Ford 850

[WildApex]

Hi Everyone!
This has been a long time coming, I have been using this forum for at least a couple years and didnt realize that I wasnt registered . There is such good useful and in-depth information on this forum so Im glad to finally be a part of it. I bought my Ford 850 a few years ago and in the process of trying to fix which probably 100 other owners had thrown together, my searches almost always end up on this site. Currently, I have been working on the wiring for approximately 3 to 4 months. It has most definitely not been easy due to affordability and finding information on this seemingly rare creature. Today, thinking everything was correct and finished (had even spent money on a Professional to help guide me) but ended up with the same problem as today; pushed the button and Nothing . Its probably having a wire crossed somewhere or something in the button, so Im hoping to find the solution here.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

Welcome aboard. There is nothing rare about these old FORDS. Millions were built, pretty standard, basic systems and setups. Define Professional. Many opinions and guesses abound. Know the facts. Get the ESSENTIAL MANUALS. Yours is a typical problem because fellas 'think' they know what they are doing but in reality are only making wild a$$ guesses and using their own methods, often incorrect. An 850 is a model line based on the 800 Series, with 8 defined as a 172 Red Tiger OHV Engine. The 5 defines it as 5-SPD transmission with 3-PT lift and non-live PTO. The 0 means it is Hundred Series built between 1955 and 1957. ALL FORDS were designed using the 6-VOLT/POSITIVE GROUND electrical system. In the late 1950's FORD released the diesel models and these used the 12-VOLT/NEG GRN system but still used a GEN and a VR. Many FORD's from the N-SERIES onup have been converted to 12-V/NEG GRN steups, but many are/were done incorrectly. Here is where the unknowing fellas enter in. FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to incorrect, mucked up wiring, regardless if 6V or 12V but most are from attempted 12V switch jobs. Providing all wiring is correct, when you turn the Ignition Key to ON and press the Neutral Safety Start Pushbutton and nothing happens or just a click on the Relay (Solenoid) is heard, it is a good sign your battery is dead. Take it to a local shop and have it tested on their machine. Read up on Specific Gravity. When battery sets for more than a week it will start to deplete cells. A good float charger (DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER JR typical); not a garage type trickle charger. A shop will test within 5 minutes and tell you if battery is FUBAR and needs replacing and most decent shops will not charge a fee for this; pun intended ; > ) GRIN. Wiring must be verified before you turn that key. Get copies of your original OWNER's MANUAL; the I&T FO-20 Service Manual; and the 53-59 MPC (Master Parts Catalog). Other documents like JMOR's wiring PICTGRAMS are required as they have both the correct 6V and the 12V wiring diagrams. There are no FORD Manuals that outline 12V setups because there were none at the time as Ford didn't use 12V. This is why many try to wire themselves. There are maybe two correct ways to wire a 12V setup and a hundred ways to wire incorrectly. One must have the essential manuals and fully understand the 6V/POS GRN system before switching over to 12V. Start there, and STOP buying new parts and replacing willy nilly without performing true root cause problem solving methods. Determine if original part is defective first. All systems on a Ford were designed to be rebuilt over and over anyway and should be your first choice - new stuff is often Chi-Comm made junk. This is a newbie/rookie (and some oldies too) mistake. Don't make guesses and take any shortcuts. Start here. You don't need any so-called professionals. You can do this yourself if'N ya have mechanical & some electrical knowledge and read the manuals first. FYI: The '01 Series changed a few things but were basically the same. The AMMETER was dumped in exchange for a GEN CHARGE DASH LAMP, a FUEL GAUGE with sender unit was added to replace the AMP GAUGE on dash, and all '01's now had power steering standard. ALL wiring was the same from the NAA thru 600/800 Series til '57.

FORD TRACTOR 600 & 800 ESSENTIAL MANUALS:

Tim Daley (MI)

 

[petertay]

Tim D, your patient, thorough, competent and complete replies are always appreciated. I, too, rely on this site, as I have had working Fords since my first 8N in 1970. I check this site almost daily. Thank you.

 

[Destroked 450]

800 series Ford tractor was very popular and the 850 was a model I grew up on, it was our primary tractor for nearly 20 years

Probably 90% of the non cranking issues I ve read about on this site concerning these tractors has resulted from the wrong starter relay being installed

These tractors use a relay with a isolated ground were all Ford cars, trucks and 65/later tractors use a relay with grounded base

Easy way to check is to jump the small S terminal to the large post the battery cable is connected to
If the relay clicks or the engine cranks over you have the wrong relay

 

[Jim L WA]

Besides what Destroked450 said, if the large battery cables on the solenoid are reversed, you will get a no crank because when you push the start button it is just passing ground to the stater motor.

 

[WildApex]

Hopefully this goes through, my attempts to respond to
everyone have failed so far.

Destroked,
THANK YOU!!!!! This is EXACTLY the type of advice I need.

 

[MarkB_MI]

Make sure you have the tractor in neutral before you start troubleshooting this problem! If you inadvertently crank the engine while it's in gear, it could start and run over you. Many folks have crippled or killed this way.

The starting circuit is quite simple on your tractor. If you don't own a multimeter, buy one. You can buy a decent digital multimeter at Home Depot for less than fifty bucks. With a meter, you should be able to quickly find where you're losing voltage (or ground).

 

[Lynn Patrick]

"my searches almost always end up on this site."
So you know the depth of knowledge & help on this site! A little more info would help. Is it still 6 volt or 12? Has the solenoid been replaced? What parts have you changed? Any extra info will help because we all have probably done the same MAYBE learned from it!

 

[WildApex]

Hi Lynn!
Yes, there is tons of information. The post was intended as my
hello post and I have tried multiple times to respond to all the
messages but only one will go through so Im hoping this one
does.

It was converted to a 12 V previously, and it was an incredible
rats nest, the wiring and multiple parts were thrown together to
make it work. So, I simplified it and I have a schematic picture
that I will try to load; please pardon the crude drawing, its a
rough draft.
The key switch, solenoid, terminal block, 12 V internally
resistant coil, starter, battery, battery cable (positive), and
ammeter I have all replaced due to issues with them all. Pretty
sure its either the floor switch, I have a wire connected
incorrectly or the solenoid- weather hasnt permitted me to test
them again.
I appreciate your input and love that youre not assuming
anything! (We all know what ASSUME Means LOL).

 

[Lynn Patrick]

That starter button ("floor switch"??) is the easiest to test as all it does is ground that wire. Just pull the rubber cover off - if it hasn't been lost w/so many others - & stick a screwdriver between it & the tranny cover & see if it turns over.
Then there's that solenoid. It's often quite hard to get that new kid behind the counter to actually look in the book to see if the one he's selling you is wired the way you need it. It needs to be activated by grounding the small wire, not charging it! It also can be hooked up backwards & won't work (don't ask any of us how we know that!).

This post was edited by Lynn Patrick on 06/13/2023 at 03:00 pm.

 

[docmirror]

I'm pretty sure this is the right solenoid:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123829323036?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D250320%26meid%3D8f9cf04a0b4b490b96a017c08cd234d2%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D384662276787%26itm%3D123829323036%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithLambda85AllKnnRecallsAndCassiniVisualRankerWithIsoCalib&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A1238293230368f9cf04a0b4b490b96a017c08cd234d2%7Cenc%3AAQAIAAABQJhgQCVQMNiMdHWIfVoOoEEV17BTrzrJIBLpH%252B7G1tmr6LbW6GxCi5cJVuKARaIw8u8a18iuW1XB4GguG2sb7sx96fY6TQxzseCoM4VvEpmPcYoYmZxMJ1MbToI5%252B1xtONwHAxS0FuuEHvWcJFpTpAjFu01KN5JGHYU7Ag4I%252FdAWStHY%252Fd4F9jdqwEaJXAC6tellBVUsoPk4Vme0ttw8x3hE7MIzW1Dm9K0Z2iQ%252Bx1CVpOcSvuFs3DF5tTzlkQHAEoQH2KBsUUk5C3OP74c6E%252Bdb%252BXfhykjRqADzxT7jL6kcj0L2bwp%252FnianEo3VpHJiU61jTlcy%252BkB2ssL9rX1xGTNS5r6E8Y8KQKDUr6Mpud0NBPMyoLfhDa4uG3Ahp1NJfBKx6u1%252B9LkAdzQOp6uj%252BsYHK76hS9aoO0Ui6IbcYpos%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675

If your solenoid small pins are labelled "S" and "I" it is the wrong one. The correct solenoid will not have an "I" terminal. It may be labelled G for ground, or possible N. Also, I've had trouble with the pushbutton on my tractor not contacting well. Just ground that wire on the side as noted already and test it that way.

 

[JMOR]

Actually the 2-small terminal is not correct for a 850...single small terminal was factory. '01 series went to 2 small terminal type.
This statement is also incorrect (If your solenoid small pins are labelled S and I it is the wrong one.), as many solenoid makers use the same case, with S & I molded into them,
for '01 type solenoid as well as for the ignition ballast bypass type.

 

[docmirror]

(quoted from post at 08:26:20 06/14/23) Actually the 2-small terminal is not correct for a 850...single small terminal was factory. '01 series went to 2 small terminal type.
This statement is also incorrect (If your solenoid small pins are labelled S and I it is the wrong one.), as many solenoid makers use the same case, with S & I molded into them,
for '01 type solenoid as well as for the ignition ballast bypass type.

All of the single small term I have found have a grounded case. This will not work as the circuit was always be live to ground, and the motor will run continuous. If there is a non-grounded base, single terminal I would like to find one.

The solenoid I linked will work, because I have that exact one on my 860, and it does not have the "I" for 'ignition' molded into the body. It is also not grounded case, and if you enlarge the picture, you can note that there is no molded S or I in the case. One terminal is for 12V and the other terminal is for ground, and can be connected to the wire from the start button to only complete the circuit when the button is held down.

I don't think the non-grounded case, single small terminal is made anymore, but if so, it's going to be very hard to find.

 

[Sean in PA]

If there is a non-grounded base, single terminal I would like to find one.

Our host here at YT sells them:

[u:b5e393d5a1]Link to 3post solenoid for NAA through hundred series here on Yesterdays Tractors[/u:b5e393d5a1]

 

[WildApex]

Hi again!
The solenoid Ive installed is a grounded base and worked
perfectly before the upgrades, its the same as the solenoid that
you mentioned (thank you) in exception to the I terminal which
is OPTIONAL to use.
The terminal block is also not grounded.
Im going to try removing the short wire that goes from the
ignition terminal on the solenoid to the terminal block and see
what happens. That was actually a question that I ignition
terminal on the solenoid to the terminal block and see what
happens. That was actually a question that I asked myself
because it was not on the original.
All you people are really helping with this and I cant express
how thankful I am!

 

[WildApex]

JMOR!!! You sir are amazing! Would you mind telling me how to find your schematics?
Thanks for your help.

 

[JMOR]

Remove the * and & and this link will get you to many of the diagrams (1939 to 1952 Ford tractors. Most other diagrams that I have posted came from manuals (that I may or may not have modified) or from other people's drawings.....those have no single repository other than one of my computers.
https://www.ntr*act&orcl*ub.com/howtos/pdfs/JMORs-Wiring-Pictograms.pdf

 

[WildApex]

Terrific, I appreciate it. Did you happen to eyeball my crude
drawing? Im curious if you noticed anything wrong..?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:22:49 06/14/23) Terrific, I appreciate it. Did you happen to eyeball my crude
drawing? Im curious if you noticed anything wrong..?

ormally ammeters are wired so as to be "Net" reading, so as to indicate + current for current flowing into battery from alternator and show Neg reading for currents flowing out of battery to loads. To make this happen, one side of ammeter is connected only to battery and the other ammeter terminal feeds all loads and has alternator connected to it.

 

[RodinNS]

JMOR has shown you the correct way to wire the ammeter. Essentially all current to/from the battery EXCEPT starter cranking current must pass through the ammeter. Otherwise you have no meaningful way to monitor battery charge status.

As far as the relay is concerned... I would not fuss too much about it. I expect the type you have unless it was ordered specifically for that tractor from CNH is likely a typical automotive Ford relay. If that's the case it's activate by switched battery + from the key. If you'd sooner not buy another relay (I wouldn't), then find a headlight (cube) relay and pigtail. Wire terminal 30 and 86 together in the pigtail getting supply from the switched side of the key. Wire #87 to the starter relay and wire #86 to the starter button on the transmission cover.
Use a volt meter to confirm that you have switched power into the relay and check for continuity to ground on the button/wire when the button is depressed before you hook that wire.
Usually you can find a relay from a scrap car and I just wire up a pigtail from a terminal kit to keep it simple or you can go to a truck parts store and get that stuff.

Rod