574 with D239 fuel issues

[Southy]

Can't believe I forgot to put in my status update.

When the PO installed the electric lift pump, they used rubber hose to jump from the pump to the existing metal line. You can see in the Pic here

The hose is a bit too short for the run, and it is not quite kinked, but I can imagine when It gets warmed up it softens and closes up a bit more.

I removed that hose and replaced with a longer clear hose because it's what I have handy. Also allowed me to see fuel flow from the pump.

While running just the electric pump after disconnecting the line, lots of bubbles and a bit of an air pocket I had to work out to the injection pump. Continued priming up to the 4 fittings on the braided line coming off the top of the injectors, and then at the fitting connecting the return line to the filter assy. All with the electric pump.

I have come to find after all this tinkering it will only start with ether, the run/start/stop lever all the way up in run, and 3/4 or more throttle. I haven't been able to get fuel to flow past the IP with it anywhere in the middle of the range.

Started the tractor, 5 seconds of cranking with constant ether, and then it catches diesel and runs. Cracked the bleed screws again on the IP, and the injector farthest from the return hose, got some bubbles and then it was clear.

After about 5 minutes, another big air pocket developed in the clear line I installed. I massaged the hose, cleared the air pocket, checked the upper bleed screw on the IP again, no air came out. Started getting small bubbles in the clear line. Checked hose clamps and they were tight. Fuel shutoff knob was wet. Snugged the fittings. Still getting bubbles. Ran for another couple minutes then died. Tried bleeding at the upper IP screw and no fuel just air.

Came out this morning and the fuel shutoff on the tank was wet again. I'm going to order the 3 petcocks, the 90 for the return to the tank, and look for a 3/8npt to 5/16 barb so I can run rubber hose all the way on the low pressure side, in case the line itself is failing.

Anything I might try before spending 100 dollars on brass fittings?

 

[JimB2]

Try loosening the filler cap on the fuel tank incase the vent line is plugged. The electric pump is definitely sucking air from somewhere.
The CAV pump has no special START position like the Bosch pump, make sure the SHUT OFF lever is going to the full ON position and 3/4 throttle is good for first start.

 

[Janicholson]

Can't believe I forgot to put in my status update.

When the PO installed the electric lift pump, they used rubber hose to jump from the pump to the existing metal line. You can see in the Pic hereView attachment 75419

The hose is a bit too short for the run, and it is not quite kinked, but I can imagine when It gets warmed up it softens and closes up a bit more.

I removed that hose and replaced with a longer clear hose because it's what I have handy. Also allowed me to see fuel flow from the pump.

While running just the electric pump after disconnecting the line, lots of bubbles and a bit of an air pocket I had to work out to the injection pump. Continued priming up to the 4 fittings on the braided line coming off the top of the injectors, and then at the fitting connecting the return line to the filter assy. All with the electric pump.

I have come to find after all this tinkering it will only start with ether, the run/start/stop lever all the way up in run, and 3/4 or more throttle. I haven't been able to get fuel to flow past the IP with it anywhere in the middle of the range.

Started the tractor, 5 seconds of cranking with constant ether, and then it catches diesel and runs. Cracked the bleed screws again on the IP, and the injector farthest from the return hose, got some bubbles and then it was clear.

After about 5 minutes, another big air pocket developed in the clear line I installed. I massaged the hose, cleared the air pocket, checked the upper bleed screw on the IP again, no air came out. Started getting small bubbles in the clear line. Checked hose clamps and they were tight. Fuel shutoff knob was wet. Snugged the fittings. Still getting bubbles. Ran for another couple minutes then died. Tried bleeding at the upper IP screw and no fuel just air.

Came out this morning and the fuel shutoff on the tank was wet again. I'm going to order the 3 petcocks, the 90 for the return to the tank, and look for a 3/8npt to 5/16 barb so I can run rubber hose all the way on the low pressure side, in case the line itself is failing.

Anything I might try before spending 100 dollars on brass fittings?

I would use reinforced diesel rated fuel line, not "rubber" though not under forced pressure, reliability is dramatically important, and it doesn't kink. Jim

 

[Southy]

I would use reinforced diesel rated fuel line, not "rubber" though not under forced pressure, reliability is dramatically important, and it doesn't kink. Jim

Sorry for the oversimplification. I was just using it to differentiate between the OEM lines which are all steel or braided.
The stuff that was in there is low pressure black 5/16 fuel hose. No internal weave or reinforcement. Id be replacing the existing hard and soft lines from tank to lift pump to filter inlet with that dual weave, reinforced fuel injection hose. Overkill since it only will see ~10psi but it's only like 4 dollars more for the 25 foot spool compared to what I described above.

 

[Southy]

I had the thought of just doing AN lines tank to IP. But quality fittings and hose get expensive fast.

Hopefully it doesn't get to that point.

 

[Southy]

Try loosening the filler cap on the fuel tank incase the vent line is plugged. The electric pump is definitely sucking air from somewhere.
The CAV pump has no special START position like the Bosch pump, make sure the SHUT OFF lever is going to the full ON position and 3/4 throttle is good for first start.

I was under the impression all of the IPs used a 3 position lever. Good info, that explains it.

Gasket on the filler cap is cracked up something bad. I was worried that may be an issue but the tank is supposed to be neutral pressure right? So it shouldn't matter if the seal is bunk or the cap is loose.
Is the vent line one of the vertical pipes inside the tank? Think mine has two there. Would it hurt to spray air into that pipe from the fill hole on the tank? Or will It blow any potential obstructions into something else?

 

[RedMVa]

Cap gasket doesn’t hurt anything, yes you can blow thru those lines. You just need to start at tank for flow and work forward, good flow to electric pump, then on down the line. Not sure how the return from injectors is plumbed, to a tee? You had all lines loose, could be the air bubbles were circulating back since you had everything loose and so much air. Once flow is established from tank I would run flow from electric pump into a container and put slight pressure into tank to make sure the air is purged

 

[JimB2]

I was under the impression all of the IPs used a 3 position lever. Good info, that explains it.

Gasket on the filler cap is cracked up something bad. I was worried that may be an issue but the tank is supposed to be neutral pressure right? So it shouldn't matter if the seal is bunk or the cap is loose.
Is the vent line one of the vertical pipes inside the tank? Think mine has two there. Would it hurt to spray air into that pipe from the fill hole on the tank? Or will It blow any potential obstructions into something else?

Is it the original filler cap that looks like an umbrella? Several fille caps have been replaced with ones that have the vent in the cap. If I remember correctly the vent line is in the filler neck and runs down between fuel tank and fender, not a good design.
The return line goes from a “T” in front of battery box to the bottom left side of the tank.

 

[RedMVa]

Is it the original filler cap that looks like an umbrella? Several fille caps have been replaced with ones that have the vent in the cap. If I remember correctly the vent line is in the filler neck and runs down between fuel tank and fender, not a good design.
The return line goes from a “T” in front of battery box to the bottom left side of the tank.

Have never seen a vent run between tank and fender. It runs down inside of tank to a fitting on the bottom of tank, on North American tractors anyway

 

[Southy]

Have never seen a vent run between tank and fender. It runs down inside of tank to a fitting on the bottom of tank, on North American tractors anyway

I'll take pictures but this sounds like my setup. I think 2 vertical pipes that come up inside the tank, about an inch short of the cap.

Is it the original filler cap that looks like an umbrella? Several fille caps have been replaced with ones that have the vent in the cap. If I remember correctly the vent line is in the filler neck and runs down between fuel tank and fender, not a good design.
The return line goes from a “T” in front of battery box to the bottom left side of the tank.

Yes I believe it's the original cap. I'll post a Pic, but there's no vent built into it.

Cap gasket doesn’t hurt anything, yes you can blow thru those lines. You just need to start at tank for flow and work forward, good flow to electric pump, then on down the line. Not sure how the return from injectors is plumbed, to a tee? You had all lines loose, could be the air bubbles were circulating back since you had everything loose and so much air. Once flow is established from tank I would run flow from electric pump into a container and put slight pressure into tank to make sure the air is purged

Braided line comes off the Injectors to a tee, one side feeds into the filter housing, the other runs back to the tank. Can you explain that step of pressurizing the tank? Not sure how you mean.

 

[RedMVa]

I'll take pictures but this sounds like my setup. I think 2 vertical pipes that come up inside the tank, about an inch short of the cap.


Yes I believe it's the original cap. I'll post a Pic, but there's no vent built into it.


Braided line comes off the Injectors to a tee, one side feeds into the filter housing, the other runs back to the tank. Can you explain that step of pressurizing the tank? Not sure how you mean.

Yes that’s what I thought and maybe why you kept getting bubbles, circulating them back. One line inside tank is the return and the other is vent. To pressurize tank You just hold a rag over filler neck with your hand and stick an air hose with blow gun in , slightly blow pressure in and hold it in with your hand it’s just to try and purge all the air in line. Have done it many times on stubborn bleeding systems. Very little pressure needed, I stress VERY Little.
If you then have a good air free flow from pump hook it up and bleed filters and on down the line

 

[Southy]

Yes that’s what I thought and maybe why you kept getting bubbles, circulating them back. One line inside tank is the return and the other is vent. To pressurize tank You just hold a rag over filler neck with your hand and stick an air hose with blow gun in , slightly blow pressure in and hold it in with your hand it’s just to try and purge all the air in line. Have done it many times on stubborn bleeding systems. Very little pressure needed, I stress VERY Little.
If you then have a good air free flow from pump hook it up and bleed filters and on down the line

I see, that makes a lot of sense.

I'll start low and work up pressure. I think the lift pump is like 10 psi or something so I'll start a little under.

I also have a vacuum pump for exchanging p/s fluid and such I could use, would that make sense to try connecting to the return where that pipe sticks up in the tank, if pressurizing at the tank doesn't work?

 

[RedMVa]

I see, that makes a lot of sense.

I'll start low and work up pressure. I think the lift pump is like 10 psi or something so I'll start a little under.

I also have a vacuum pump for exchanging p/s fluid and such I could use, would that make sense to try connecting to the return where that pipe sticks up in the tank, if pressurizing at the tank doesn't work?

if you’re gonna do vacuum, unhook inlet of electric pump and put it there, will work better than the pressure. You’re overthinking and complicating it, get solid flow from tank, flow from electric pump to filters, all air free to inj pump, then might have to loosen a couple inj lines. That’s the procedure to follow

 

[JimB2]

Hi read the post by @Dieseltech in the post with the link below.
He says "Perkins engines with CAV DPA injection pumps similar to what you have, there's a constant bleed orifice fitting on top of a filter base that bleeds any trapped air back to the tank return line.
You don't have a Perkins engine but you have the same CAV DPA fuel system on your 574. I was not aware of the purpose of that return line on top off the fuel filter housing.

1967 IH 424 Diesel possibly needs a new Fuel Pump

Not sure if its a fuel problem or a pump problem. Tractor will die when bush hogging. Will restart if I sit a couple minutes and wait but will die after a few seconds, I can also loosen the 2 injector type connections on top of the pump and it will start, tighten connections and go back to bush...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

 

[RedMVa]

Hi read the post by @Dieseltech in the post with the link below.
He says "Perkins engines with CAV DPA injection pumps similar to what you have, there's a constant bleed orifice fitting on top of a filter base that bleeds any trapped air back to the tank return line.
You don't have a Perkins engine but you have the same CAV DPA fuel system on your 574. I was not aware of the purpose of that return line on top off the fuel filter housing.

1967 IH 424 Diesel possibly needs a new Fuel Pump

Not sure if its a fuel problem or a pump problem. Tractor will die when bush hogging. Will restart if I sit a couple minutes and wait but will die after a few seconds, I can also loosen the 2 injector type connections on top of the pump and it will start, tighten connections and go back to bush...

forums.yesterdaystractors.com

That’s good info and makes sense with the fuel pump in that system.

 

[caterpillar guy]

At this point I would look for wet spots on the lines like a cracked flare. Or maybe even an over tightened nut on a flare. So it doesn't seal letting air in the system. Or a leak at any other place, remember you will not see air leak in but only fuel leak out. If one of the shutoffs is wet look to see if the nut is leaking around the stem or if it is in the threads of the shutoff going into the tank. Also look for it coming from beside the tank between the tank and fender. If from there you will need to pull the tank to fix the leak. Those were notorious for rusting out by the fender and leaking. If you don't get a good full flow of fuel from the fuel line to the first filter or pump then you have a restriction needing attention first. I have not needed to pressurize the tank to bleed a 574or a 674 the filters were so low in relation to the tank a full tank would bleed out in a few minutes.