3 point backhoe hydraulics

[Ohtuckian2025]

I have a 1968 Massey Ferguson 175 with a Perkins diesel engine. It has two hydraulic circuits on it. I recently bought a Grizzly BH105 backhoe for it. Apparently, Grizzly has gone out of business so I can't get help from them. I was told that I could just hook up the hydraulic hoses from the backhoe to one of the tractor hydraulic circuits and tie the lever back. When I do that it just deadheads. I know the hydraulics work because I have a front loader on it and it works like it's supposed to. The front loader uses both hydraulic quick disconnects, so I have to unhook the curl cylinder and use that circuit for the backhoe. Can someone guide me on how to hook up the hydraulics on an old tractor?

 

[TractorTech]

It sounds like, from your description, you have a closed center hydraulic valve on the backhoe and probably was mounted on a John Deere tractor with closed center hydraulics. If so, the oil doesn't circulate through the valve like it would on an open center valve. You have an open center system on your loader.
If you activate a circuit like the bucket or stabilizer on the backhoe when you activate the curl circuit, will that circuit activate?
Also, if you can work out the backhoe valve, you are better off running the loader output to the backhoe valve input in a circuit, but if the backhoe valve is a closed circuit style, I'm not sure offhand if you can use it. I do have a backhoe valve that would work and sell for $75 + shipping.

 

[used red MN]

I have a 1968 Massey Ferguson 175 with a Perkins diesel engine. It has two hydraulic circuits on it. I recently bought a Grizzly BH105 backhoe for it. Apparently, Grizzly has gone out of business so I can't get help from them. I was told that I could just hook up the hydraulic hoses from the backhoe to one of the tractor hydraulic circuits and tie the lever back. When I do that it just deadheads. I know the hydraulics work because I have a front loader on it and it works like it's supposed to. The front loader uses both hydraulic quick disconnects, so I have to unhook the curl cylinder and use that circuit for the backhoe. Can someone guide me on how to hook up the hydraulics on an old tractor?

Hello Oh.., welcome to YT! Did you try to operate the hoe when you had the tractor valve held in position? If you did or if you do try it and the BH functions work but return the hydraulics to dead heading when not operating then this would mean the BH valve is set up for a closed center hydraulic system like many JDs have. The older Ferguson system is open center. Otherwise a photo of the valve on the hoe and the connections to it may be helpful to clue us in on what you may have going on.
Edit: Sorry for the echo I was typing at the same time.

 

[miangus]

You might want to consider getting a PTO operated pump. I have a three-point backhoe on a 275 MF and it has a PTO pump with the traditional open center valves on the hoe.

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

It sounds like, from your description, you have a closed center hydraulic valve on the backhoe and probably was mounted on a John Deere tractor with closed center hydraulics. If so, the oil doesn't circulate through the valve like it would on an open center valve. You have an open center system on your loader.
If you activate a circuit like the bucket or stabilizer on the backhoe when you activate the curl circuit, will that circuit activate?
Also, if you can work out the backhoe valve, you are better off running the loader output to the backhoe valve input in a circuit, but if the backhoe valve is a closed circuit style, I'm not sure offhand if you can use it. I do have a backhoe valve that would work and sell for $75 + shipping.

Can you send me a picture of it?

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

You might want to consider getting a PTO operated pump. I have a three-point backhoe on a 275 MF and it has a PTO pump with the traditional open center valves on the hoe.

I've thought about that, but I'm sure a PTO pump would be somewhat expensive.

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

Can you send me a picture of it?

It sounds like, from your description, you have a closed center hydraulic valve on the backhoe and probably was mounted on a John Deere tractor with closed center hydraulics. If so, the oil doesn't circulate through the valve like it would on an open center valve. You have an open center system on your loader.
If you activate a circuit like the bucket or stabilizer on the backhoe when you activate the curl circuit, will that circuit activate?
Also, if you can work out the backhoe valve, you are better off running the loader output to the backhoe valve input in a circuit, but if the backhoe valve is a closed circuit style, I'm not sure offhand if you can use it. I do have a backhoe valve that would work and sell for $75 + shipping.

Can you tell from the pictures what I have? Also, there are 3 lines to the control valve. I assume one is the supply, one is the return but what is the third one for?

 

[rrlund]

I'm guessing that somewhere on the valve, there's a closed center relief valve that you can take out and replace with an open center. I can't tell you where it is, but reasonably sure that's what you'll have to do. Even if you went to a PTO pump, you'd have to change it. It'll be a good sized flat looking hex plug.

 

[used red MN]

The answer to this question(s) would be helpful.

Did you try to operate the hoe when you had the tractor valve held in position? If you did or if you do try it and the BH functions work but return the hydraulics to dead heading when not operating then this would mean the BH valve is set up for a closed center hydraulic system

If the hoe functions work when the above test is applied that tells you the BH valve is set up for a closed center application. If the hydraulics continues to dehead when operating the BH levers then some how the fluid flow to the BH valve is wrong.
Edit to add: Were the hoses you connected to the tractor remotes loose free ended hoses on the BH valve that would indicate they were the connections to the previous tractor it was installed on? Point out which hoses they are in your photo of the BH valve bank.

 

[TractorTech]

Can you tell from the pictures what I have? Also, there are 3 lines to the control valve. I assume one is the supply, one is the return but what is the third one for?View attachment 140362

On the tractor question, one is supply, I believe the one coming out of the front of the cover and the back one is a return. The third line into the lift cover is a power beyond.

I can't see on the pictures, but Grizzly may have used a valve that you can take a plug out to convert it to an open center system.
Cross valve in link is an example. I don't know what Grizzly used. Maybe a name on the valve.

Closed Center Conversion | Cross Mfg.

To convert an open center valve, remove the short conversion plug and replace it with the closed center plug as shown.

crossmfg.com

 

[Jim.ME]

Your tractor appears to have the Massey Ferguson auxiliary hydraulic package. That is a second internal pump just to supply that valve, and your picture is the two spool valve for that system. (There was a single spool valve option, instead of the two-spool one, for that package.) The tractor hydraulics are open center systems. The slotted "screws" you see in one of your pictures are to change the valves from single to double acting, depending on the remote cylinder being used. The third line is a line to carry any spool leakage back into the transmission housing.

Pictures of how the hoses are attached to the couplers for that valve might be helpful.

Do you have the manuals for your tractor?

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

The answer to this question(s) would be helpful.

Sorry about that. When I hold the tractor control valve back and try operating ANY of the backhoe levers in each direction, it doesn't do anything. It's like it's not getting any fluid.

 

[Jim.ME]

Sorry about that. When I hold the tractor control valve back and try operating ANY of the backhoe levers in each direction, it doesn't do anything. It's like it's not getting any fluid.

Need to see pictures of how the hoses are hooked to the couplers (or where they are plumbed to, if there are no couplers) on the tractor.

Get back a bit, not just close up

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

I'm guessing that somewhere on the valve, there's a closed center relief valve that you can take out and replace with an open center. I can't tell you where it is, but reasonably sure that's what you'll have to do. Even if you went to a PTO pump, you'd have to change it. It'll be a good sized flat looking hex plug.

Are you talking about having a relief valve on the tractor control valve or the backhoe control valve? I assume since you mentioned a PTO pump, you're talking about the backhoe valve body?

 

[used red MN]

Sorry about that. When I hold the tractor control valve back and try operating ANY of the backhoe levers in each direction, it doesn't do anything. It's like it's not getting any fluid.

Then it is likely not the fact that it is set up as closed center valve that is the problem. Are you sure the type of tips it had of the hoses are the correct ones that match the “pioneer type” on your Massey? Have you double checked unplugging them and plugging them back in to see if they just may not be seated in the remote sockets properly?

 

[used red MN]

Are you talking about having a relief valve on the tractor control valve or the backhoe control valve?

To rrlunds question/ statement in reply 8, per your answer to my reply 9 this is not your issue.

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

Your tractor appears to have the Massey Ferguson auxiliary hydraulic package. That is a second internal pump just to supply that valve, and your picture is the two spool valve for that system. (There was a single spool valve option, instead of the two-spool one, for that package.) The tractor hydraulics are open center systems. The slotted "screws" you see in one of your pictures are to change the valves from single to double acting, depending on the remote cylinder being used. The third line is a line to carry any spool leakage back into the transmission housing.

Pictures of how the hoses are attached to the couplers for that valve might be helpful.

Do you have the manuals for your tractor?

Could you elaborate on the slotted screws statement. The front loader uses a double acting cylinder to curl the bucket and 2 single acting cylinders to raise and lower the bucket. I only see one slotted screw on the front of the tractor's contol valve. Is that what you're talking about?

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

Then it is likely not the fact that it is set up as closed center valve that is the problem. Are you sure the type of tips it had of the hoses are the correct ones that match the “pioneer type” on your Massey? Have you double checked unplugging them and plugging them back in to see if they just may not be seated in the remote sockets properly?

I compared them to the hoses for the front loader and they look the same to me. I guess if nothing else, I could try swapping the hose ends and see if that is the problem, but the hoses go in and pull out with a quick tug.

 

[Ohtuckian2025]

Need to see pictures of how the hoses are hooked to the couplers (or where they are plumbed to, if there are no couplers) on the tractor.

Get back a bit, not just close up

Here are some more pictures. I hope this helps!

 

[used red MN]

What is going on with this hose? Take a photo of it from above or better yet unplugged. It takes a lot to kink a hydraulic hose completely shut but stranger things have happened.