Ford 4000 Diesel, Intermittent Wet Stacking?

[lastcowboy32]

I've had my 4000 parked outside all winter. It has a cap on the muffler, so I don't think this is a water ingress issue, but here's the story:

I've had it parked next to the barn, so I can plug in the inline water heater (It has a heater in the lower radiator hose). The generator has been bad for a couple months, but I've left it alone and used the tractor just a couple of times to plow snow (then I put the battery on a charger to make sure it's charged back to snuff)

Anyway, I got the generator off yesterday and had it rebuilt. I put the generator back on today, and started it up. It started fine with no heater, the outside temp was about 50.

I had some antifreeze with me, so I topped off the antifreeze while it was running... it uses maybe a half gallon of coolant every...oh...I don't know...say 20 to 30 hours of operation.

But, I had to shut it off after a couple of minutes to retension the generator belt.

When I went to start it again, the starter balked.... the solenoid clicked... but no real turning..

then I tried again...just a couple of turns

then I tried again...boom, started right up like always.

BUT, it seeped maybe a half pint of black oily/watery/milky crud out of the exhaust manifold.

I let it run about 15 minutes to check generator function and make sure the battery recharged. It ran no problem.

It seems to me that one of the cylinders must have wet stacked? It got plugged up with some fluid that wouldn't let the piston rise?

Now...this tractor ALWAYS starts well. I have never used ether. I don't need to plug in the heater until the temperature is maybe down into the teens or twenties. It doesn't need glow plugs.

But... it always steams from the exhaust manifold (or possibly head gasket just below the exhaust manifold...hard to tell) when it first starts up. After about five minutes, it's always running clean as a whistle. No smoke...nothing.

Is this engine just having a little head gasket leak or wet stacking issue initially after a cold start?

I've only had this tractor for a year, and it's been just about free of any trouble. Always runs fine...just... like I said... It always seems to spit out some oily/watery/black crud and steam/smoke just a little bit with a cold startup.

Is this typical? A sign of trouble? Something to watch?

 

[Tom in Mo.]

Using ANY coolant is a red flag unless it's leaking onto the ground. I never have to add any coolant to any of the fleet from "using" it. Coolant shouldn't get used up in normal operation.

 

[Dr ken]

sounds to me like it was "hydro locked" leaking coolant in to the cylinder? That is a good way to bend a connecting rod

 

[Sean in PA]

So is this a 3 cylinder or 4 cylinder 4000?

 

[MarkB_MI]

Sounds like a bad head gasket.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 04:01:16 04/08/19) So is this a 3 cylinder or 4 cylinder 4000?

3 cylinder. Just like my 3000, which is a 3 cylinder gas.

I've had the 3000 for three haying seasons now, and it's always seeped a little coolant from the head gasket when it's cold, and then it dries up and seals when the engine gets warm. But it always runs like a top.

This 4000 is newer to me. I'm wondering if the bad thing about yesterday was that I just ran it for a couple of minutes the first time I started it...and the generator/fan/water pump belt was running loosely. Maybe leaving a little coolant to well up in the engine, and it never got warm enough to steam it off.

I'm almost certain it's a head gasket, but I would rather "manage" the issue at least for this summer and then lay the tractor up next winter.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Side note/curiosity:

I took the generator from both our Ford 4000 and our 2N down to a friend of ours who rebuilds starters, alternators and generators. Both generators were original and untouched. The 4000 is exactly 50 years old; which is sort of impressive, but the 2N's generator is 76 years old.

He showed me the insides of the 2N generator. After all of these years, the insulation on the windings just crumbled and flaked away.

The brushes on the 2N generator could clearly been seen to have the initial cursive script "Ford" symbol on them.

 

[lastcowboy32]

I'm wondering if the head gasket leak works both ways... if the tractor hydro locks during starting, my guess is that it's best to wait a while after the initial crank, in order to let the pressure dissipate...hopefully, whatever is in the cylinder will seep out under pressure either past one of the valves or into the head gasket?

I'm sort of reasoning to myself that the worst thing to do in that situation would be to immediately try to crank again?

 

[sotxbill]

Okay, its hydro locking,, meaning that trying to crank it will do SERIOUS damage. You will crack a piston, or bend the connecting rod between the piston and the crank shaft. even break the starter drive or strip the ring gear.

Trying to crank the engine will only do severe damage.

This tractor is OUT OF SERVICE untill you fix it.

Could be a leaking or blown head gasket, a warped head, a cracked head or damaged block.

You will be getting antifreeze into your oil and this will damage the crank shaft bearings and ruin the crankshaft and damage your camshaft.

Please dont crank it over anymore.

 

[Destroked 450]

Loosen up the oil pan drain plug and see if any coolant leaks out, if it does you have a issue that needs fixed right away before the crank and bearings are damaged.

If you have a pin hole in the side of a cylinder wall coolant will leak in, if the piston is parked above the hole when the engine's not running coolant will leak past the side of the piston into the oil pan.
If the piston happens to be parked below the pin hole coolant will pool on top of the piston and could cause a hydro lock condition when you try to start the engine.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 07:29:22 04/08/19)
Okay, its hydro locking,, meaning that trying to crank it will do SERIOUS damage. You will crack a piston, or bend the connecting rod between the piston and the crank shaft. even break the starter drive or strip the ring gear.

Trying to crank the engine will only do severe damage.

This tractor is OUT OF SERVICE untill you fix it.

Could be a leaking or blown head gasket, a warped head, a cracked head or damaged block.


That's my fear. Just wanted to verify.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 08:51:26 04/08/19)
Loosen up the oil pan drain plug and see if any coolant leaks out, if it does you have a issue that needs fixed right away before the crank and bearings are damaged.

If you have a pin hole in the side of a cylinder wall coolant will leak in, if the piston is parked above the hole when the engine's not running coolant will leak past the side of the piston into the oil pan.
If the piston happens to be parked below the pin hole coolant will pool on top of the piston and could cause a hydro lock condition when you try to start the engine.

Your guess is correct. I loosened the drain plug just enough to drip water, but not oil. About a half cup of water dripped out before it stopped dripping.

I haven't changed this tractor's oil since last summer. I was going to change it again before this haying season. So whatever water is in the oil is the cumulative amount since then.

The sides of the engine are dry. There is no visible leaking from the head gasket to the sides of the engine.

There appears to either be a head gasket leak of coolant into the cylinder, which is then seeping down past the rings over time when parked, or there is a pinhole in one of the cylinders itself.

Against previous advice about starting the tractor, I started it (it started fine) and moved it; because it has a loader on it, and it was parked someplace that would be next to impossible to move, without starting it up and lifting the loader and moving it under its own power.

It's now parked somewhere that I can remove the loader and tow the tractor out from under it, if I have to.

 

[sotxbill]

Sadly.. It needs attention. Loader is also a problem... and has to be removed. You almost need a loader to remove a loader, but I used two jacks to hold up the back of a 730 loader while I pushed the tractor out from under it, then had to move the jacks/jackstands to the other side of the front axle to fully get out from under the loader.. used cribbing to support the front of loader at the pump.. It worked but not recommended as the best/safest way to get there.

 

[RickB]

If he is EXTREMELY lucky. My money is on a porous cylinder wall. Was it water or coolant that you drained from the oil pan?

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 13:59:00 04/08/19) If he is EXTREMELY lucky. My money is on a porous cylinder wall. Was it water or coolant that you drained from the oil pan?

Definitely coolant.

 

[RickB]

Piinholed block. Drop the pan and pressurize the cooling system BEFORE you remove the head.

 

[Destroked 450]

Two things you can do that will allow you to move the tractor around without causing damage
Before starting the engine loosen the drain plug to allow any coolant to drip out, this will help prevent crank damage.
If the engine hydro locks when using the starter do not pull start it, you can remove the injectors and then crank the engine over to blow any liquids on top of the piston out ,then reinstall injectors enough to start the engine and move the tractor around to where you need it.
I highly doubt it's a leaking head gasket.
If the gasket where leaking enough for coolant at 7 psi to leak into a cylinder it would be leaking really bad with over 300 psi of compression pushing the other way when the engines running.

Drop the pan and look for a water trail on one of the cylinders, also pull the injectors and see which one moisture blows out of when cranking it over.
This will tell you which cylinder has a pin hole in it.
Unfortunately the only was to fix a pin hole in a cylinder is removing the engine and doing a full tear down so the block can be sleeved.
Sadly if one cylinder is that way the others may soon follow so it's advisable to sleeve every cylinder and do a full engine rebuild
Not cheap but once done the engine will last for many years.
It's been 19 years since rebuilding the engine on my 4000, 27 years since rebuilding the 201 diesel on my 4500.
A broken ring damaged a cylinder on my 72 model 4000SU 4 years ago, it's now sleeved and rebuilt.
I expect all of these tractors to outlast this 63 year old body.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 16:33:49 04/08/19) Piinholed block. Drop the pan and pressurize the cooling system BEFORE you remove the head.

What does this do for me?

 

[lastcowboy32]

Yes. I agree. I appreciate the value of a rebuild.

The only tractor on my farm right now that doesn't use a little coolant, or leak a little oil is our 76 year old Ford 2N. I did an in-frame rebuild on it three years ago, and it's been practically trouble free since then, with the exception of its generator needing to be rebuilt. But the generator was original. That has to be expected after 76 years.

 

[lastcowboy32]

My last comment was for Destroked. Not sure why quoting didn't work.

 

[RickB]

It will verify that you have a coolant leak involving a particular cylinder. Then when the head is removed and the head gasket, block deck and head
surface show no evidence of coolant entering the cylinder from the top you will know you have a porous cylinder wall.