Fence post frost heaving?

[Butch(OH)]

I am the caretaker at a place that has guessing 1 1/2 -2 miles of board fence. One side of the fence is pasture, other side is mostly groomed lawn. Oldest part of fence is probably 8 years old, newest just installed. Have always sprayed about a 2 foot band to keep the fence area clean where It can't be mowed and horses can't eat. The posts are round and were all driven in place. Now for my question. The older part of the fence had become uneven due to frost heaving the posts. Fence builder said it was because of the spraying and the bare ground frosts deeper thus heaving the posts. I think he is full of it and didn't properly drive the posts and told the owner so but what do you all think? At stake is having to deal with 2 miles of fence in sone other manner than spray.

 

[Aaron SEIA]

I think they didn't get set deep enough. I'm also not sure a driven post ever really does set well in the ground.
AaronSEIA

 

[kcm.MN]

Lots of information missing here; how deep posts were pounded, type of post wood, location of fence (what kind of weather conditions does it see), etc.

For me, I would look at the past conditions that the fence has been exposed to. I don't know what winds are like in your area, but around us it gets plenty windy. Our electric utility knows how to install power poles. And yet, many poles will angle to one side after a while. Happens when ground is wet and in high winds; not so much from ground heave.

I would assume your wood fence captures MUCH more wind than a power pole, so I'm going to HEAVILY lean towards this being your cause. Just simple maintenance due to natural events. I will guess that there is nobody to blame.

I will also suspect that whether spraying or mowing, clearing grasses/weeds from the fence is likely not going to have any bearing on what you're asking about.

Just my opinion, but an interesting question to ponder this morning. Thanks!

One last thing -- vegetation and terrain can funnel and channel wind, increasing its speed in some areas over others. I know this to be true because of our house vs. our pasture. In the open, wind is usually about 30% to 40% less than at the house. But depends on the direction of the wind and how the wind interacts with vegetation. ...We have no terrain. All flat! :shock:

 

[showcrop]

I see no big deal. It is just the way it is. I know that frost will not go very deep when there is a lot of vegetation, but with lawn on one side and horses on the other you can't have enough to make a difference even if you don't spray. Lack of vegetation can't be the cause. I would be spraying less than a foot wide. A much bigger factor is moisture. Dry ground is a lot less likely to heave than wet ground. You just drive along the fence with a tractor with loader and give them each a tap or two.

 

[redforlife]

Same guy install all of it?? Supposedly installed it all the same way?
If so, I'd go to the newest he installed, dig down along side one of the currently un-affected post, and just see how far he drove it into the ground. Is what your going to want to look for here, is if he drove it in as far as he said he did. And if that is deep enough to be un-affected by frost heaving for your area.

I'm guessing one of the two isn't right. And likely he didn't put them in deep enough to prevent frost heaving, or more importantly just the simple natural fence leaning itself from posts being to shallow.

 

[ASEguy]

I like redforlife's idea except I would go to the worst one and dig down next to it to see just how far down it goes. Then I would ask him how far down he puts them to prevent frost heaving if that is what they said happened. I paint mine 36 from the bottom when I install them.

 

[Traditional Farmer]

The roots of grass or any plants would give the ground a cushion of sorts when it freezes,with no roots and solid dirt no cushion so it may be forcing the fence posts up especially if the ground is wet when it freezes.

 

[MJMJ]

You're never going to be able to prove anything either way. In theory, less vegetation equals deeper frost. In reality the difference is probably negligible in most locations.

Just to be clear, driving posts are by far the strongest method. If I recall, they're on average 7 times stronger than dug and tamped posts.

 

[grandpa Love]

What is frost heave?? Lol. No such thing in Alabama, sorry can't help.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Each spring when the frost is out of the ground, for the past 47 years, we have "fixed fence" which mostly consists of walking the lines and giving each post 2-3 smacks with a 14lb maul to re-seat them due to having been heaved by frost.

Are these r-word-ed horses? Any grazing animal, including horses, will eat right up to, and UNDER any fence as far as they can reach. Why can't they get within 2' of the fence? Probably had their brains fried from eating the grass sprayed with whatever spray you're using...

 

[db4600]

Thats ludicrous! In Minnesota wed have to drive them 5 ft. deep if that were the case. Tell him he should have greased the posts so the frost doesnt grab them therefore its an install issue. Maybe he should have set the posts with the points up so they shed water. Heaving all depends on soil.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Frost heaving is caused by Gremlins that live under the posts.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Race horses actually. The fence is 4 board
with the bottom one only 8 off the
ground. Horses could not reach to graze
the lawn side of the fence if they wanted
to. I cut the lawn with an 18 foot pull
type finish mower and you can't get right
up against the fence without hitting it
now and then. Soooo, thats why the 2 foot
band of weed control is needed,,, or they
need some other real world option. String
trimmer is not a consideration.

 

[JK-NY]

How cold does it get there and how much snow on the ground during the winter? Freeze and thaw is what pushes things up. Snow insulates the ground, real wet ground doesn't freeze as deep, bare ground freezes quicker than sod. If the posts are not deep enough they will frost heave . As mentioned fence fixing done around here in spring included checking the posts and driving back down the ones that pushed up or replacement of rotted ones.

 

[rick n ohio]

I'm in east central ohio mostly stays in the 20s or 30s Might dip down to zero for a week then warm back up .I have about 4000 feet of 4 board fence I keep it Sprayed a couple feet on both sides so I can keep it mowed and looking nice.i had a local fence company build it about 10 years ago they drive the post with a skid steer driver that also has a small auger that can swing in place to make a pilot hole in hard or rocky ground its really a awesome looking setup can only imagine what that thing cost .I have not noticed any post moving at all in ten years still looks like the day they built it

 

[Leroy]

Normal her in Ohio and need posts set 3 foot deep, long stretches 4 foot deep or they would pull over. and corner posts must be dug hole. Corner posts have notches cut in side and cross pieces fastened in those notches to hold against the heaving , Put at 90* angle on sides, pieces are 2 foot long and burryed with back fill. Line posts of wood are not ancred like that. It is normal to drive by and see where all posts are heaved up and starting to lean over. I never saw or heard of driving wood posts anyplace except on here) On the farm I had no way would you have been able to drive any wood post, rocks. Even the steel T posts you had to move from orignal spot because you could not drive because of a rock. Fence comming up is proably because horses are ewaching under fence and lifting with there necks trying to reach grass on other side. Wet ground in spring not hard for horses or cows to do that.

 

[old-9]

This trimmer might work out for you.
here

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

Wind and lack of snow cover has a lot to do with frost depth. Is that section exposed to more wind?

 

[Butch(OH)]

It's up on a hill and catches a lot of wind for sure.

 

[Crazy Horse]

So a fence installer should guarantee no frost heave? Whatever the reason for it happening in the first place, good luck finding somebody that will provide a no-heave guarantee.

 

[Dick L]

They were put in shallow for conditions. I put in the two rail split rail fence for my pasture along the road. They all were pushed up from frost because I only had about two feet I could set them in. All the wood posts I set with the tractor auger are over three feet and have stayed in place. I am up close to the Michigan boarder. The split rail cedar posts rotted off at the ground, The treated landscape timbers I used for fence posts before I put in the so called cedar posts are more than 80% still solid.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Who said anything about a warrenty, beside you?

 

[rustred]

are the posts put in not upside down? seen that before. big end is to be in the ground. when small end is in ground the frost will force the post upward.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Nobody ..... can't a guy post something original here? Sounds to me that you or someone else you represent has been in contact with him about it if I'm reading your info correctly. Google 'guaranteed fence builders' .... you'll find somebody.

 

[randy hall]

were they put in on the wrong side of the moon?

 

[Butch(OH)]

The posts are the lathe turned type, Didnt notice a taper to them but possible.
The owners are super picky about the fence,, and everything else. Fence guy knocked the high posts back down.
With out weed killer somebody's going to have a near full time job keeping that fence looking like they want it with a string trimmer,, won't be me!

 

[ss55]

The idea of the spaying causing the frost heaving is a long shot. In Iowa tapered posts were used for all our fences and there was little frost heaving, but the heavy clay soils could also be the difference.

Sounds like a fussy customer. If they pay well it could be worth running a riding lawn mower next to the fence line, the horses will still reach the sides of the posts. Sometimes fussy customers are just not worth the aggravation.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Fussy owner is correct! Every square foot of nearly 50 acres of lawn and 100 of pasture is maintained like its a small front yard. I love working for the wealthy but they worry about different things than us commoners, LOL

 

[Wheat47]

I'd like to have one of those!!!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Horse people. What's worse, WEALTHY horse people.

The only way to prevent frost heaving is to bury the posts to below the frost line, at least 3'. That's not going to happen with pounded posts. After about 2' all you're going to do is smash the posts with the pounder.

Unless the landowner has the fence company go through and drill holes 3-4' down and set the posts in concrete, they are going to heave.

 

[Russ from MN]

We always put the big end down, but we sharpened them with a chainsaw and pushed them in with the dozer on the skidder. The frost didn't seem to push them up too bad, and we certainly had deep frost in N MN. But, having no vegetation around them will certainly make the frost go down farther.

 

[Dick L]

Some people get all the jobs. ^D

 

[MJMJ]

A good fencing operation has the equipment to drive posts well over 5 deep if needed.

 

[Dingo3]

Have them get you a DR wheeled trimmer. They can be angled left or right and work great along a fence. Not hard on your back and you walk the same distance as you would spraying.

 

[Janicholson]

No thin layer of dead grass will make more then 2 inches of frost difference. Not the issue. Short posts might be!! Have one pulled to find out just how deep it is! at least a foot below frost is reasonable. Jim

 

[Bill(Wis)]

wsetting a wood post in concrete is just plain stupid.

 

[MJMJ]

(quoted from post at 09:44:16 06/03/22) wsetting a wood post in concrete is just plain stupid.

Did someone even mention it?

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 12:59:46 06/03/22)

(quoted from post at 09:44:16 06/03/22) wsetting a wood post in concrete is just plain stupid.

Did someone even mention it?

I was trying to figure that out as well.