Ford 850 5-speed trans rebuild - new bearings?

[Greg Reed]

I'm doing a complete rebuild of my 850 5-speed, to finally fix a broken 3rd gear (chipped teeth on mainshaft and countershaft). What would you guys do about replacing bearings? They all feel OK, look OK (ie no corrosion) - just spin freely. Would you just leave them in place, or try to source them all and replace? Not even sure how many there are yet - I guess 8 or 10? This would be a lot of extra work, and not small expense. But now would be the time...

In particular, the replacement (used) mainshaft and countershaft still have bearings on them. So that would be a 'mismatch' to the bearing races already in my other parts ie they didn't wear together. Would you worry about that?

Looking for helpful comments and advice, because I'm really on the fence about this. Thanks!

 

[docmirror]

With the caveat that I've never even been in a Ford tractor trans, here's my opinion. The bathtub curve of failure analysis says - leave them in if they feel good with no side to side slop, or rough spots. I'm fairly sure the bearings are common sizes on the inner and outer race, so they would be easy to find, and not costly. However, I worry about the quality of modern products with the reduction in mfg tech coming out of China, and being matched by other vendors to compete on price.

I would never accept any bearings made in China, and hoping I could find quality bearings made in US, or Japan, or the EU somewhere. Also, are the specs for each bearing avail? Get a bearing part number, and find out what you can source, but my vote is to leave it as found. Bearings have a very long life as long as they are lubricated right.

YMMV

 

[Greg Reed]

With the caveat that I've never even been in a Ford tractor trans, here's my opinion. The bell curve of failure analysis says - leave them in if they feel good with no side to side slop, or rough spots. I'm fairly sure the bearings are common sizes on the inner and outer race, so they would be easy to find, and not costly. However, I worry about the quality of modern products with the reduction in mfg tech coming out of China, and being matched by other vendors to compete on price.

I would never accept any bearings made in China, and hoping I could find quality bearings made in US, or Japan, or the EU somewhere. Also, are the specs for each bearing avail? Get a bearing part number, and find out what you can source, but my vote is to leave it as found. Bearings have a very long life as long as they are lubricated right.

YMMV

That makes sense. I have seen one YouTube that has quite a few of the bearing part numbers mentioned - and of course the bearings themselves are usually marked. I just haven't researched that in detail yet. No reason to doubt the lubrication, everything inside the trans looks pretty good, especially considering it may be the first time opened up in 70 years!

As for Chinese bearings ... I know what you are saying. But ... having worked in China quite a bit (auto industry), I wouldn't write off all "Made in China" products. Things have changed A LOT in their manufacturing industry in the last 10-15 years. Of course, if a US-based aftermarket distributor buys any old bearing he can find on Alibaba, lowest price and no attention to quality, and resell via the usual tractor supply websites .... then it's easy for "Made in China" to get the bad reputation. Things there are made at different price points, different quality levels. Buy at lowest price - don't expect the highest quality. Besides that, all the global bearing manufacturers have operations in China - and of course they protect their brand name with their quality systems. OK, rant over

 

[Hobo,NC]

I'm doing a complete rebuild of my 850 5-speed, to finally fix a broken 3rd gear (chipped teeth on mainshaft and countershaft). What would you guys do about replacing bearings? They all feel OK, look OK (ie no corrosion) - just spin freely. Would you just leave them in place, or try to source them all and replace? Not even sure how many there are yet - I guess 8 or 10? This would be a lot of extra work, and not small expense. But now would be the time...

In particular, the replacement (used) mainshaft and countershaft still have bearings on them. So that would be a 'mismatch' to the bearing races already in my other parts ie they didn't wear together. Would you worry about that?

Looking for helpful comments and advice, because I'm really on the fence about this. Thanks!

Back in the day when I did not have the money if it looked good it had proven itself to be good it was usable (my excuse). You can not say that about a new bearing it has not proved itself. If it was a customer pay job I warranted it would get new bearings cuzz I am not warranting your bearings. Your call, I will say I have not seen many beaning in a 70 year old tractor that did not suffer from water in the oil.

 

[Bern]

I'm doing a complete rebuild of my 850 5-speed, to finally fix a broken 3rd gear (chipped teeth on mainshaft and countershaft). What would you guys do about replacing bearings? They all feel OK, look OK (ie no corrosion) - just spin freely. Would you just leave them in place, or try to source them all and replace? Not even sure how many there are yet - I guess 8 or 10? This would be a lot of extra work, and not small expense. But now would be the time...

In particular, the replacement (used) mainshaft and countershaft still have bearings on them. So that would be a 'mismatch' to the bearing races already in my other parts ie they didn't wear together. Would you worry about that?

Looking for helpful comments and advice, because I'm really on the fence about this. Thanks!

If reusing tapered roller bearings that still look good, I simply set them to the lower end of the preload spec, or just shoot for zero.

 

[docmirror]

That makes sense. I have seen one YouTube that has quite a few of the bearing part numbers mentioned - and of course the bearings themselves are usually marked. I just haven't researched that in detail yet. No reason to doubt the lubrication, everything inside the trans looks pretty good, especially considering it may be the first time opened up in 70 years!

As for Chinese bearings ... I know what you are saying. But ... having worked in China quite a bit (auto industry), I wouldn't write off all "Made in China" products. Things have changed A LOT in their manufacturing industry in the last 10-15 years. Of course, if a US-based aftermarket distributor buys any old bearing he can find on Alibaba, lowest price and no attention to quality, and resell via the usual tractor supply websites .... then it's easy for "Made in China" to get the bad reputation. Things there are made at different price points, different quality levels. Buy at lowest price - don't expect the highest quality. Besides that, all the global bearing manufacturers have operations in China - and of course they protect their brand name with their quality systems. OK, rant over

Your experience with things made in China is the complete opposite of mine. I just bought three same model, same mfg of outdoor fan/light combo. All three failed within 2 months, and all three had different failure modes. I had to buy a Chinese carbide burr because there was nothing made anywhere else of the type I wanted. My carbide burrs usually last for years working on mild steel and tempered Alum. The one from China failed after about 6 hours of use. Just dulled to the point it would not cut even Alum anymore. Worthless spit. The hardness scale of a carbide burr is very high, and these were advertised as being Brinell 710, and I bet they wouldn't even test at 600, maybe as low as 550.

If you want to replace your bearings, I will say again - do NOT get generic Chinese bearings. I'm guessing the bearings are ABEC 3 rated, slow speed, and constant lube. If it comes from China, they know it's a loose bearing already, and might just rate it a 3, but really for the spec it'll be a 1. But - it's your tractor, and I have never been in one before.

YMMV

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'm doing a complete rebuild of my 850 5-speed, to finally fix a broken 3rd gear (chipped teeth on mainshaft and countershaft). What would you guys do about replacing bearings? They all feel OK, look OK (ie no corrosion) - just spin freely. Would you just leave them in place, or try to source them all and replace? Not even sure how many there are yet - I guess 8 or 10? This would be a lot of extra work, and not small expense. But now would be the time...

In particular, the replacement (used) mainshaft and countershaft still have bearings on them. So that would be a 'mismatch' to the bearing races already in my other parts ie they didn't wear together. Would you worry about that?

Looking for helpful comments and advice, because I'm really on the fence about this. Thanks!

Its 75 years old and obclviuosly seen some (ab)use. If I had to go to the trouble of tearing it apart to fix broken gears it gets all new bearings and seals when going back together. I doubt there is anything special in there that would make it a huge expense.

JMO,

TOH

 

[Greg Reed]

Your experience with things made in China is the complete opposite of mine. I just bought three same model, same mfg of outdoor fan/light combo. All three failed within 2 months, and all three had different failure modes. I had to buy a Chinese carbide burr because there was nothing made anywhere else of the type I wanted. My carbide burrs usually last for years working on mild steel and tempered Alum. The one from China failed after about 6 hours of use. Just dulled to the point it would not cut even Alum anymore. Worthless spit. The hardness scale of a carbide burr is very high, and these were advertised as being Brinell 710, and I bet they wouldn't even test at 600, maybe as low as 550.

If you want to replace your bearings, I will say again - do NOT get generic Chinese bearings. I'm guessing the bearings are ABEC 3 rated, slow speed, and constant lube. If it comes from China, they know it's a loose bearing already, and might just rate it a 3, but really for the spec it'll be a 1. But - it's your tractor, and I have never been in one before.

YMMV

I do understand your point & frustration with Chinese stuff - there is certainly some crap made there. And quality control is variable. Really depends a lot on the customer/buyer, and how they control it. Recently I've been looking into how Harbor Freight controls & selects new suppliers, due to some work with Vietnamese manufacturers. Basically, they have almost no control, and squeeze the price. So when their stuff has problems, and people see "Made in China", they blame China. But actually, HF's sourcing strategy is at least 50% to blame. Going away from aftermarket stuff, looking at the automotive component suppliers (I'm also very close to this, work-wise) - I can assure you that some suppliers are absolutely world class. Better than many people would like to admit, especially for EV components. But I digress ....

Back to bearings ... have you heard about a company called AMPEC, selling via bearingsdirect.com? They source from China, but they claim to have just a few partners, and control the quality directly. Not just buy on Alibaba. Their price is ~$30, vs $100 for a JP/US made bearing via Grainger, for example.

 

[Greg Reed]

To close the loop ... I did decide to get new bearings & seals. With a lot of research, I found all the standard numbers, and found they were the cheapest on zoro.com - for NTN-Bower & Timken. Except for one that was $100 on that site .... found another place selling "old unused stock" that had it in the original box for $17
Later I'll post my file with all the part numbers - perhaps that will be a helpful resource for the next guy working on a 5-speed.