Why Mercury

[Bill Brox]

Hi,

I have many times wondered why they made a 4 cylinder engine for the Ford-Ferguson tractor out of a Mercury V8, and not a Ford V8. But then, I don't know if there was any difference between the Ford and Mercury engines at that time.

Can some of you learned ones enligthen me in this ?

Bill

 

[Leroy]

Size pure and simple. Mercury had that size engine to use parts from but Ford did mot use that size engine untill about 7 years after the tractor came out. The Mercury came out in 39 same as the tractor and had the 239 CU inch engine. At that time the Ford still was using the 136 or 221 CU inch engine for the 8 cylinders, the 6 cylinder was the big engine at 226 CU inches. Ford did not use the 239 untill after the war in the 46 models. These figures are out of a 1953 Chilton's service manual. One piston in 1953 was $3.51 and set of rings for all 8 cylinders was $8.15

 

[andyd4ntx]

Hello Leroy, could someone enlighten a "newbe" I have not heard of this before????? "They made the 120CU 4 cylinder engine for the Ford-Ferguson tractor out of a Mercury V8," This is news to Me what's the story behind this? Andrew

 

[Gaspump]

The story a Ford N engine is one half of Mercury V8 is the biggest load of tripe that ever came across the internet. Only a few parts interchange and they would be simple items that were also used in other FMC engines of the day. All major N engine parts were engineered and built for the tractor engine. This wierd rumor is even printed in one of the MBI books written by a supposedly "in the know" author.

 

[8N1949]

I agree with gaspump on this "half of a V8 Mercury engine" is way out in left field. If such a story is true, it would have been much cheaper and such to take the flat-head V8 and shorten the block to a V4. Besides it couldn't done by splitting the V block in half the way the block in designed. It would be a "slant four" block instead of the way the N series four cylinder is made.

 

[Jim SC]

Well, these responses sure cleared that up: yes, no and don't know. hahaha

 

[Anonymous-0]

Most guys are refering to the c.i. displacement, as it is just half the 239 v-8. Also the pistons are the same size as the 239. Some say it is a model a engine.Henry always did like to use parts that interchange.The top dog flathead v-8 was the 48 merc 59ab block. you could drill that baby to 301 if I remember right.Burnt a lotta rubber with those old motors in my day.

 

[grhouse]

Well, for my 2 cents, I am in total agreement with 8N1949 when they say that you can't take a V-8 and use half of it to make a straight 4 that is designed like the 8N engine is designed. I've got a couple of the old straight 8 engines from Packards and a straight 6 in a 36 Chevy that look like the straight 4 in the 8N. It would be much easier to cut the front end off a straight 6 or 8 than to split a V-8 in half. I think the idea is ludicrous.
Gene

 

[Old Texan]

Pontiac made a slant 4 back in the 60's think it was. It was half of the 389 V8 . Wife had one , had a cable type drive shaft and not enough power to keep it running at a stop light with the AC on.

 

[wisbaker]

So what Leroy is saying is the Mercury engine was made out of 2 2N motors? (Sorry I couldn't resist) I always assumed the 2N mnoter was a improved derrative of the Model A motor although it is smaller and the distributor is in a different location. If I remember they also made some pick-up trucks before and during the war that had a four cylinder that was close to the tractor engine

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 08:12:47 11/08/11) So what Leroy is saying is the Mercury engine was made out of 2 2N motors? (Sorry I couldn't resist) I always assumed the 2N mnoter was a improved derrative of the Model A motor although it is smaller and the distributor is in a different location. If I remember they also made some pick-up trucks before and during the war that had a four cylinder that was close to the tractor engine

Yes, Ford did build a "sedan delivery" type of vehicle that was powered with the Ford 9n/2n/8n 4 cylinder engine. The vehicle was targeted towards the larger city "in city" delivery services. From what I understand about it, the car was grossly underpowered and very few folks liked it.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:21:30 11/08/11) Well, these responses sure cleared that up: yes, no and don't know. hahaha

Maybe I can make it clearer, but Gaspump really already said it, no. I will add h3!! no. Anyone who ever has been in both engines or even slightly studied both on paper would know that there are so many differences as to immediately throw such a story out the window. Canted valves vs valves that are parallel to cylinder, different exhaust and intake paring, exhaust & intake on same side of cylinder block vs opposite sides, different head bolt arrangement & number, crankshaft vastly different, and the longer you look, the more differences you find. You can bury that old story!

As for the Model A, just the exterior view of that engine compared to the N engine ought to kill that story, but if not, going inside sure will!

 

[Leroy]

I do not understand a lot of these responses. The proto type 9N engine did use the 39 Murcury pistons and rings and probably but I am not sure about the connection rods. It was determined that the unsleeved block that worked well as a car engine would not hold up to field use so the simplest and easiest way to do things was make a thin wall sleeve and put in with a slightly smaller piston and rings. that made a small loss of power and to gain that back sone farmers removed the sleeve and put in the Mucery pistons but when they did that the block could not be resleeved or bored larger for a larger sleeve untill the thick wall sleeves came out for the late 8N and then that sleeve could be used to reclame that engine that had been junked by running those Mercury pistons in it. Farm catalogs used to list just the rings to fit the Mercury pistons for just the 4 pistons the tractor took. The valves I do not know about but NOBODY EVER WAS SAYING THEY CUT AN 8 CYLINDER BLOCK IN HALF. They just use the parts they had in designing that engine. If you would check you might just find a few more parts that are interchangeable, points, condensor, valve springs and main and rod bearings but all internal parts in a completely newly designed block. I believe the water pumps were the same. Running the Mercury pistons gave about the same as the overbore thin wall after market sleeve and piston set. The brake shoes for the 9N & 2N are same as for the ton and half truck from the 30's. Just some individual parts incorperated in a completely new block.

 

[8N1949]

Leroy, do you know there's probably sixty trillions auto parts that will interchange in other automobiles...GM, Ford, Chrysler, AMC, etc. Each automobile manufacturer just changed the part numbers to look like they had the "one and only" available.

Back in 1957, I bought a 1956 Chrysler 300C V8 engine for $125.00 from a Union, Missouri dealer that the "new" owner had just bought the car and drove it 40 miles when a rod came loose and did some "big" damage to the cylinder wall. The dealer told me the block was "shot" couldn't be fixed. I loaded the engine in a '56 Ford F150 and brought the engine home. We bored each cylinder out to the point to clear the cylinder wall damaged, and I ended up installing Caterpillar pistons...large dudes. Hauled the engine to a auto machine shop in Wichita, Ks machine shop were they stroked and balanced the engine. It registered at 590 rated horsepower. I sold the engine to a person that did drag racing. He told me it would do 195 mpg in quarter mile. I believed him.

So, auto parts can be mated to other engine if one knows how it's done.

 

[JMOR]

I see a problem here: "....so the simplest and easiest way to do things was make a thin wall sleeve and put in with a slightly smaller piston and rings. "

Why? Because the FO-4 and the Mercury car engine literature give exactly the same bore & stroke dimensions (not smaller for tractor) of 3.1875 x 3.75, which yield 119.7 cubic inches for 4 cylinders and 239.4 for 8 cylinders.

If a person removed the sleeves, he would need an 0.080 oversize piston or there about.

 

[Gaspump]

The pistons also fit a truck engine. Is the cam the same as a Merc, crank, manifold, head? It has already been said that most all car builders used similar designs and interchangable parts. Given these points alone how can one say it is a half of a Merc engine much less one cut in half.

 

[grhouse]

These answers are coming because the remark was made originally that, "why they made a 4 cylinder engine for the Ford-Ferguson tractor out of a Mercury V8". If it was make "out of a Mercury V8" then they did not simply use some of the parts that were interchangeable. That means that started with the Mercury.

 

[grhouse]

Now I'd like to see a car get that kind of millage!

"He told me it would do 195 mpg in quarter mile. I believed him."

Gene

 

[grhouse]

Actually, although most car builders might have used similar designs their parts did not always interchange. For example, Ford used 12 different cylinder block assemblies for their automobiles between 1928 and 1949. None of these will interchange with any other company except Mercury or Lincoln. Mercury only used 3 different assemblies during that time but the first one listed is in 1939. The information is similar for pistons. I'm using the Hollander 1920s-1948 Interchange as a reference. Gene

 

[Anonymous-0]

Yep Pontiac Tempest 4 cylinder with a four barrel carb and flexible drive shaft with the tranny part of the rear axle. Shift lever was mounted on the dash. Fun little car to drive and very economical.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:38:55 11/08/11) Yep Pontiac Tempest 4 cylinder with a four barrel carb and flexible drive shaft with the tranny part of the rear axle. Shift lever was mounted on the dash. Fun little car to drive and very economical.

haker/vibrator though! I don't know how they kept any brackets, accessories, etc. on that engine! The whole world pretty much puts ~2 liters as upper limit without balance shafts and that shaker was 3.2 liters!! and no balance shafts. :roll:

 

[8N1949]

I think when these automobile manufacturers tried to come up with a new engine...such as a slant 6 or 4 cylinder, they failed to take in consideration the problems.

I remember my father-in-law bought a 1960 Dodge Dart with a slant six. I rode in this car several times and it was a horrible engine setting at a stop-light. I called it "Shake-Rattle-and Roll" The vibration was horrible. My father-in-law couldn't keep motor mounts in it, most bolts/nuts would vibrate loose somewhere on the engine.

 

[36 Coupe]

The Model A. engine and the 9n are totally different engines.Any good mechanic knows that.Ford did use the tractor engine in war time in pick ups and sedan deliverys.

 

[36 Coupe]

The Ford and Mercury 59a block were the same engine.Used in Ford and Mercury cars 46 to 48..My 36 coupe has a 46 59a engine in it.With high compression heads and dual carbs the 36 showed its spare tire to 49 53 Fords.Ran 15 seconds in the 1/4 mile.A new 55 Olds beat the time by .5 seconds.The 36 crapped on 50 Oldsmobiles every time in the 1/4 mile.Been there done that.

 

[36 Coupe]

The 39 Mercury engine had a 3 and 3/16 bore.It was the same engine used in Ford big trucks.Ford car engines had a 3 1/16 bore until 1942.

 

[Bill Brox]

I am sorry, I did not mean to open up a worm of cans, or was it the other way around...

I have read several places about this making a 4 cylinder out of a Mercury V8, so I assumed it was true. So much for assuming.

But anyway, where does the limit go for such a thing. It is possible to use one engines technology in a new one,... means they can use all the research for the old engine, shape of combustion chamber, ports in the head, compression ratio, cam lobes... but it does not need to look identical. Or, you can use the entire design and just cut something off... or add, if that is the purpose.

I have gotten many answers here...

To me it looks like it is not a V8 cut in half, like the Scouth engine. But, maybe it is more like using some of the Mercury V8 engine research and ideas they had for that engine.

Who knows, I assume perhaps the folks who worked with that engine is now under the thurf, at least the experienced fellows that were in charge for the design.

Bill

 

[rnorum]

You could be right, but my memory is different an older I think if I still have a memory.
39 to 41 trucks, cars and 3 tons were 21 stud 3 1/16 bore, some of the 40s had steel sleeves and the block marked next to the manifold, then 42 to 48 was a 24 stud with 3 3/16 bores like 59A, 59AB,59L truck. Cars were all the same but truck had valve reliefs in the block (between the cyl and valves. All these engines had the bell housing on the block. Then in 1948 the truck only had the 49-50 motor in them ( first one without the bell housing)

 

[Bill Brox]

My first American car was a 1965 Dodge Dart station wagon with the 170 cu. in slant six.

It used little fuel, and is the most quiet engine I have had in any car up to this day. And, the engine what shaked the least...
A few yards from the car I could almost not hear it running.

So, different experiences.


Bill

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:47:11 11/09/11) My first American car was a 1965 Dodge Dart station wagon with the 170 cu. in slant six.

It used little fuel, and is the most quiet engine I have had in any car up to this day. And, the engine what shaked the least...
A few yards from the car I could almost not hear it running.

So, different experiences.


Bill

So, different experiences.".........or just different memories! Out of 22 engine configurations, from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8 cylinders, including vertical, horizontal, slant, inline, V(various valley included angles), there are [b:28c9b0e332]only 3[/b:28c9b0e332] configurations the have [b:28c9b0e332]no [/b:28c9b0e332]primary or secondary unbalance and [b:28c9b0e332]no[/b:28c9b0e332] primary or secondary couple moments, which means that these are as smooth as you can design. All others need special vibration isolation measures and or extra rotating unbalanced shafts to control vibration. So, please stand for applause, the [b:28c9b0e332][u:28c9b0e332]INLINE 6[/u:28c9b0e332][/b:28c9b0e332], the [b:28c9b0e332][u:28c9b0e332]90 degree V8 dual plane crank[/u:28c9b0e332][/b:28c9b0e332], and the [b:28c9b0e332][u:28c9b0e332]60 degree V8 single plane crank[/u:28c9b0e332][/b:28c9b0e332] [/u]

 

[36 Coupe]

The 95 hp truck engine came out in 1939. The block was marked 99T.The 95 hp was an option in the big trucks.The 95 hp crankshaft weighed 6 lb more than the 85 hp.The Mercury block was marked 99.I had an engine from a 39 mercury in the coupe for several years.The truck engine had a lower compression ratio than the car.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

Yes, Ford and Mercury engines were "different" at "that time" (1939). Ford V8 powered automobiles up until 1946 were outfitted with 221 cu in V8s commonly referred to as "85 horse". The famous 239 cu in V8 appeared in 1939 to power Ford's brand new Mercury line. Mercury was intended to meet competetive car lines such as Olds, DeSoto, etc., and was offered with the 239 cu in "95 horse" engine from the get go. Ford autmobiles did not receive this powerplant until 1946.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

I unintentionally ommitted the 136 cu in V8 used in certain Ford cars from 1937-40. these were "60 horse" gutless wonders that could not get out of their own way. They had the flat trunk lid so were easily recognizable. It was used as a model by Bob Lutz while he was at Chrysler to design the PT Cruiser.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 12:07:37 11/10/11) I unintentionally ommitted the 136 cu in V8 used in certain Ford cars from 1937-40. these were "60 horse" gutless wonders that could not get out of their own way. They had the flat trunk lid so were easily recognizable. It was used as a model by Bob Lutz while he was at Chrysler to design the PT Cruiser.

 

[GVSII]

(quoted from post at 06:34:17 11/08/11) The story a Ford N engine is one half of Mercury V8 is the biggest load of tripe that ever came across the internet. Only a few parts interchange and they would be simple items that were also used in other FMC engines of the day. All major N engine parts were engineered and built for the tractor engine. This wierd rumor is even printed in one of the MBI books written by a supposedly "in the know" author.

DITTO!