Condenser Question

[Anonymous-0]

I have a 45 "B" with a magneto. The condenser died, so I replaced it with a used one. Don't know how long it will last. Can I use a condenser from a "60" tune up kit I have on hand? Someone said the "60" condenser {12 volt} would burn up the points on the 6 volt system on the "B" is that true? There are no good parts places close by so I would have to order any new parts. Thanks

 

[Bob]

6 or 12 Volts is NOT the issue... capacitance rating IS.

Since you have a working condenser, measure it's capacitance vs. that of the one you'd like to substitute. (Many of today's DVM's have a "capacitance" function.)

 

[Strikefalcon]

I Don't know if it would burn up the points but if you used a 6 volt condenser in a 12 volt system you would be more likely to blow the cap.

 

[JDGimpa]

If you have a mag it dosen't matter if your system is 6 or 12 volts, a mag makes it's own power and works without any input. If it is hooked up to the electrical system you don't have a mag. You have a distributor The only thing you have to mesure is the capacity of the condenser.

 

[Bob]

Strike, ain't gonna happen, as the caps aren't rated at 6 or 12 Volts, they are rated at several HUNDRED Volts.

 

[souNdguy]

ditto what bob said. auto ignition condensor has a way higher dielectric voltage rating than 6-12-24-36 etc.. etc.. etc..


soundguy

 

[BushogPapa]

A "Mag" works with very low current (just what the magnet/windings generate), I would think the correct condenser would be preferred..but if it works with the one you have in there, it should be ok for a while..until you can get the correct one.
You may want to put a new set of points in anyway, when you get the new condenser...

Ron..

 

[John T]

I have to agree with good Mayor Bob on this one for sure n heres why, I would NOT use a condensor rated for a coil distributor ignition on a Magneto. (UNLESS I knew for sure the capacitance is a near exact same value match)

He is absolutely CORRECT the voltage withstand rating is already in the several hundred volts range NOT 6 or 12 etc and its NOT TRUE a 12 or 6 will burn up the other "for that reason".

HOWEVER especially on low energy (as compared to coil ignitions) magnetos its more critical the correct capacitance value be used. Its my suspicion the inductance of a coil distributor ignition is much higher then the coils used in a Magneto and, therefore, a different value of condensor may, likewise, be required AND IN THE MAG IF THE CAPACITANCE IS WAY OFF YOURE REALLY PUSHING THE ENVELOPE OF PERFORMANCE.

For example in the Older Wico C mags or the Wico X mag using a stock coil, the condensors were much lower in capacitance then if a person installs the so called "hot coil" the XHD coil BECAUSE THAT COIL HAS MORE INDUCTANCE AND REQUIRES A HIGHER MATCHING CAPACITOR/CONDENSOR...

SOOOOOOOOO I would go buy a condensor for your specific magneto (like Wico C or X or AP or a Fairbanks Morse etc etc) and if its a Wico X with a XHD Hot Coil then an XHD condensor. OF COURSE IF YOU KNOW FOR SURE a 60 with a coil distributor ignition uses the same capacitance value condensor as your specific mag (and its coil) then sure it will work regardless if 6 or 12 volt BUT I DONT KNOW THAT TO BE A FACT SO CANT IN GOOD FAITH SAY GO AHEAD N USE IT BUT HAVE TO RECOMMEDN YOU BUY THE RIGHT CONDENSOR FOR YOUR PARTICULAR MAGNETO

Nuff said

John T

 

[BushogPapa]

The Condenser is there to "Kill" the current flow and cause the Magnetic field to Collapse instantly, to make the Spark..
The Condenser is sort of a "Sponge", absorbing the electric (Back EMF) that would cause a spark across the points when they "Break"..
It seems to me that more Capacitance would not be detrimental, in this case..??
John T or B&D, what do you think..??

Ron..

 

[M-MAN]

John T;
Here's a chart showing the mf on the condensor's. The Wico's all use the same mf value so I'm thinking it must be the rating or volume for lack of a better term that's the difference? Way above my level of smarts. As you can see the Delco 6 & 12 both have the same mf. I woulden't be afraid to interchange any of the condensors except the ES in an emergency.

 

[John T]

Thanks M Man,

I have some charts I got from Duane and Glenn but didnt have time to look for them. I know the hot coils (XHD not even addressed on your chart)take a 30 to 34 which is way higher then the standard X coil. Contrary to your chart, I'm almost sure the X is higher then the C but I will hold off until I actually find the data.

The size is critical and even moreso in a mag and it has to do with the inductance value of the coil its matched up to. If its too big she wont ever fire while if too small the sparks weaker and the points burn up sooner. If its just right the sparks the strongest and the points last longer. Its late now but I will dig into my data bank

John T

 

[John T]

Fun chat Ron, heres the deal:

Too much capacitance can indeed be detrimental, in fact if its way too high she wont even fire at all (too slow of a magnetic field collapse). If its too low she still sparks but weaker and the points burn up to fast.

It has to do with the inductance value of the coil its matched to and has to do with the rate of collapse of the coils magnetic field. If its just the right size the sparks the strongest and the points life is maximized, too big no fire at all, too little yields a weak spark and premature points burning.

I just cant say (without data and specs) that a condesnor designed n sized for a battery powered coil ignition is the same as for a magneto coil????????? But its my best guess they are NOT.....

John T

 

[Erik B]

A condenser is put into a mag or a distributor to help collapse the coil's magnetic field faster than it would without a condenser in place. This quickening of field collapse produces a hotter spark. Basic stuff here, I know, but bear with me.

It's natural to think that a bigger condenser would do this faster, so bigger would be better, but the inductance of the coil (and that's what's in a mag too) is matched to the capacitance of the condenser with engineering math to come up with an ideal combination. Bigger, in this case, is not better, the right LC (inductance of coil = L, capacitance of condenser = C) is best. If you want the best spark, put in what the manufacturer tells you.

And measure it - I've bought several condensers tailored to specific applications that were nowhere near right, in value. I've taken to making my own. As has been pointed out, you can get capacitance measurement even in cheap meters these days.

 

[BushogPapa]

I agree with you...!

I was lost, when thinking about "Too much capacitance..!!!
Guess if a small sponge is good, I was thinking a Larger one must be better...!!!
Balance..as with ALL things in Life..!
Ron..

 

[M-MAN]

John T;
It ain't my chart so you're gonna have to blame Deere! LOL It woulden't be the first time we caught mistakes in their books. I'm guessing the XHD isn't listed because it's an upgrade. Duane didn't have it listed either on the charts I looked at. His chart has the AP, C, and X all the same mf like the Deere chart. Glenn must be the one holding out on us. lol

 

[John T]

Hey M Man, If I get time I will dig out some of Duane and Glens spec sheets and re post as an update, the XHD coil is what they now sell and use as the so called "hot coil"... Both those guys actually tested new out of the box condensors to insure the correct capacitance and they reported a high percentage of them failed grrrrrrrrr.

Later

John T

 

[John T]

Thats what the old master told "The Karate Kid" BALANCE is important in all things in life NOT just karate BUT IT ALSO APPLIES TO CONDENSORS LOL if it too big (acts like a big empty electron bank) the collapse of the magnetic field is soooooooooo slooooooooowwwwwwww. In a mag or a generator the faster the rotor spins the more energy created and the slower the less. The rise and fall of the coils magnetic field (how often and how fast) is similar and the proper size of a condensor allows for a fast rise and fall while at the same time absorbing some of the energy that would otherwise ALL arc across the points burning them up too dern fast

Gotta love tricity

John T

 

[Anonymous-0]

Thanks for all the comments. I will just have to order the one for the Mag. Thanks Guys

 

[Kentb of SWMO]

Ignition condensers are about .22 Micro-farads plus or minus 20% like all condenser/capacitors are rated with a voltage rating of around 300 volts. This has been this way almost since day one. I have used battery ignition caps on magnetos with NO issues. A ignition condenser is a ignition condenser. The packaging may vary to fit inside the case BUT the condenser does NOT need to be inside the case to work. As long as the condenser case is connected to the case of the mag and the wire of the condenser is connected to the insulated side of the point, the condenser will work. You can even use condenser that are manufacture for the electronics industry. As long as it is the right value it will work if everything else in the ignition system is correct.

Kent

 

[BushogPapa]

YOU BET I do LOVE tricity..!!!

I have a Spinal Chord Stim in my back now and THEY WORK..!!!!
Charge it right thru the skin about once every 4-6 weeks and 7 different programs to choose from and different intensities to what I need..
Must be 85 to 90% reduction in back pain..sometimes the back pain is 100% Gone..!
I don't even know it is there and the level I need is not even noticeable..
Really loosens all the muscles in my lower back and I can leave it OFF even for a couple days and I remain the same..
Wonderful stuff..!!
(One needs to choose his Dr Very Carefully for this)..
St Jude Medical in Columbus, Ohio are masters of Pain Management..!!!

Ron..