a crook,Reagan was a crook,and LBJ was a crook,Carter was a moron,Its hard to say what Clinton was,but it was crooked.However nobody really cares if you are a crook and do good for the country,but if you have your nose stuck up the king of Saudi Arabias a$$ and ruin the country you are supposed to be running you need to be fired long ago.
 
Clinton was a miserable SOB.
He hid the unbalanced budget in short term bonds. There really was a national debt when he was in but he hid it pretty well.
He gutted the military.
He lied under oath.
And his economic nonpolicies set the stage for the crap we saw just as GW took office.
 
"What do you think that war we're in is costing?
Remember the "Mission is Accomplished" by the Decider. Almost 4000 servicemen dead since he said that. Hal "

You are an extremely ignorant person.
The Generals at CentComm needed President Bush to declare that Saddam was out of power and his military had been defeated. Thus Mission Accomplished. The reason was that MANY countries wanted to help us but not until he was out of the way. They didn't want to be involved in another Clinton-esque hit and run war as he did in the 90's for fear of reprisal by Saddam.

You should really do some research before you babble such ignorant statements.
 
We can start by not having our tractors in parades at tractor shows, also using more steamers for demos and limiting the small gas engines running times.
 
You know? About a year ago, I guess it was, dropped down somewhere around $2.60 or so for a short period, and I honestly thought about a 500 gallon tank to add to the 200, but... I'm an idiot. I'm going to have to look in the dictionary and see if they updated that picture of me. Every now and then I pull it off the shelf in the study...same high school picture of me that was in it when I bought it from the book store.

As it is, the only fuel station near me quit selling off road diesel, and I don't get it. Business was always good, diesel always turned over quick.
 
When the citizens of the US quit using more oil per person than any other group of people on earth. That's when.
Take a trip to England were everybody takes the train, bus, bike, motorcycle or a little four cylinder diesel weenier wagon of a car. That's what the US is going to look like in 10-20 years.
How did all that US oil get under those Arab's sand anyways?
China and India want that middle east and Canadian tar sand oil too.
$10.00 a US gallon for gasoline or diesel is only 10 years away.
 
The difference between the fat cats and the average people scratch and dig?
The average fat cat is usually better educated, works smart as well as works hard and invests some income rather than living paycheque to paycheque.
The only person to blame for being poor while living in the land of plenty is your own self.
 
Do you really believe that?
Where was the US after 4 years of Regan vs. after 4 years of Jimmy? Way ahead, that's where.
Do you want big government to take care of your life and needs? You can't have freedom and a nanny state.
 
Your blind alliance to a bleeding heart socialist nanny state indicates you are a child who wants him mommy to look after him.
 
(quoted from post at 14:49:50 02/28/08) You seem to be having a comprehension problem with that Wall Street article - I read it too, and I read it closely. It states Exxon's "production division" receipts were up 33% - NOT their profit margin. Total company profit margin was 10.4% and division profit margin was 14% - going by the Wall Street Journal article published Feb 1, 2008.

Is this the same Wall Street Journal you are citing?
Click to expand...

JDEmaris, Exxon will always make around 10%. The difference between them and "normal" companies is that if the price of the raw material goes up, they just pass it on. You don't see GM raising the price of their vehicles by $3000 to cover the additional cost of steel do you? Back when oil was $30/barrel (assuming no other inputs), 10% would yield $3/barrel profit. If the price jumps to $100/barrel, then 10% would yield $10/barrel. Not a bad business model. Of course they have record profits, you would too if you worked on a "cost Plus" price setting function and people were required to buy your product.

The other complaint that people have is, yes, the cost is relatively unchanged from previous decades, the difference here is that gasoline prices have almost TRIPLED in 6 years!!! It was $1.33/gallon in 2001.
 
You need to go get you some health care and see how screwed up it is now before you run your mouth about it.The worse hogs than oil companys are people that make pills.Just like allways the nnalert screw it up and the nnalert have to fix it.You have to be insane to vote for a nnalert or even allow them to get away with what they did now.
 
Tell you what,keep on believing that.When the nuclear bombs start falling and the missiles enter our air space it wont matter that its less than 3% of the people in the military.
Its just fine that these crooks just double the price of fuel?Just steal all the money people worked their whole life to save up?Now the other ways they steal your money is high cost of medicine,high cost of food,higher cost of everything.Now you want more pay to try and keep up?Oh no,and it will take nnalert to get that for people because your nnalert will try and cut your pay,or send your job overseas.nnalert will have hard time fixing that since theres only about 7% union now.You want to defend that?You know very well its wrong.
Those missles could come from France and England with your foreign policy that you like so well.Soon nobody will have anything to do with us as we are bankrupt and sold to China.Causing the price of oil to be sky high,and acting like a jerk in the world. DEFEND THAT.
 
Oh, Carter was a failure but not in the way you say. You can blame Reagan for a lot of what is going on in the Middle East. Befriend a country then stab them in the dark. And yes Reagan did make those deals he just couldn't remember.
 
Looks like you might think you are worth $400 million. Well here the first bid $0.02. Now suck my ........... never mind.
 
"I bet you never served in the military Idiot!"

General Tommy Franks did, IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is the one who explained what Mission Accomplished meant. It opened the door for many countries to help us. They were afraid of retaliation if we only shot a few of Saddams camels like Clinton did. But since W actually took him out they were glad to help.

Is General Tommy Franks a liar?

Have someone read you a book once in awhile instead of swallowing the garbage from your left wing web sites. You are an idiot.
 
Too much work to sort through all you wrote. I will say this though. If Bush is a liar as you say - tell me one thing that you know, for sure, that he has lied about. Don't cite newpaper headlines written for morons - cite some verified facts. Remember that a lie is an intentional act and in order to be a lie, the person has to know what is being said is not true. To make a decision based on information, that is later suspected to be incorrect - is NOT a lie.
Bill Clinton got caught, red handed, on video tape overtly lying to the House Judiciary as one example. He was disbarred for it.
 
Well yeah, it changed. In the late 1960s, there was gas around for 25 cents a gallon. So, was it overly cheap then, is it overpriced now, or somewhere inbetween?

I also could of bought a brand new Renault of Volkswagen car for under $1000 - or a new Corvette for $5000.

I like cheap gas - but the reality is - it just leads to spoiled people and extreme waste.

Same with household heating. Right now, it's 11 below zero F outside (real temp, not wind-chill). Many people are heating with oil at over $3 per gallon - and yet, many new houses are being built with the same heating systems. Those people will later whine about the cost of heating - instead of building with an alternative source.

My point about the 10% profit-margin for Exxon - is how often people don't understand what they read and then spout off about it - like a few people on this forum misquoting the Wall Street Journal. Politicians rely on this sort of thing. They create "bad guys" in the public eye and avert attention from the real issues.
There are many US companies with much higher profit margins than EXXON.

If someone has an argument - argue the genuine facts and not misleading headlines and/or soundbites.
 
"Time for a change draft dogger."

When faced with facts that repudiate your ignorant ramblings you switch to calling me a draft "dogger".

Is General Tommy Franks correct or are you?

One of you is lying.
 
What particular crooks are you referring to that have the power to double the price of fuel?

Also - you mention my "foreign policy?"

Did I mention anything about it?

You are ranting and raving and using nonsense and emotion as your core argument. If you feel you've got a legitimate argument, then use legitimate facts.

If you have some issue with something I actually said - and not something you dreamed up or just, sort of "feel" - I'm listening.
 
It's best just to let trucker 40 ramble away. He has some real serious issues with reality.

By tomorrow when his welfare check shows up he should be okay for awhile.
 
Mr Idiot, I may not be smart as you think you are, but there's a few things you should know. I've been retired from the Federal Government for 20 years and after working 43 years. I'm getting 3 retirement checks and if I die before my wife she will still get 2 of them. Plus I'm have my health care through the VA and through the US Government since 1960 and it covers my family too even if I croak. This isn't a recession sounds like a Depression thanks to George.
 
Thanks for the update on your numerous government pension checks.

But you avoided the question.

General Tommy Franks told a completely different story than you did.

Who is lying?
 
I didn't think you would have the courage to stand by your statement.

Do you have any other lies you would like to spread?
 
El Toro,
You, my friend, are one of the reasons that governments are having budgetary trouble these days. It's also the problem with the auto industry. Years of promising "golden" retirement packages with the assumption that the "golden goose" will always be there is catching up. 3 pension checks? Let's see: if you've been working for 43 years, I assume you're around 61. Your life expectancy is much greater than previous generations, so the taxpayers will be paying you those checks for MANY years. It's like the auto industry. They caved in to the UAW, giving 30 and out, so you've got guys under 50 retiring, with full health care and pension for LIFE. There's no golden goose big enough to fund all of that! I know people who milk the government retirement syste to get double pensions, city councils who vote lavish retirements for people. This results in police chiefs who retire here in Michigan and get double in retirement (over $150k) what they made on the job. Guys who retire and come back to work as consultants in their same job.

The problem is simple: Greed and everyone looking out for themselves and not worrying about the next generation or their neighbor down the street. This is also manifest in our legal system, where everyone thinks that every little bad thing that happens to them must be compensated for by somebody. And they always go after the deep pockets. That is why we have low-lifes like Geoffrey Feiger and John Edwards making their fortunes on every little slip and fall injury.
The solution is tougher, but it is reflected in many of the good opinions on this thread by JDMaris and the like: What are we doing, as individuals, to not make matters worse?

The UAW and managment who only care about their bonuses and retirement packages are what killed the domestic auto industry. Bloated government that gives little in return for our tax dollars is a monster that will not be tamed. The $400 million bridges to nowhere and other wastes of our tax dollars will not stop. After Katrina, Bush promised virtually an unlimited checking account to repair the damage, both to the infrastructure and his image. Both are still in the toilet. And we still spent billions with a city still in disrepair.

Sorry about the rant, but things won't change until the nation fixes its moral compass. This has to be done on an individual basis and cannot be legislated, dictated or coerced. It has to come from everyone looking in the mirror and saying "I will try to be a better human being today?" instead of "What can I do today to feather my own nest?" If we don't, I think we'll end up like the Roman Empire.
 
You could not buy a new car for 1000.00 in the 60s.My dad looked at a new jeep in the early 50s they wanted 1400.00.A bare 57 Ford cost 2 grand in 1957.One of the salesmen bought a Ford hard top with some extras for 2400.00.I remember that the Volkswagen advertised for 1795.00 When the first Corvette came out the average family income was 3200.00.I worked for a Ford dealer 56 57 59 and did new car prep.Shop rate was 9.00 per hour.My memory is failing at 70 but still rememember a lot about prices in the 50s.You may have bought a King Midjet for a grand but not much else.A new Harley 74 started a 1250.00.My friend had a Volkswagen,I never could get used to riding with my nose 3 inches from the windshield.
 
Apples and oranges comparison.
I'm talking about the people in my public school and high school classes.
How many went on to college, university, learned a trade,became professionals, built up a business. Vs. those who dropped out, were lazy or those interested only in instant gratification.
Most are bitterly scratching and digging out an existence at $10-15/hr. Vs a few of us that planned yesterday for today and put off partying, new vehicles and fun now.
The few of us growing up in the same county in same income groups and attending the same schools. Who did us the favour and gave us $100,000+ a year jobs?
The $30,000/yr people who were our fellow students are totally baffled how we succeeded. And they want to know who gave us everything. Looks you are baffled too.
 
"The other complaint that people have is, yes, the cost is relatively unchanged from previous decades, the difference here is that gasoline prices have almost TRIPLED in 6 years!!! It was $1.33/gallon in 2001"

You must be assuming that the demand for gas on a worldwide basis has remained the same.

What do you think happens to a commodity that has an ever increasing demand but a decreasing availability?
 
"The only person to blame for being poor while living in the land of plenty is your own self. "

Is Canada considered the land of plenty, eh?
 
I'm like this administration they only tell the truth when a lie doesn't suit. I don't give a f whether you believe it.
 
In other words you can't quite admit that you think General Tommy Franks is a liar.

Stop spreading your lies. You look like a fool.
 
I certainly could buy a new car for under $1000 in the 60s (if I'd been willing to spend the money). Maybe YOU couldn't - but I can't help that.

I lived seven miles from New York City in the 60s, in a vegetable farming area on the other side of the George Washington Bridge. Far enough away not to smell the city or the Hudson River, but close enough to have all kinds of cheap little foreign cars shipped in and sold cheap.
People would buy them new as oddities, and sell them for $50 a few years later. I bought many, just to take apart and learn mechanics - or to drive in the woods and beat to death. There were many that sold new for under $1000 - including two-stroke 360 Subarus, DAFs, Borgwards, Lloyds, etc.

My father bought a brand new 1959 Volkswagen in 1960 and paid $983 for it. I still have the records. It was impressive since it actually had a gas gauge - wherease our 1949 Volkswagen did not. The 49 came with a little reserve tank like a motorcycle.
Same year, I went with my dad to buy a left-over, brand new 1959 Ford 2 door "business coupe" with the 223 "Mileagemaker six", vacuum powered windwhield wipers, three-speed stick on the column, and power-nothing. That was 1960 and he paid the dealer $1650 cash for it - brand new. List price had been $2,103. It was built just a few miles from our home at the New Jersey Mahwah Ford plant - that is long gone now.

Our neighbor, sometime around 1961 bought two brand new "foreign" cars. One a German DKW with a two-stroke engine that he paid around $900 for, and also an Isetta BMW for around $800. The Isetta looked like a three wheeler, but it actually had four. Dealer list price on the Isseta
in 1961 was $1,063, it was supposed to be capable of 63 MPG, and a top speed of 53 MPH.

My first wife bought a brand new Renault for something like an advertised price of $999, and that was in 1965. It had a rear-engine, but not sure of the model - but I think it was a Dauphine.
She also bought a brand new Subaru 360 in 1969 for $1099.

Yeah, I'm well acquainted with the King Midgets, Crosleys, etc. but that is not what I am talking about.

Also, just for perspective - in 1960, dealer list price on a new Corvette was $3,872. Fuel injection for the 283 engine was $484 extra if you needed more power.
 
Frank takes his orders from Bush or the Sec of Defense when he was on active duty. I see you never heard of the "Chain of Command".
 
You can spin around all you want. I posted what General Franks said. You are saying that he lied and that President Bush told him to say that.

Read a book called Inside CentComm by Lt. General Mike DeLong if you want to find out the truth.

Or else you could continue to spread your lies.
My guess is that you will continue to spread your stories.
 
The crooks are people in stock markets.They doubled nearly tripled the price of a barrel of oil because of a hurricane,cant remember the name,before katrina.I know very well about this,my way of life depends on the price of fuel.What made me so mad was your dismissive attitude of 3% of the population being in the military.Also whats worse than that is they are doing what they are told to do.You were right about extraordinary people making a change,but its not the military,and its not because a small percentage fights wars,if there is a war because of crooked stock markets such as Enron,all the oil companys,now even grain,meat,everything else,and it comes from the USA,well thats wrong.We need to fix that before it gets out of hand,and its out of hand.If you were not saying that it doesnt matter because only a small percentage of people fights wars,then you need to remember that it was kids and old men at Vicksburg.If a nuclear war is fought here because of the crooks,you may be out there as well as all of us,men women kids,whatever with a gun,pitchfork,axe,and only 3% of us may be whats left.If you dont want that to happen,you stop the crooks from running the country.Its no small matter,stock markets need to be run right,not by greedy peoples whims.They seemed to have a little bit of restraint before the bunch in charge now.Whats changed I dont for sure know,but there is no restraint any more.
 
Well I dont get a welfare check.Reality issues?Short temper yes,reality issues no.I get so mad I cant think when I listen to nnalert apologising for Bush tearing up the country,even when they are sneaky about it.Bush,nnalert need to be first in line in war.They should all be over in Iraq if its so good,and smart for our country?They are disgusting,and if you apologise for them,and think that war is smart,you have the reality issues.Ever since I read where a dollar is worth 50 cents to an English pound I have been mad,and not getting any better,maybe madder.Dont it make you mad.
 
And another f#%&&*g thing,you,none of you have the right to blame the people of the USA for any of this,unless you are a trader in the stock market.Its our fault because we drive 70 MPh,its our fault because China and India want fuel.Its our fault because 40 years ago we spent the same percent of our pay for fuel.It was wrong then and its wrong now.If you want to give oil to China and India thats 2 Billion people.We only have 300 million.
Actually now that Ive come back and looked at this again its kind of interesting jdemarris what you have been saying,but you cant let it slide so easy.We have been wronged,all of us.Stock markets should not dictate how we live.We dictate to the stock markets how they are Allowed to operate.Everything is backwards.You have the foxes guarding the chickens.You have the inmates running the asylum,its not right to let this go.I see farmers in the future just as poor as they were,being paid twice the price for grain.Everybody else is going to do worse.Why,so the rich can have more?When is enough going to be enough?When we slap them back down.We need unions,we need a health care system that works and leaves out no Americans,no matter what any of you say.Only a jerk wants it to be like it is,its stupid,like Newt Gingrinch who wanted it this way.There are things you cannot let happen like that bridge that fell.You cannot import everything from China any more.The foreign policy cannot be run like Bush has run it,not talking to people.This country will be run right,or it wont exist any more.If you let the crooks sometimes known as nnalert run it,it will be Canada,America,Mexico New World Order and you will be a slave if they dont shoot you for being worthless.You cannot let the crooks get away with any of it,shipping jobs overseas,destroying all the union jobs,making this nothing.Selling out,ruining our country.You cant be dismissive of whats going on,and you cant apologize for it.You have to stand up and do something,farmer that cant agree,MR apology,nnalert Brainwashee,and you have to fight and fight and fight until it turns around.Its your duty as an American.Unless you want to give up and put your gray pajamas on and carry your mat around and pray to the east 5 times a day and live on a bowl of rice a day if you get that after they use you for a pack animal all day.There really is very little stopping that from happening to you now,and every day there is less keeping that from being your REALITY.China owns this country.
 
You may be right,get a lot worse.How will it be when you are not in the USA any more?What if its China,or Russia or whoever it is,you wont be worth anything.You wont own property,you wont have any money.They will take everything from you and kick you out in the cold.Then after you save money all your life,they take it all away from you.
Its about the same thing they are doing to you now just more escalation.
 
Reagan is way,way,overrated.Did a lot more bad than good.Not one,none of the nnalert have done much of anything that was good except for Teddy Roosevelt.Reagan with his trickel down economics?He gave working people a hard time,anybody that does that is no good.Now what you can get away with saying is that Reagan didnt let oil price nearly triple.Thats good.Didnt have 24 percent interest,thats good.Most farmers and independent truckers went broke while he was president,thats not good.Being fair it was Carters high interest that did most of the damage to them,but I remember farmers riding their tractors to Washington DC and truckers trying to strike,when there were real men that stood up,and they got nothing from good old Ronald Reagan and cronies Bush and the gang.Old Bush the first said if a farmer falls another will take his place.Now instead of farming 800 average acres they are farming 3000 and more.Why because 75% of them were broke in the 80s.nnalert never understood that farmers needed to be on the farm,or didnt care.20 dollar wheat wont fix that.
 
Dont worry about this guy El Toro,he just wants to try and make you look bad,but he is only showing how dumb he is.If Bush told that general to say that the sky was green he would have to do it,and anybody that was in the military knows it.
Most of whats on Tv especially what comes from the white house is a lie.Its called propaganda.The military is built on propaganda.It makes little difference what they say,the war is still wrong.
 
The people that fought in the Revolutionary War marched 8 miles in the snow barefoot.They cooked their shoes to keep from starving.After that it got worse.They even had a hurricane and a tornado that attacked the British when they took our Capitol.It was unreal.It had to be with supernatural help that this country was begun,and thats too important to throw away.
 
Bush lied about the need for a war in Iraq.Among other things.Too much work to answer what I wrote?What are you a school teacher?
Ill make it simple for you,Bush/Cheney lied about weapons,and other things about Iraq.They could have been involved in 911,the buildings were brought down by dynamite,especially building 7,no other explanation,and one of Bushs brothers was head of security of the towers,had them evacuated and put in the dynamite a couple of weeks before the planes hit them.Something like 50 percent or more now of the people in this country believe this.Thats fairly traitorous,then you have Enron,and a few more things,like stupid fluctuations in the stock market so more hogs can steal money.It gets longer of a list and worse,4000 killed,Pentagon hit by a missle,coverup,which all makes Nixon look like a good guy in comparison.
 
In my opinion, much of that is nonsense. You are one person. The government is a whole bunch of "one persons" put together in a group. Yet, you expect that group to be smarter and insightful than the people on their own? That's fautly reasoning. Zero plus zero - equals zero no matter how many times you try to mulitply it.

What have you done, one your own, as a work-around for these issues?

I've done plenty - I'll give you a list if desired. Will they work? I don't know. Can I prepare for everything? No, I cannot - but I certainly try all on my own.

If you have done nothing, on your own, to look ahead, prepare, cut down your energy use, etc. - you've got little ground to argue on.

If you've looked ahead, have no car payments, have no mortgage, have zero credit-card debt, have food stored, etc. - you're probably doing okay. Paying a lot of health insurance, taxes, and fuel - yes. But, that is inevitable.

I'm not trying to be mean-spirited here - and it seems you're having a bad day - but it's your type of narrow reasoning that corrupt politicians rely on. John Adams and Ben Franklin - back in the 1700s were correct. The average person should not be allowed to vote unless they prove their competency. They also agreed that all true democracies fail fast - because too many people want different things, and few have foresight.
That is why - at least so far - we are a republic, not a democracy. One we become a full socialized democracy - this country will fail.
 
Oh well, I've been a working person all my life, and I did fine while Reagan was president. So did many dairy farmers in my area who were able to get out of debt with the buyout program. I live in a rural farming area, and I don't know any actual working people that didn't like old Ronald.

Say what you want (based on little substance), but in my lifetime, I've never seen American pride and patriotism reach as high as it did under Reagan.

One of my favorite presidents in my lifetime - other than Reagan - was "give-them-h*ll" Harry Truman - and he was neither nnalert or nnalert.

In regard to Teddy Roovesvelt, he's one of my heroes - both as the nnalert governor of my state of New York - and as a non-nnalert president (according to his own words). That being said, he did some things as president, that the liberals would try to get him impeached for now.
 
I'm more impressed that they did it with very little public support. The majority of the colonists here did not want to make waves.

I don't see it as a supernatural event - more as incredible luck. It happens sometimes.
George Washington was regarded as an idiot early on, but later became a hero once the war was won.

The truth is - many of our founding fathers were, at the time, traitors to their own government. Had they lost, history would of been recorded quite differently. Don't get me wrong - I probably would of sided with the rebellion - but not sure if I would of had the guts and been willing to risk the lives of my family to join a war that seemed impossible to win. That took guts.
 
You state:

"Too much work to answer what I wrote?What are you a school teacher?"

No, I'm not a teacher. I've been a mechanic, house builder, and electrician most of my life.
I have, however, taught a few college classes. I choose to limit my time spent on foolish arguments with little substance.

You claim:
"Bush lied about the need for a war in Iraq"

So, you claim to have proof that George Bush knew for a fact, about not needing to fight Iraq? Where is your proof, you've cited nothing but unsubstantiated soundbites like a little pouting child.

I don't agree with all of Bush's policies - but - I believe he did the best he could with limited information. Most of the country was behind him at that time, but many now choose to whine about it because it wasn't a done-deal in ten minutes.

If you believe that Bush et. al. were behind the events of 911 - then you are simply an idiot. Sorry, nothing personal - I don't know you, and prefer to keep it that way.

And hey, I kind of liked "tricky Dick" Nixon. Yeah, he got caught doing some stupid things, but he also did some good things we rarely hear about anymore. He also wrote the "Checkers" speech that has given abundant colleges something to whine about, forever.
 
He's probably a Draft Dodger. He thinks everything written is the Gospel. You can tell how ignorant he is by using my handle. They should bar him from posting. That would jerk his jaw. Hal
 
"He's probably a Draft Dodger. He thinks everything written is the Gospel. You can tell how ignorant he is by using my handle. They should bar him from posting. That would jerk his jaw. Hal "

You are the one that brought it up but couldn't or wouldn't back it up. Now you don't have the guts to say General Franks is a liar so you say he is President Bush's sock puppet.

Don't pretend to pro-military when you are clearly not. You have denigrated General Franks, President Bush our Commander-in-Chief and others.

And then you crow about wanting to have Barak Huusein external_link as our next Commander-in-Chief.
I can't think of anyone in the military that would not want to spit in his eye.

Are you rooting for Barak Hussein external_link because he is promising more handouts for you?
Does your mouth ever get sore from sucking off the government titt?

And you have a strong ally here in trucker40.
He is one of the most confused, rambling idiots on the board. You two belong together.
 
I take all they give me since I earned them old Snoto. You are probably unemployed scrounging off your mom and dad or stealing from them. You're probaby on welfare. The only truth we know about Bush is he will leaving office. I still get those retirement checks even if they elect an a'''hole like you for president
 
" You are probably unemployed scrounging off your mom and dad or stealing from them. "

Actually I work 70 hours per week and employ six others. You can thank me for paying a ton of money in taxes so you can dangle from the government titt long after you are gone.

Don't ever talk shitt to those of us that pay your way.
 
You're an Impostor stealing someone's name. Must be the truth you being on welfare and stealing from your mom and dad. I doubt if one employee is employed by you. Keep paying those taxes so my retirement keeps coming in.
 
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