Any advise

[Crazyfeathers]

A few years ago, I purchased a ford 8n from a lady who's father use to own the tractor.. This tractor had been sitting outside for years, but I had the idea that I could fix it up and use it for small yard work.

When I bought the tractor it was the 6 volt system. I put new points, plugs, battery and some new gas in it and it fired up.

The tractor ran fine, until the cold winter months, where the 6 volt system jus didn't seem to be enough to start it, so I decied to purchase a 12 volt conversion kit for the tractor in thehopes that it would start better for me during the winter. I had a friend of a friend install the kit for me, since I was told that this person was good at this kind of work and that he really enjoyed working on smaller tractors like this.

I took the tractor to this friend of a friend, where the tractor just ended up sitting for another year and a half with out much progress. I went to get the tractor from this person and found that all he did in this time was install the alternator and wiring harness.

I brought the tractor home where it sat for another year. Ifinally decided that thats long enough, I couldn't find anyone who would work on thisfor me, so I decided to tackle it myself.

I began by looking at the vague installation instructions. I tried to follow the instructions, but without much success.

I started by putting in a new 12 volt coil and ran the "+" wire from the positive side of this coil to the resistor block, the negative side of the coil to the distributor. Once at the resistor block, I ran another wire from the oppposite side of the resistor to the new key switch, which I installed. I ran the "+" wire from the altenator to the "+" side of the new ammeter and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter. I then ran a wire from the battery connection post on the key switch to the Solenoid. I went over the directions several times, but don't seem to be getting anywhere. No turning over, no spark, nothing.

I ran to a near by John deere dealership three times on this day, in an attempt to get some advise. I showed the mechanics the wiring instructions and did everything they told me to do and then some, by still the key will not turn it over and if I jump the Solenoid with a pliers I still have no spark., nor will the key turn anything over.

I will be the first to admit, that I'm not very mecanically inclined, but really didn't think that this was that big of a job. Willing to take anyones advise on this issue, unless it is to sell the tractor. The directions seem very straight forward and don't feel so bad, since the guys at John Deere getting 100 plus an hour labor can't seem to figure it out, since I tried everything they told me to try.

I should mention that when I bought this tractor there was no ignition swith and that the previous owner had installed a cheap toggle switch that once flipped to the opposit diretion, you could use the standard push button in order to start the tracotor,under the 6 volt system. Since then I removed the toggle switch, no longer use the push buttoin switch and was hoping only on relying on using the new key switch in order to start and shut off the tractor.

The directions I have tell me to run the white wire from the wiring harness from the positive side of the coil to the resistor block, the other wire goes from the distributor to the negative side of the 12 v. coil. The the instructions tell me to run the one a red wire from the altenator to the positive side of the ammeter. Also within this wiring harness is a additional red wire and a yellow wire. Instructions say to run the other red wire to the negative side of the ammeter and the yellow wire to the ignition switch. This is what I did, but nothing. I also tried to run an additional wire from the ignition switch to the battery, just to see, but nothing. Oh, I also ran positive wire from the resistor to the switch as suggested, but still nothing.

 

[Ed S.]

Yikes. You appear to have a mess on your hands. It can probably be sorted out with your 12v conversion, but I'm not the guy to help - never done one before, and from what I see posted here from time to time, there are numerous ways to convert, and most of them are done for the wrong reasons, i.e., to "fix" a perceived problem with the 6v system (there are good reasons to convert to 12v, but your description didn't sound like one to me).

One option you have would be to go back to the original 6v setup. Even before I restored my 8N last year, it would crank and fire on 6v, even down to 0° or a bit colder. The trick is to have sound wiring and components, plus "clean, bright and tight" connections everywhere. The ignition switch can be a culprit in electrical problems, and you identified that the PO had replaced it with a toggle, which raises a flag or two. Remember that 6v pushes twice the current, and corrosion hurts it worse than 12v. A 6v starter also spins slower than your "modern" 12v system, but still plenty fast to start the tractor, all other systems being in good order.

As long as you say your tractor has sat at different places, you may have lost the original 6v parts by now so that may not be an option.

Search the board here for "12 volt conversion" (or variations of those words) - you'll find quite a bit... including wiring diagrams for several of the different ways it can be done.

Hope you get it figured out. Nothing more frustrating than being stuck in a problem like you described.

es

 

[Ultradog MN]

The word comes from the Greek and means
an exclamation of triumph on discovering or solving something.

You just discovered the Best site on the whole internet for solving the very issues you describe. I swear some of these guys can actually SEE the electrons passing through a wire and will help you get it running again.
That kind of help plus a camaraderie and enthusiasm for these old Fords has made this site my Go To site on the whole internet.
Read and follow their directions. Gird your loins and maybe accept a few sharp words that sound like they came from a drill sargent.
They'll get your tractor running for sure if you'll do the wrenching.
Welcome to the board.

 

[GA Dave]

See if any of this helps. David................

http://home.earthlink.net/~8ntractor/12volt.html#wire

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I ran out to my shop after posting this to look at the manufacture of the conversion kit I purchased. It s the Atlantic conversion kit. It seems to be popular from everything I have read this evening and I even cross referenced some other diagrams I found off the internet and show the same diagram, so I cannot see what the problem is. I have looked at this over and over and it should work. I must be missing something very simple.

I still cannot seem to find a explanation why I have no spark. New coil, points, plugs, altenator, battery. Maybe I got a bad coil? or maybe something with the Solenoid?

 

[Eriklane]

I did a full rebuild this year (it ran before) and when I went to start, no spark. Turned out to be the little metal jumper inside the distributor, its part of the points assembly.

Apparently when I reattached everything, I overturned it and snapped it without seeing or noticing. After that, bam; we have fire.

Jumper your ignition switch-could be a bad one. I had one that way.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:56:21 10/22/09) A few years ago, I purchased a ford 8n from a lady who's father use to own the tractor.. This tractor had been sitting outside for years, but I had the idea that I could fix it up and use it for small yard work.

When I bought the tractor it was the 6 volt system. I put new points, plugs, battery and some new gas in it and it fired up.

The tractor ran fine, until the cold winter months, where the 6 volt system jus didn't seem to be enough to start it, so I decied to purchase a 12 volt conversion kit for the tractor in thehopes that it would start better for me during the winter. I had a friend of a friend install the kit for me, since I was told that this person was good at this kind of work and that he really enjoyed working on smaller tractors like this.

I took the tractor to this friend of a friend, where the tractor just ended up sitting for another year and a half with out much progress. I went to get the tractor from this person and found that all he did in this time was install the alternator and wiring harness.

I brought the tractor home where it sat for another year. Ifinally decided that thats long enough, I couldn't find anyone who would work on thisfor me, so I decided to tackle it myself.

I began by looking at the vague installation instructions. I tried to follow the instructions, but without much success.

I started by putting in a new 12 volt coil and ran the "+" wire from the positive side of this coil to the resistor block, the negative side of the coil to the distributor. Once at the resistor block, I ran another wire from the oppposite side of the resistor to the new key switch, which I installed. I ran the "+" wire from the altenator to the "+" side of the new ammeter and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter. I then ran a wire from the battery connection post on the key switch to the Solenoid. I went over the directions several times, but don't seem to be getting anywhere. No turning over, no spark, nothing.

I ran to a near by John deere dealership three times on this day, in an attempt to get some advise. I showed the mechanics the wiring instructions and did everything they told me to do and then some, by still the key will not turn it over and if I jump the Solenoid with a pliers I still have no spark., nor will the key turn anything over.

I will be the first to admit, that I'm not very mecanically inclined, but really didn't think that this was that big of a job. Willing to take anyones advise on this issue, unless it is to sell the tractor. The directions seem very straight forward and don't feel so bad, since the guys at John Deere getting 100 plus an hour labor can't seem to figure it out, since I tried everything they told me to try.

I should mention that when I bought this tractor there was no ignition swith and that the previous owner had installed a cheap toggle switch that once flipped to the opposit diretion, you could use the standard push button in order to start the tracotor,under the 6 volt system. Since then I removed the toggle switch, no longer use the push buttoin switch and was hoping only on relying on using the new key switch in order to start and shut off the tractor.

The directions I have tell me to run the white wire from the wiring harness from the positive side of the coil to the resistor block, the other wire goes from the distributor to the negative side of the 12 v. coil. The the instructions tell me to run the one a red wire from the altenator to the positive side of the ammeter. Also within this wiring harness is a additional red wire and a yellow wire. Instructions say to run the other red wire to the negative side of the ammeter and the yellow wire to the ignition switch. This is what I did, but nothing. I also tried to run an additional wire from the ignition switch to the battery, just to see, but nothing. Oh, I also ran positive wire from the resistor to the switch as suggested, but still nothing.

Chances are that there are more than two problems, but two jump out:
1) "....and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter."
WHERE is the other end of said red wire connected?
2) You are using a key switch to try and activate the solenoid. Unless you have changed to a different type of solenoid than the tractor originally used, this will not work.
Because the original solenoid was activated by supplying ground to the solenoid small terminal, whereas your key starting switch is supplying positive 12v to the solenoid small terminal, which causes nothing to happen.

 

[Mikey's 8n]

we are gonna need to know if it's a front mount or side mount distributor ???/

also does your new key switch have a spring loaded "crank" position like your auto ???

the key switch on the 8n only makes or breaks voltage to the coil. it has no crank position so a toggle switch will work fine...Both of mine have a toggle, one on 6 volts the other on 12 volts.

If you have a auto style key switch... which you can make work... just be carefull. The original starter button will not let the tractor crank in gear and you will defeat that feature if you bypass the original start button...could be dangerous !!!!

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Before we go any further....does it have a front or side distributor. I'm assuming front, but please tell us for sure.

The solenoid doesn't have anything to do w/ spark at the plugs.

Look at the wiring diagram & follow me on this, step by step. Until you understand basic tractor electronics, you will have a 2300 lb yard ornament.

The tractor has three circuits: starting, ignition & charging.

The only thing they have in common is the battery.

Now get the wiring diagram out & follow me.

The starting circuit consists of the battery, solenoid, starter switch and the starter. That's it. Press the thumb switch, the solenoid closes & current flows from the battery to the starter.

The ignition circuit consists of the battery, resistor, key switch, coil & spark plugs. Turn the key on & the current flows from the battery to the resistor to the coil & then to the plugs.

The charging circuit consists of the battery, v/r & generator. You have an alternator w/ a built in v/r instead of a generator & external v/r. When the engine is running, the belt turns the alternator which supplies current to charge the battery.

Keep this in mind as you are putting it all back together & your life will be easier.
50 Tips

 

[DanH01]

Wow! and I thought I had a mess. You did say that you ran a wire off the neg. side of coil. Sounds like you have a side mount (something you ought to clarify). Can"t say that I"m familar with those but on any wiring job there are a few basics. And with yours the first thing I"d do is unwire everything and do a search in the archives here for 12v wiring diagrams. Second electricity doesn"t care what color the outside of the wire looks like, so don"t get hung up on wire color. As long as the gauge is correct that is all that matters. After you get it running then you can go for color correctness. Third if you connect one end of a wire to something then you have to connect the other end of that wire to something in order for the juice to flow. Lastly for now, when you look at the tractor and look at the tangled wire mess and shake your head, start at the source of the juice(battery)and start your wiring from there. Also chances are like the other poster said if you don"t have a spring loaded Ign. switch with an off position you"ll probably have to reuse that toggle switch. Good Luck...Dan

 

[Anonymous-0]

Also need to know if it's a one wire alternator conversion kit or a three wire ???

 

[lha]

I hate to say this because it's human nature,but you let a small problem become a huge clusterf%$#.But don't feel bad as most of us have done the same thing.I drove a '48 dodge truck[6v pos grnd] for years or I probably would have reacted the same way.So relax,take a deep breath and let the 'gurus' lead you out of your mess.in elecrical matters it might help to retrace your steps if you have everything 'like the drawing shows',and it still doesn't work.Make sure you post back and include info like model,front or side mount distributor,etc,good luck---lha

 

[Jubilee85 (VA)]

Like Bruce said very well - not ur solenoid. If it turns over, the starting circuit is working as it should.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:47:14 10/23/09) Like Bruce said very well - not ur solenoid. If it turns over, the starting circuit is working as it should.

Anyone read his post?

" [u:85f9555c22]No turning over[/u:85f9555c22], no spark, nothing.

"I ran to a near by John deere dealership three times on this day, in an attempt to get some advise. I showed the mechanics the wiring instructions and did everything they told me to do and then some, by still the key will [u:85f9555c22]not turn it over [/u:85f9555c22]and if I jump the Solenoid with a pliers I still have no spark., [u:85f9555c22]nor will the key turn anything over[/u:85f9555c22]."

 

[OneWelder]

"negative side of the coil to the distributor. Once at the resistor block, I ran another wire from the opposite side of the resistor to the new key switch, which I installed. I ran the "+" wire from the alternator to the "+" side of the new ammeter and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter. I then ran a wire from the battery connection post on the key switch to the Solenoid. I went over the directions several times, but don't seem to be getting anywhere. No turning over, no spark, nothing.

I ran to a near by John deere dealership three times on this day, in an attempt to get some advise. I showed the mechanics the wiring instructions and did everything they told me to do and then some, by still the key will not turn it over and if I jump the Solenoid with a pliers I still have no spark., nor will the key turn anything over."

Make sure you are getting current- check to a ground other than the battery

If you are getting no current I would check ground cable to the block from battery- even if wired wrong something should happen when you jump the solenoid

 

[Southtowns27]

This should get you really close. Check everything one wire at a time against this drawing.

 

[Southtowns27]

(quoted from post at 19:23:26 10/23/09) This should get you really close. Check everything one wire at a time against this drawing.

Shoot, I don't know why the pic won't show. Anway, copy this into your browser:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Southtowns27/WIRINGDIAGRAM.jpg

I drew a picture for you, it should help[/img]

 

[Anonymous-0]

Hello all, wow this site is great, I have recieved a tremendous amout of information in such a short time, all I need to do now is digest all the comments.

It was a sleepless night last night thinking aboutthe little ford 8N. All day at work the same thing. I strated to read all these messages and just need to re-read in order to think through everything thats been said. Also I'm going to try to give more information.

On the way home, I calld John deere again and told the mechanics that I tried everything they told me, but still nothing works. I started at the solenoid tonight and check it with a test light. I have current going to thecoil when the key is turned on. When I continue to turn the key to ignition the oposite or negative side of the coil lights up my test light. I have current going to the solenoid, the key switch, whcih is a spring loaded switch.

I also have the side mount distributor on this tractor. I have current going to everything it should be when the key is turned on, nut still no turning of the started, (unless I jump with a pliers) and still no spark(even when jumping when he pliers. It has to be something with the distributor or points or something, but why does the ignition key nt turn over the starter? I'm gonjg to look at the southtowns sent me and compare it with the illustration sent by the company with this kit.

Any other advise would be great. Thanks

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Hello all, wow this site is great, I have recieved a tremendous amout of information in such a short time, all I need to do now is digest all the comments.

It was a sleepless night last night thinking aboutthe little ford 8N. All day at work the same thing. I strated to read all these messages and just need to re-read in order to think through everything thats been said. Also I"m going to try to give more information.

On the way home, I calld John deere again and told the mechanics that I tried everything they told me, but still nothing works. I started at the solenoid tonight and check it with a test light. I have current going to thecoil when the key is turned on. When I continue to turn the key to ignition the oposite or negative side of the coil lights up my test light. I have current going to the solenoid, the key switch, whcih is a spring loaded switch.

I also have the side mount distributor on this tractor. I have current going to everything it should be when the key is turned on, nut still no turning of the started, (unless I jump with a pliers) and still no spark(even when jumping when he pliers. It has to be something with the distributor or points or something, but why does the ignition key nt turn over the starter? I"m gonjg to look at the southtowns sent me and compare it with the illustration sent by the company with this kit.

Any other advise would be great. Thanks

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Starter button only has one wire coming from it.

Hello all, wow this site is great, I have recieved a tremendous amout of information in such a short time, all I need to do now is digest all the comments.

It was a sleepless night last night thinking aboutthe little ford 8N. All day at work the same thing. I strated to read all these messages and just need to re-read in order to think through everything thats been said. Also I'm going to try to give more information.

On the way home, I calld John deere again and told the mechanics that I tried everything they told me, but still nothing works. I started at the solenoid tonight and check it with a test light. I have current going to thecoil when the key is turned on. When I continue to turn the key to ignition the oposite or negative side of the coil lights up my test light. I have current going to the solenoid, the key switch, whcih is a spring loaded switch.

I also have the side mount distributor on this tractor. I have current going to everything it should be when the key is turned on, nut still no turning of the started, (unless I jump with a pliers) and still no spark(even when jumping when he pliers. It has to be something with the distributor or points or something, but why does the ignition key nt turn over the starter? I'm gonjg to look at the southtowns sent me and compare it with the illustration sent by the company with this kit.

Any other advise would be great. Thanks

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Hello all, wow this site is great, I have recieved a tremendous amout of information in such a short time, all I need to do now is digest all the comments.

It was a sleepless night last night thinking aboutthe little ford 8N. All day at work the same thing. I strated to read all these messages and just need to re-read in order to think through everything thats been said. Also I'm going to try to give more information.

On the way home, I calld John deere again and told the mechanics that I tried everything they told me, but still nothing works. I started at the solenoid tonight and check it with a test light. I have current going to thecoil when the key is turned on. When I continue to turn the key to ignition the oposite or negative side of the coil lights up my test light. I have current going to the solenoid, the key switch, whcih is a spring loaded switch.

I also have the side mount distributor on this tractor. I have current going to everything it should be when the key is turned on, nut still no turning of the started, (unless I jump with a pliers) and still no spark(even when jumping when he pliers. It has to be something with the distributor or points or something, but why does the ignition key nt turn over the starter? I'm gonjg to look at the southtowns sent me and compare it with the illustration sent by the company with this kit.

Any other advise would be great. Thanks

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Hello all, wow this site is great, I have recieved a tremendous amout of information in such a short time, all I need to do now is digest all the comments.

It was a sleepless night last night thinking aboutthe little ford 8N. All day at work the same thing. I strated to read all these messages and just need to re-read in order to think through everything thats been said. Also I'm going to try to give more information.

On the way home, I calld John deere again and told the mechanics that I tried everything they told me, but still nothing works. I started at the solenoid tonight and check it with a test light. I have current going to thecoil when the key is turned on. When I continue to turn the key to ignition the oposite or negative side of the coil lights up my test light. I have current going to the solenoid, the key switch, whcih is a spring loaded switch.

I also have the side mount distributor on this tractor. I have current going to everything it should be when the key is turned on, nut still no turning of the started, (unless I jump with a pliers) and still no spark(even when jumping when he pliers. It has to be something with the distributor or points or something, but why does the ignition key nt turn over the starter? I'm gonjg to look at the southtowns sent me and compare it with the illustration sent by the company with this kit.

Any other advise would be great. Thanks

 

[Crazyfeathers]

One wire coming fom the positive post on alternator. four wire harness, wit oe wire(white)coming from + side of coil to resistor. Two red wires, one from alternator to +side of amp meter and other to - side of amp meter. four wire being yellow and going from back of solenoise to main post on ignition switch.

 

[Crazyfeathers]

One wire coming fom the positive post on alternator. four wire harness, wit oe wire(white)coming from + side of coil to resistor. Two red wires, one from alternator to +side of amp meter and other to - side of amp meter. four wire being yellow and going from back of solenoise to main post on ignition switch.

 

[Crazyfeathers]

One wire coming fom the positive post on alternator. four wire harness, wit oe wire(white)coming from + side of coil to resistor. Two red wires, one from alternator to +side of amp meter and other to - side of amp meter. four wire being yellow and going from back of solenoise to main post on ignition switch.

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Chances are that there are more than two problems, but two jump out:

1) "....and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter." One red wire comes from altenator to + side of amp meter and other goes from solenoid to negative side of amp meter

WHERE is the other end of said red wire connected?

2) You are using a key switch to try and activate the solenoid. Unless you have changed to a different type of solenoid than the tractor originally used, this will not work. "I have not swithced solenoids"

Because the original solenoid was activated by supplying ground to the solenoid small terminal, whereas your key starting switch is supplying positive 12v to the solenoid small terminal, which causes nothing to happen. ??????????? Is it the orignial solenoid thats causing this problem????????

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Nearly everyone who has responded has told you that a spring loaded ignition switch will not work on this tractor. Do you not understand that?

There are probably 6 guys on this board who could make it work; I'm not one of them & neither are you. Stop trying. Get the correct switches & wire it according to the diagrams you have.

You need a standard key ignition switch; one wire in, one wire out. You need the OEM neutral safety switch that sets on top of the transmission. One wire.

Look at the wiring diagrams. That's what they require. But, w/ a side mount distributor, you probably do not need a resistor. Make sure you are using a coil that does not require a resistor.

 

[trucker40]

Using your test light,when you turn on the switch against the spring in the start position,see if you have juice at the hot starter post.If not then see if you have it to the solenoid.If your solenoid has a small wire going to it,when you turn the switch to the start position it should be hot and it should allow current to go through the solenoid and crank the starter.If the small wire is hot and the solenoid doesnt work,it might need a new solenoid.Also see if it works when the tractor is in neutral.Also if you have a starter button on the tractor like original,you can wire your switch to where it just turns on the power to the coil,and use the starter button to start the tractor.You dont want to wire it where it will start in gear anyway.Using a test light takes the guessing out of it.Either you have juice to what you are looking at or not.Others can tell you better than me since I dont have a tractor like yours to look at.Somewhere I think you have some wires crossed up or not hooked up in the right place,just not knowledgeable enough to tell you where.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 21:03:41 10/23/09) Chances are that there are more than two problems, but two jump out:

1) "....and another red wire from the wiring harness that the instructions told me to mount to the negative side of the ammeter." One red wire comes from altenator to + side of amp meter and other goes from solenoid to negative side of amp meter

WHERE is the other end of said red wire connected?

2) You are using a key switch to try and activate the solenoid. Unless you have changed to a different type of solenoid than the tractor originally used, this will not work. "I have not swithced solenoids"

Because the original solenoid was activated by supplying ground to the solenoid small terminal, whereas your key starting switch is supplying positive 12v to the solenoid small terminal, which causes nothing to happen. ??????????? Is it the orignial solenoid thats causing this problem????????

"??????????? Is it the orignial solenoid thats causing this problem????????"

Well, you could look at it that way. Or you might view it as you are trying to use a key start switch with the original type of solenoid, in which case, I would say that the key switch is the problem. BUT, if you insist on the non-safety key start switch then you need a different-than-original solenoid. There are at least 4 types in this world. The attached drawings show normal applications of two types (1 is as N tractors were made).
The RED mark-up of 1 is very likely your situation of original solenoid type with a key switch supplying battery voltage to small terminal, which is already being supplied to the other end of solenoid winding, so all is at same voltage, no current flows, nothing works. IF you want your key switch, 2 is the solenoid & connections you need. If you start it in gear, bodily harm can occur!

 

[Crazyfeathers]

Illustration you sent me I followed to a T, three times. It doesn't work!! Went back to just a toggle switch system, since everyone was telling me the spring loaed switch I had won't work. I jumped the solenoid with a pliers, no spark.. Want to buy a tractor???????

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:47:56 10/25/09) Illustration you sent me I followed to a T, three times. It doesn't work!! Went back to just a toggle switch system, since everyone was telling me the spring loaed switch I had won't work. I jumped the solenoid with a pliers, no spark.. Want to buy a tractor???????

xactly what do you mean in "I jumped solenoid with pliers & no spark"?

You might mean the engines spins, but no ignition spark to plugs? Or you might mean no turning of engine AND it doesn't even make a spark at the solenoid/pliers handle point of contact?