C113/123 head /valve questions

[WellWorn]

My '51 SA, the one with the long ago freeze cracked block (long before my ownership) that I've been nursing along since 2005, has finally run out of enough compression to keep more than 2 cylinders firing, and will now only cough on one. It owes me nothing, but I've come to really appreciate the SA for it's incredible versatility on our small farm.

A few years ago I picked up an incomplete spare engine, stuck but intact. I had intended to have it rebuilt and replace the bad one, but some financial setbacks kept that from happening.

A couple years ago I rescued a '49SA with a stuck motor that I managed to make a basket case of, but again lacking spare funds to go through it front to back to make it good for another 70 years...

Anyway, I'm now doing some better financially and needing to get something going to keep the driveway cleared of snow, thus I'm looking through the YT store at engine rebuild kits for at least one of the 2 "good" motors, and it seems the kit I need needs valve part#'s to be outfitted correctly. Seems to be simple: use the head casting numbers to get the right valves, right? I'm sure I'm missing something, but the TC39 isn't being helpful.

The head from the '49 is 251172R1 The TC39 page 11 doesn't list that number; the only thing close is 251173R96, being an assembly of head # 366299R12 plus valves etc. I can't seem to find any supercision chain of numbers getting from one to the other either.

The head from the spare engine, serial #18604, date code A (1955) is 251172R2. Same issue as above. This supposedly came from a super C, but the SC ended in 54 and the engine serial # doesn't seem to be anywhere in the ballpark for either a 100 or 200.

The head on the '51 is not original (nor is the engine, date coded "T" / 1950). Head casting# looks to be 366206R1 - no mention in the TC39, though I'd made a note from a previous search that it may have come from a C135.

I'm sure someone has been around this tree before, and I'd appreciate some clues so I can get a kit ordered, get it to a local engine shop, and get something running so I don't have to shovel out 200' of driveway every other day through March. I'm getting too old for that.

 

[WellWorn]

Still digging, and found a reference from a used parts dealer for 366299R12:
[code:1:25e2eb8db6]Cross Reference Numbers: 251172R21, 251173R96, 355046R2, 366299R12, 393508R91 [/code:1:25e2eb8db6]
But that still doesn't tell me which valves the 251172R1 or R2 heads use. Not sure if it's just stem length that changes, or the valve size, or something else.

 

[SinkholeRoad]

I ran into this problem. I recently did a full engine rebuild on a Farmall C and had issues figuring the valve lengths. I wound up having to disassemble the valve rack and measure to verify. When I did I found that someone had replaced a valve in my engine and it was much shorter than all the others...so they just adjusted the rocker all the way down to make up for it. So obviously the valve length is an issue, I would double check all the details on this when ordering. I believe I ordered my stuff from Agkits.
Good luck

 

[used red MN]

I do not know if I will be much help, I am not exactly
sure what a TC39 you are referring to is. It may be a
printed catalog. The online catalog has a lot of
descriptions on what they are looking for, maybe this
information is more up to date. From the link ust click
the tractor you are looking to get parts for the Super A
or Super C. Clicking the ..Tractor Parts.. at the top of
the page on these forums will get you the same place.
Poke here

 

[WellWorn]

Hi used red MN, yes the TC-39 is the printed catalog, mine a reprint from the 1-1960 edition. And yes, I've already been to the YT parts store from which I was going to order - their parts listing needs the correct valve part number to get the correct parts in the kit.

Sinkholeroad, I'm thinking this is probably a weekday issue and either call a CIH dealer to pick their database, or call the YT store directly and see if they can decipher the correct part numbers.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

If you are taking stuff to a engine shop, dont order
anything. Let them do it. They have much greater
cross referencing available to them than you do.
The time you spend trying to decipher the correct
head/valve combinations , they could already have
it back together. Not saying youre incapable, but
you are in unfamiliar territory, therefore you could
order the wrong stuff. This will take even more time
than if you just let them do it. Plus now, the the
return shipping is your problem, not the shops.
Also, you are paying retail on the valves whereas
your shop can probably get them cheaper. If youre
lucky, your shop will have some old coot like tractor
vet working there, he could I.D. the valves with no
numbers at all.

 

[Jim Becker]

You could shovel out that driveway by hand long before anyone could sort out all the C-113/123/135 head part numbers. And the numbers you find depend on which version(s) of TC-39 you are looking at. But I think I can help sort out what you are working on.

First, the short answer. The valves for head 251272R1 are:
intake -- 57797D
exhaust -- 57798D
These numbers were good at least up to 1964. I haven't checked later parts catalogs.

I'll add some more on head numbers in another post.

 

[WellWorn]

Thank you, Jim. Greatly appreciated.

Fritz, the local engine shop is fairly new and deals mostly with hot-rods. He might have good source info, and maybe he could get parts cheaper, but cheaper is not always better. I've been assembling various gas engines since I was a teen - it's just the equipment for crank (or cam) grinding I don't have. I'll also let him do the head and valves because it's just faster and easier in his shop than mine.

Besides, I'd still like to support the forum here and also get to learn a bit more about the details of these old tractors.

This post was edited by WellWorn on 12/26/2021 at 05:28 pm.

 

[Jim Becker]

Some details:
Different compression ratio heads use different length valves. So distillate and kerosene are different. I'm not talking about them. This is just gas engines, where later versions got higher compression and different valves over time. I hope I get this in without any typos.

Head 251172R1 was used from Super A serial 255418. That head as a complete assembly with valves etc, is 251173R1 (valve numbers in my previous post).

Head 355046R1 was a backward compatible replacement for 251172Rx and when assembled with valves became the same assembly part number with an incremented revision number.

Head 366299R1 came along at engine number 36001, with the intro of the 130/230. It uses different valves that the earlier ones. However, if assembeld with the proper valves, that entire assembly can be used on earlier engines. Thus the assembly retains the same base part number with a new revision number. Head 366299R1 (or R12) assembles to 251173R96.

I can't find a reference for 366206R1. Could it be another example of 366299R1 with a poorly formed part number? Nothing on 393508R91 either.

Engine number 18604 would be corrent for a 100/200 from about September/October 1955.

 

[560Dennis]

Heres part of the bulletin for fire Crater installation, theres parts about heads tested and inspection .Recommended sorry dont see what
heads are kerosene or distillates.
Put the bulletin number in bottom for you to track if your going for this set up . Good luck

 

[RedRamGT]

If it helps, Steiner shows Valve Train IHS3311 for cylinder heads 251172R1 and 251172R2. The description on their website also shows the valve lengths, it sounds like that might be what you're looking for.

 

[WellWorn]

Dennis, there is nothing like seeing the official documents. Thanks.

Jim, it seems I'm not the only one looking for info on these heads / valves, as the thread shows over 50 views, so far. Thanks again for the deep dive into what's what.

Anyway, I took a couple pictures of the head on the dead engine. This one shows the casting #, scraped to highlight the numbers a little.

And here is a pic of the date code: looks to me like June 28, 1957 (C)

If I come up with any more info on it, I'll post it.[/img:6ce3bbf95c]

 

[WellWorn]

RedRam, this sort of info is what makes this site wonderful. Just knowing where to look helps, and sometimes just stumbling on something in some odd corner of the web. Unfortunately, Steiner uses proprietary coding for their parts so I tend to not even look there. Seems I shouldn't rule them out.

Thank you.

 

[Jim Becker]

I wonder if that may be 356206R1 rather than 366206R1. Either way, I've got nothing. I suppose the last digit could be a 5. Again, nothing. I doubt I'll run across anything else useful.

By the way, a technique I sometimes find helpful for reading numbers on castings is to look at it and light it from the side. Move the light around the number so it casts a shadow in different directions. If you haven't ever tried that, it is worth keeping for future use.

 

[WellWorn]

Had a few minutes between supper and bed, and decided to duck-duck-go the 366206R1, and whadayaknow:

https://www.worthingtonagparts.com/international-cylinder-head-4-cylinder-gas-used-wu-366299r13

It's listed there as a C123 head, cross referenced as 366206R1

Another site has the 366206Rx listed as a C135 head, refurbed for $999. I think I'll hang on to it, just in case I or someone else could use it. The greater likelihood is my heirs will have more iron to scrap when my time comes to get turned under. lol

This post was edited by WellWorn on 12/27/2021 at 05:14 pm.

 

[Haas]

I have a fully rebuilt 251172R1 head sitting on the shelf. I got it from a machine shop about 10
years ago when I had a similar one rebuilt. The original shop customer had never picked it up
and it had been on his shelf for a while. It has all new valves with pressed in hardened seats. I
think all other parts are new. I bought it cheap to keep as a spare. I will sell it to you way
cheaper than you can get the parts to fix one because I am soon going to sell the remaining
engines that could use it. Problem is that shipping will not be cheap. If you are interested send
me an e mail.

 

[Haas]

I have a fully rebuilt 251172R1 head sitting on the shelf. I got it from a machine shop about 10
years ago when I had a similar one rebuilt. The original shop customer had never picked it up
and it had been on his shelf for a while. It has all new valves with pressed in hardened seats. I
think all other parts are new. I bought it cheap to keep as a spare. I will sell it to you way
cheaper than you can get the parts to fix one because I am soon going to sell the remaining
engines that could use it. Problem is that shipping will not be cheap. If you are interested send
me an e mail.

 

[WellWorn]

Thanks for the offer, Haas, but it's a little late. Sorry of my life. lol. Also because this '49 engine is completely original to the tractor with casting codes within 2 weeks of each other, I'd like to keep it all together. Now the '51 the '49 engine is going into, temporarily until I get the back half of the '49 completely gone through, is another story. There's no making the '51 even close to original any more, and that's fine by me. Like the 6 million dollar man, it's so far gone it can now be made better than original. Once I get into that project, I'll try to post pics on the forum.

But anyway... Monday afternoon I dropped off the engine parts at the hot-rod shop, had him confirm journal sizes (.002-.003 under, and egged), and rather than let him attempt to decipher what I'd just gone through, I ordered parts from the YT store for a top to bottom rebuild: sleeves, pistons, rings, wrist pins and retainers, rod and main bearings (.010 under), gaskets, seals, new valves, guides, springs, keepers. It's getting hot tanked, bead blasted, crank ground and magnifluxed, head and block surfaced for flat. He'll install hardened exhaust valve seats and assemble and paint it for me (I'm providing rattle cans of 2150 red). Not going to be cheap, but it's the quickest way to get the 'ol girl going again, and a long overdue start on getting the '49 put into restored / good working condition again.

Thanks again to everyone for the assistance.

 

[Jim Becker]

(quoted from post at 17:40:36 12/28/21) . . . block surfaced for flat. . . .

If the top of the block is resurfaced, the amount the sleeves project above the block will need to be checked. It should be .003 to .007 according to the I&T Manual. If he typically works on sleeveless engines, he may not be aware of (or may not think about) that particular pitfall.

 

[WellWorn]

Thanks for the heads-up, Jim.

I know, and suspect he's well aware of setting sleeve protrusion. It appears he wrote that into the estimate. I'll double check that he knows the spec dimension when I drop off the rebuild parts.