203 front pump shaft removal

[Dbpgoat]

Hello, the hydraulic pump in my 1961 workbull 203 bit-it while back dragging the other day the pulley and pulley mount also broke. I took the front of the tractor apart and have the axle on a table. Ordered a new pump. Couple of questions:
How does the pump shaft that go s thru the axle come out? Does the keyed coupling that is on the pump side screw out? And how, which way?
Axle pin moves freely in the large captured housing. But where the pin passes through the axle is solid. I see no play here and bearings of captured housing seem great, no play. Should it be ok as is?
Pump shaft play in axle is pretty loose and sloppy, I believ this is correct?

 

[Stan Coryell]

I have a 202. Is your pump front mounted and driven off the crank? If not, I am not familiar and what I type won't be of any help.

Is this what you have? See picture.

the hydraulic pump in my 1961 workbull 203 bit-it while back dragging the other day the pulley and pulley mount also broke.
I don't understand. Which pulley and which mount? I am guessing you pulled the pump and not the drive shaft, and the drive shaft beat itself to death (and the hub). If this is correct, the drive shaft needs to be checked for straight or replaced.

How does the pump shaft that go s thru the axle come out?
The drive shaft for the pump is threaded (left hand) into the hub bolted to the crank.

Does the keyed coupling that is on the pump side screw out? And how, which way?
No the coupling is welded/ brazed/ pinned to the drive shaft. Take a piece of shaft and weld a nut to it, use that with an impact wrench to unscrew the drive shaft (LEFT HAND THREAD!)

Axle pin moves freely in the large captured housing. But where the pin passes through the axle is solid. I see no play here and bearings of captured housing seem great, no play. Should it be ok as is?
Owners Manual calls for 0.002- 0.008 of end play. Other wise sounds right.

Pump shaft play in axle is pretty loose and sloppy, I believ this is correct?
The drive shaft for the pump should not contact the pivot pin or axle. The hub bolted to the crank has rubber bushings between the bolts and the crank, this acts as a flex coupling between the crank and the pump. These bushings are readily available. PN/ #1400022M91

An Owner's Manual and Parts Book would be very helpful. If you don't have both, you really should.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dbpgoat]

It s a little different then the diagram, seems the crank pulley side end of pump shaft has a machined shoulder that mates to a bearing pressed into the axle pin. The other side is the pump end with the female keyed coupling. If that coupling is welded I could be screwed . So for clarification both ends would be left threaded. If that coupling won t break free I ll have to grind the shaft shoulder I guess. Found a crack on the axle mounting cradle. Try to weld that up today.

 

[Stan Coryell]

Post some pictures of what you have.

This is what you should have.

 

[brooktre]

They made the pump side female coupling a few different ways. My books show the shaft and coupling as one piece and also as separate two pieces. I made a tool to remove the shaft. Measure the hydraulic pump shaft and then get a bolt with the same diameter and length. For the length I used a bolt that had a smooth shaft (part above the threads) that was the same length as the hydraulic pump shaft after cutting off the threads. I then had a grove cut in the bolt to hold the key. My shaft is removed with a large ratchet or breaker bar (counter clockwise).

 

[Dbpgoat]

See pic, be surprised if it comes thru. Site won t let me put even small pics on

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 18:51:59 10/09/22) See pic, be surprised if it comes thru. Site won t let me put even small pics on

Go to the TEST Forum and make a few posts attempting to post pictures there. The site has some spam filters that block most new users from posting pictures or links until they have more than 5 posts on record. Once the pictures will post there, try again here. You may need to log out then back in after reaching more than 5 posts.

Here is a link to the TEST forum.

Test Forum

 

[Dbpgoat]

Can t post pictures on this site keep being told I m using foul language. To bad cause in this case a pic is worth a thousand words. I am using the destroyed pump shaft as a tool but if turning counter clockwise I ll thread the new crankshaft pulley adapter coupling on the opposite side and I imangin it ll crank that sucker on for good. How else can I capture the other side?

 

[Jim.ME]

I thought those shafts had left hand threads so they will tighten as the engine turns. If they are left hand thread, the shaft would turn clockwise to remove it.

 

[Dbpgoat]

I think you hit the nail on the head, the shaft is LT threaded to accept the crank pulley adapter. . But on the other end. The side where the pump is, inside the keyed coupling which is buried inside the axle pin it look like the coupling is threaded onto this end of the pump drive shaft also, has to be because the othe side of the shaft on the pulley side has a machined shoulder. I think I m gonna just grind this shoulder off. Only purpose I can see for it is as a dust dirt seal because the shaft can t come forward into the pump.

 

[Dbpgoat]

Ok think I can post pics noe

 

[Dbpgoat]

captured shaft with machined shoulder this is the pulley adapter side…. Can’t go through axle pin that way without grinding.

This post was edited by Dbpgoat on 10/09/2022 at 04:45 pm.

 

[Dbpgoat]

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto98211.jpg[/img:c99b938bbc]


This post was edited by Dbpgoat on 10/09/2022 at 04:41 pm.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 19:18:13 10/09/22) I think you hit the nail on the head, the shaft is LT threaded to accept the crank pulley adapter. . But on the other end. The side where the pump is, inside the keyed coupling which is buried inside the axle pin it look like the coupling is threaded onto this end of the pump drive shaft also, has to be because the othe side of the shaft on the pulley side has a machined shoulder. I think I m gonna just grind this shoulder off. Only purpose I can see for it is as a dust dirt seal because the shaft can t come forward into the pump.

If you make an adapter as brooktre suggested, you should be able to thread the shaft out of the crank pulley adapter and get it out in one piece.

 

[Dbpgoat]

Coupling pump side appears to be threaded onto shaft?

This post was edited by Dbpgoat on 10/09/2022 at 04:38 pm.

 

[Dbpgoat]

the crank pulley adapter disintegrated in three pieces when the pump failed

 

[Jim.ME]

I can't say but it looks like some of those shafts the pump end coupling might be a press fit on the shaft as they don't show a pin, key or threads in them or on the shaft. If it is free of the engine, it should pull out the front (towards the pump).

 

[Jim.ME]

I can't say but from the parts books it looks like on some of those shafts, the pump end coupling might be a press fit on the shaft as they don't show a pin, key or threads in them or on the shaft. If it is free of the engine end coupling, it should pull out the front (towards the pump).

 

[Dbpgoat]

thanks Jim, I ll grind that shoulder off on the pulley side and pull the shaft out. When I put it back in I ll need to find some sort of dust seal to fit between the axle pin and the pulley coupling adapter

 

[Stan Coryell]

That shoulder isn't machined. When the pump locked up, the shaft drove itself deeper into the hub bolted to the crank. Grind it or cut it off, the drive shaft is
trash.

I don't think the shaft is pressed onto the pump. It's likely a key or spline. I'm guessing the new pump is 3/4" with a key.

The pump locked up. Do you know why? I would guess something got in there that wouldn't pass through. How's the filter/ fluid look? I would get that sorted out before another pump locks up.

Below is a link for a 202, the parts should be the same.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/store/model_parts.cgi?SearchArea=Massey-Ferguson&&md=202&cat=Hydraulic%20System&r=mcats

The picture you show with the ruler: the pivot pin should have between 0.002" and 0.008" of endplay.


This post was edited by Stan Coryell on 10/09/2022 at 07:09 pm.

 

[clarence julian]

i had the sam trouble years ago I have a 202. the shaft end that screws into the engine is left hand thread.
I made a tool that fits the coupling on the pump side with a key , so you can take it out when you need to like to put a belt on

 

[Dbpgoat]

Filter was slightly mucky but not crazy, full fluid change 2 seasons ago and machine dosent operate much.
(
The picture you show with the ruler: the pivot pin should have between 0.002" and 0.008" of endplay.)
It moves a lot more then that, so things up.

 

[Stan Coryell]

Do you have a better picture? It looks like 1.125 of end-play? Like I said, it should be 0.002" - 0.008" (from memory, but close). Did someone cut the axle down? I wont be home until late tonight, I'll try to get a picture then. This could explain the pump failure.

This post was edited by Stan Coryell on 10/10/2022 at 09:35 am.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 20:35:25 10/09/22) thanks Jim, I ll grind that shoulder off on the pulley side and pull the shaft out. When I put it back in I ll need to find some sort of dust seal to fit between the axle pin and the pulley coupling adapter

No dust seal or anything else in that area. The engine and pump are mounted to none moving parts and the axle pin can move. The shaft needs to be free within the hole of the axle pin, so that any movement of the axle pin is not imparted on the pump shaft.

 

[Dbpgoat]

Yup, I ground down that shoulder and the pump shaft cME RIGHT OUT. it s original shaft but I have to agree with the other poster it s trash, but for those that want to know the coupling is threaded and keyed.
The captured cradle on the axle pin certainly moves over an inch , seems that the steering links would take all that force. Back dragging with down force would have had the front wheels off the ground and I guess pulling on the hydronic pump .. it s keyed so I m not sure what the failure would be but. For sure the cradle on the axle pin should be set in a location and not move this much putting these loads on the steering.

This post was edited by Dbpgoat on 10/10/2022 at 05:14 pm.

 

[Stan Coryell]

I went out and looked at mine. The pivot pin should be tight in the axle and loose in the Axel Support Assembly. The pin is captured by the Axel support (in the rear) and a snap ring in the front of the Axel Support.

Did you take the bolt out (pin, lock) of the center of the axle? This keeps the pivot pin located in the axle.

Is the snap ring still in the front (where the pump mounts)?

Endplay get set after everything is back together. The shims, pin lock, pivot pin, and bushings are still available from AGCO.

This is the best picture I can get of mine. You can see the gap between the axle and the support Is about 0.040". I hope to have some time over the winter to replace the bushings and set the endplay (when I put the "new" motor in).

 

[Dbpgoat]

Thanks Stan, I forgot about the snap ring I removed early on. There were two concave washer/springs? And a thicker concave washer/plate just under the snap ring also. One of the thin springs is really worn paper thin. I m thinking theses were spacers. Waiting on new shaft and I ll put it all back together again. Any idea of crank pulley torque value?

 

[Stan Coryell]

Check:
Washer, rear, (4) P/N 183028M1 for wear.
Washer, front, (4) P/N 185894M1 for wear.

Concave Washers are the shims to adjust end play. Shim kit: P/N 183240M1
These are available from AGCO

Did you order the bushing kit to go with the new hub? P/N 1400022M91, These are available from many sources.

As for torque, they are just 3/8 bolts.

 

[Dbpgoat]

Looking for torque of the actual crank pulley to crankshaft big bolt

 

[Stan Coryell]

It's not listed in my service manual. What
size/ pitch bolt?