574 with D239 fuel issues

[Southy]

Hey yall, new to the forum and new to diesels. Lots of seat time wrenching on all kinds of gas engines otherwise. Sorry to post yet another fueling thread but I've read quite a bit of posts and I'm still stumped.

TLDR I ran it out of fuel, I am able to get it to run for a few seconds if i start it with ether with switch on RUN, then it revs up and dies.


Got the tractor about a month back, the PO drove it to my place about a 45 minute drive and it was in service before I got it.

I had it for a week and ran out of diesel cause the fuel gauge was off and I didn't do the responsible thing and fill it the day before. Since running out of fuel, it has given me quite a bit of issue getting it reprimed and now I'm stumped.

Cracked the return line where it Ts into the fuel filter and back to the tank, got good flow with no bubbles that I could tell. Was able to start it on ether and it was pulling diesel. Ran it for about an hour choring around the yard, then it died on me and I haven't been able to get it to stay running since.

Edit. First time I cracked open the drain plug on the filter housing I stripped the threads on it putting it back. It didnt leak fuel externally, it only leaked under vacuum, I could see bubbles coming up the glass bowl from the screw. So I disassembled, drilled it out and tapped it for m10x1.25 and put thread tape on it. No more bubbles and no external leak.

So far in tracking down this fuel issue, I have bled the lines in sections starting at the filter to Injection Pump line. Then the lines going to the injectors at the injector. Then the outlet of the injectors, and again at the return into the filter housing. I have also verified tank is full and the crossover line is clear. PO says they replaced and cleaned out the tank about 6 months prior to my purchase, so hopefully not much chance for debris in there.

Same story. Starts on ether, runs about 30 seconds, revs go way up then it dies.then I need to reprime it.

I got a replacement Cav dual filter assembly in the mail today to replace the one i fixed and get new elements while im at it, going to get it in tomorrow. While I'm in there I'll check the Orings on all the fittings on the high pressure lines coming out of the injection pump. I'll also try splicing in some clear line before the filter housing to see if there's a leak upstream from there.

Anything else I should check? Thanks for the help. Any other info I can provide or pics or anything, just let me know.

 

[Southy]

Couple other tidbits. One of the lines that I separated, the seal at the fitting was like a hard white plastic. Not sure if it's supposed to be a hard durometer seal or if it's just a whooped Viton o-ring. I bought a pack of viton orings and I'll replace all the crusty ones as I work my way through.

Also, the mechanical lift pump has been bypassed by the PO and it's running off an electric one. Spits fuel just fine but I haven't checked for bubbles at that point yet.

Last thing, I just noticed when I was poking around, the petcocks for the crossover line are both wet after sitting for a while. Is there an o ring there, or should I just try thread sealant, or go ahead and replace all 3 of em?

 

[Mrfred54]

I would unhook the line that comes from the tank at the filters and let it drain fuel for about five minutes and see if it slows down at any point. Maybe there is some debris in the tank or the fuel cap is air locked. You said you have an electric lift pump. Those tractors never had any type of lift pump from the factory. I would replace all three petcocks at the tank

 

[JimB2]

Welcome to YT, you said your 574 had a lift pump and it had been replaced by an electric pump?
Look at the photo below of a CAV/DPA injection pump, does you 574 have an injection pump like the one below?
Early production 574s had the CAV/DPA injection pumps with a lift pump on the right side, later production models had the Bosch injection pump without the lift pump. Also some pump shops had a conversion kit to convert back to the CAV/DPA when the Bosch pumps broke and parts could not be found to fix them.

Please report back on make of injection pump as the bleeding procedures are different.

 

[crsutton81]

Couple other tidbits. One of the lines that I separated, the seal at the fitting was like a hard white plastic. Not sure if it's supposed to be a hard durometer seal or if it's just a whooped Viton o-ring. I bought a pack of viton orings and I'll replace all the crusty ones as I work my way through.

Also, the mechanical lift pump has been bypassed by the PO and it's running off an electric one. Spits fuel just fine but I haven't checked for bubbles at that point yet.

Last thing, I just noticed when I was poking around, the petcocks for the crossover line are both wet after sitting for a while. Is there an o ring there, or should I just try thread sealant, or go ahead and replace all 3 of em?

You'll have to excuse the nastyness as this one has been in the field, but there is a seal, oring, or washer at every connection point on these filter systems that utilize the glass bowl on the bottom. It is usually a good idea to replace all of them when a filter change is done. The last several filters that I have received from my CNH dealer, the oring that goes between the filter and the glass bowl has been a bad fit, and can leak. These tractors did not come with a mechanical fuel pump. The fuel supply is gravity fed. To be sure you have a good flow, remove the upper metal line that supplies the fuel to the filter base and blow back into the tank with an air hose to ensure there is not an obstruction partially covering the exit port in the tank. Another rare possibility could be that the line where it leaves the filter housing to supply the injection pump could be collapsing internally as it is a braided rubber hose. I'd replace the fuel tank shutoff petcocks if they are leaking. Hope this helps.

 

[Mrfred54]

Learn something everyday. Have never seen a 574 with the cav pump. Thanks JimB2

 

[JimB2]

Learn something everyday. Have never seen a 574 with the cav pump. Thanks JimB2

My Dad almost bought an early 574 with CAV/DPA pump in the late 1960s, I also saw one in the UK when I was visiting several years ago.
If you look at the IH 54/74 Series, UK manuals you will see the CAV Fuel system option.
Link: https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/121219-d239-674-engine-manual-pdf/

 

[Southy]

 

[Southy]

The right aide above the oil filter, there was a mechanical lift pump. It was bypassed and now there is an electric pump, top left.

Injection pump looks like the cav/dpa. Dual filter assembly and injection pump on the same side.

 

[Southy]

View attachment 72280
You'll have to excuse the nastyness as this one has been in the field, but there is a seal, oring, or washer at every connection point on these filter systems that utilize the glass bowl on the bottom. It is usually a good idea to replace all of them when a filter change is done. The last several filters that I have received from my CNH dealer, the oring that goes between the filter and the glass bowl has been a bad fit, and can leak. These tractors did not come with a mechanical fuel pump. The fuel supply is gravity fed. To be sure you have a good flow, remove the upper metal line that supplies the fuel to the filter base and blow back into the tank with an air hose to ensure there is not an obstruction partially covering the exit port in the tank. Another rare possibility could be that the line where it leaves the filter housing to supply the injection pump could be collapsing internally as it is a braided rubber hose. I'd replace the fuel tank shutoff petcocks if they are leaking. Hope this helps.

I posted pics of the right side of the engine, showing the lift pump. I will disconnect the electric one and blow back to the tank and then put a section of clear hose there to see if there is a leak upstream and get back.

 

[JimB2]

Yes, definitely a CAV/DPA injection pump another quick check, see the photo below of fuel filters, note the NAPA Gold on the right that it has a sold top with the opening around the outside. In some applications the upper sealing O-ring can become displaced a slip into the opening around the outside restricting fuel flow.
Free download of IH, UK Manuals for the IH 54/74 series tractors can be gotten at the link below.
Link: Link: https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/121219-d239-674-engine-manual-pdf/

Do you know how to bleed a CAV/DPA injection pump?

 

[Southy]

Welcome to YT, you said your 574 had a lift pump and it had been replaced by an electric pump?
Look at the photo below of a CAV/DPA injection pump, does you 574 have an injection pump like the one below?
Early production 574s had the CAV/DPA injection pumps with a lift pump on the right side, later production models had the Bosch injection pump without the lift pump. Also some pump shops had a conversion kit to convert back to the CAV/DPA when the Bosch pumps broke and parts could not be found to fix them.

Please report back on make of injection pump as the bleeding procedures are different.




View attachment 72286

Just watched a video on bleeding these pumps here

The top bleep screw never once let diesel out no matter how long I let the pump run or cranked the engine. Started to feel crazy cause i hadn't seen anything confirming it was actually a bleeding screw til now. Like I said though, it did run for about an hour after the initial bleed

Yes, definitely a CAV/DPA injection pump another quick check, see the photo below of fuel filters, note the NAPA Gold on the right that it has a sold top with the opening around the outside. In some applications the upper sealing O-ring can become displaced a slip into the opening around the outside restricting fuel flow.
Free download of IH, UK Manuals for the IH 54/74 series tractors can be gotten at the link below.
Link: Link: https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/121219-d239-674-engine-manual-pdf/

Do you know how to bleed a CAV/DPA injection pump?



View attachment 72352

I have seen that issue with the filter, and I was very careful assembling them to ensure the right o ring was in the right place. One is slightly larger and goes on top. No leaks, not rolled over, seems to be installed fine. Will replace entire assy with an aftermarket one soon regardless and go from there.

Found a video here on bleeding,

The upper bleed screw never let out any fuel. Bottom one shoots it out like a hydraulic leak when it's cracked open haha. I did not check to see if the upper hole was letting fuel after it started running though. I'll try rebleeding before any disassembly.

Will the electric pump alone move diesel through the entire system, or do I need to crank it to get fuel to the injectors?

 

[Southy]

Sorry for the weird double reply. I thought it deleted before replying to the other message.

 

[Mrfred54]

This is very interesting to me, especially where the lift pump is located on the lifter cover, a tin cover at that, huuh

 

[Southy]

This is very interesting to me, especially where the lift pump is located on the lifter cover, a tin cover at that, huuh

I certainly don't know much about these tractors, but all the pictures and videos I've seen of this engine, never seen this particular fuel system setup. Dual filter on the left? Weird. Mech lift pump with a Cav pump? Weird.

 

[Southy]

Can anyone comment on the fuel hard line seals? Are they supposed to be soft buna-n or viton rubber o rings? Or are they supposed to be some type of high duro rubber or plastic or something? I'm not familiar with fuel line compression fittings.

 

[JimB2]

Not weird at all for our British friends as they preferred the CAV Diesel fuel system owned by their other famous electrical company Lucas as the Bosch pumps were German built even though the D-239 engine was built by IH in Neuss Germany.
The British also preferred the Perkins Diesel engines as they were built in Peterborough, UK, this is the origin of the IH 475 with a Perkins Diesel engine and built in IH Doncaster with the same rear end as 454, 474, 574, 674. Very rare tractor in North America.

Youtube video was good for bleeding CAV fuel system, we usually found if you cracked 2 of the 4 injector lines at the rear of the pump it would bleed and start. Easier to crack lines at the rear of pump than at the injectors.
Another problem I have found on the CAV fuel system is a small piece of debris from the tank getting in the hole in the banjo bolts restricting fuel flow.
Also that fuel line with the braided wire mesh over the rubber, over time the rubber inside will collapse and restrict fuel flow.
With the electric fuel pump, just turning ignition ON should start the pump and fuel should flow. The tractors with the lift pump on the opposite side from the filters and injection pump was a two man job to bleed the system.

DO NOT CRANK STARTER FOR TOO LONG or it will over heat and burn out, let it cool down between long cranking times.

Good luck
JimB

 

[JimB2]

All the IH ones that I am familiar with that IH used on their Bradford and Doncaster build tractors used banjo bolts with copper crush washers and brazed on banjo connector and flared fittings like a brake line. On the British Massey Ferguson tractors with Perkins Diesels and CAV system they used the type with the rubber seal like the Youtube guy was complaining about.

 

[caterpillar guy]

I would start by bleeding fuel from the shut off valves at the bottom of the tank. Then if fine go to the line coming from the tank to the filter. If fine again go to the next filter, if good there then look at the banjo fitting going from the filters to the pump. It should be across the front of the engine to the filter base. If this flows then try at the pump. IF this has the bosch pump there should be a bleeder right on top of the pump. Also if the bosch pump there is no lift pump just gravity flow . Do make sure those valves will flow fuel at the tank those are known for beng full of crude from everything settling at those places since they are sort of a repository for junk to collect due to the shape of the tank . Could also check the cross over tube/line since if the fuel is very low it can run out on one side and still have fuel if plugged. The second line on the left side is a return line from the pump. These are pretty easy fuel system to bleed out . Sorry for you having those junk glass bowls on the bottom of those CAV filter bases. Our 574 has the spin one and the 674 has those glass junk or did have till my brother mad a couple aluminum bottoms for them. Has been much better since then about 10 years now. Had tractor running after a filter change and one just broke setting there running. They were gone after that. Would not take much to convert to spin ons with just the base change I believe.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Not sure how anybody could buy a 574 in the late 60's when they were not even out till 1970 according to Tractor Data. Maybe an earlier model like a 54 series or 44. I've never seen one with a CAV pump on it but then I have not seen every one made either.