Ford 8n Not Cranking

[habeasj]

Hi all, I got a tractor yesterday that I'm trying to chase down an electrical gremlin on. It's a 48 8n and it's not starting, cranking, or even clicking at this point. I went to look at it before buying the other day and it fired right up. It was towed about 2 1/2 hours through the rain and wouldn't start when it got here, had to pull start it. After it sat for a couple hours and dried out I tried again, fired right up and ran like a top. Fast forward to this evening when I try to start it, I press the button and get a "click" (like a dead battery). Tried again a few times but now I'm not even getting a "click."

For a little more context: the seller is a mechanic and went through the wiring (including the distributor) to get things working as good as possible while he used it on his property. It has a 6 volt system but with a 1 wire alternator. That said, to get past the charging issues with the 1 wire conversion he wired in a battery tender. He said he never had an issue so long as he plugged in the tender. I plugged it in after driving it yesterday and the charger was green when I tried starting it today. I plugged it back in and now it's back to charging. I know those tenders probably aren't a reliable source for diagnosing a dead battery, but nevertheless it seems odd that I wouldn't get any signs of life even if the battery was drained.

I'm one of those guys who can turn a wrench alright but doesn't have the faintest clue when it comes to electrical problems, so any help as to where to start looking would be appreciated

 

[old]

Hi all, I got a tractor yesterday that I'm trying to chase down an electrical gremlin on. It's a 48 8n and it's not starting, cranking, or even clicking at this point. I went to look at it before buying the other day and it fired right up. It was towed about 2 1/2 hours through the rain and wouldn't start when it got here, had to pull start it. After it sat for a couple hours and dried out I tried again, fired right up and ran like a top. Fast forward to this evening when I try to start it, I press the button and get a "click" (like a dead battery). Tried again a few times but now I'm not even getting a "click."

For a little more context: the seller is a mechanic and went through the wiring (including the distributor) to get things working as good as possible while he used it on his property. It has a 6 volt system but with a 1 wire alternator. That said, to get past the charging issues with the 1 wire conversion he wired in a battery tender. He said he never had an issue so long as he plugged in the tender. I plugged it in after driving it yesterday and the charger was green when I tried starting it today. I plugged it back in and now it's back to charging. I know those tenders probably aren't a reliable source for diagnosing a dead battery, but nevertheless it seems odd that I wouldn't get any signs of life even if the battery was drained.

I'm one of those guys who can turn a wrench alright but doesn't have the faintest clue when it comes to electrical problems, so any help as to where to start looking would be appreciated

Good chance the battery cable connections need to be cleaned and tighten both end of each

 

[habeasj]

Good chance the battery cable connections need to be cleaned and tighten both end of each

10-4, will give it a shot

 

[used red MN]

Hello “ha..”, welcome to YT! The suggestion from old is probably spot on. I would like you to clarify one thing. Does your battery have 3 caps on top? If not your system is a 12 volt. Although “one wire 6 volt” alternators do exist they come at a premium price and are usually disguised or built to look like and original Ford 6 volt generator. One wire “12 volt” alternators are quite a bit more likely to be installed on run of the mill painted-up, re-do or spruced up tractors.

 

[habeasj]

Hello “ha..”, welcome to YT! The suggestion from old is probably spot on. I would like you to clarify one thing. Does your battery have 3 caps on top? If not your system is a 12 volt. Although “one wire 6 volt” alternators do exist they come at a premium price and are usually disguised or built to look like and original Ford 6 volt generator. One wire “12 volt” alternators are quite a bit more likely to be installed on run of the mill painted-up, re-do or spruced up tractors.

The battery does indeed have the three caps. It's a Super Start with part number "1J" and that's a 6 volt. I'm not totally sure what alternator I have on the side of my tractor now that you mentioned most one wire 6 volt are meant to look original. This one looks like any ol 12 volt alternator, mounted in the same way a 12v mod would place it on an N series (at least from my limited knowledge). That's one of the pictures from the ad showing the alternator, which made me very confused when I looked inside and saw the 6v battery haha

 

[used red MN]

The battery does indeed have the three caps. It's a Super Start with part number "1J" and that's a 6 volt. I'm not totally sure what alternator I have on the side of my tractor now that you mentioned most one wire 6 volt are meant to look original. This one looks like any ol 12 volt alternator, mounted in the same way a 12v mod would place it on an N series (at least from my limited knowledge). That's one of the pictures from the ad showing the alternator, which made me very confused when I looked inside and saw the 6v battery haha

Okay, I don’t want to really call out the knowledge of the individual that you bought your tractor from and 6 volt alternators seem to be more available then I thought. I would suggest looking over that alternator for any kind of labeling that would confirm it is indeed rated a 6 volt. Maybe take some closer pictures of it and post them. If you have a volt meter I would suggest checking the voltage on the terminal on the back of it while it is running at a fast idle. Also tell us where the other end of the wire that connects to the back of the alternator connects into the tractor’s system. If you can’t verify the output of the alternator I would suggest taking it off and take it to an auto parts store for testing to see what it outputs. I can see the fan belt is very loose. Could be someone thought that a loose belt was a way to lower the output of a 12 volt alternator to work on a 6 volt system. That is not a proper method by a long shot. Also it will be important to know if the ignition distributor for the spark plugs sets on the front of the engine by the fan or angles up out of the side of the engine?

 

[habeasj]

TL;DR: got the tractor running with a jump pack. I think the alternator is the culprit, but it ran without issue for about 30-45 minutes.
.
So I took the battery and alternator into town to be tested. Neither Orielly's or Autozone could test the alternator because it doesn't have a parts number on it. But an employee at the Autozone (who owns a Jubilee) suggested to not worry about the battery since (quoting here) "You should be able to refill it with distilled water every once in awhile and keep it running for decades." Anyone know what he's talking about?
.
To answer your questions Red... the alternator has a serial number but no parts number or any other identitying marks to tell if its 6 or 12 volt. I tried putting a multimeter to it but I don't think I did it right because I couldn't get a reading. The wire is running back to the positive battery terminal. I'm pretty sure this is a side mount distributor, but I'll let y'all confirm that.

Okay, I don’t want to really call out the knowledge of the individual that you bought your tractor from and 6 volt alternators seem to be more available then I thought. I would suggest looking over that alternator for any kind of labeling that would confirm it is indeed rated a 6 volt. Maybe take some closer pictures of it and post them. If you have a volt meter I would suggest checking the voltage on the terminal on the back of it while it is running at a fast idle. Also tell us where the other end of the wire that connects to the back of the alternator connects into the tractor’s system. If you can’t verify the output of the alternator I would suggest taking it off and take it to an auto parts store for testing to see what it outputs. I can see the fan belt is very loose. Could be someone thought that a loose belt was a way to lower the output of a 12 volt alternator to work on a 6 volt system. That is not a proper method by a long shot. Also it will be important to know if the ignition distributor for the spark plugs sets on the front of the engine by the fan or angles up out of the side of the engine?

 

[Mad Farmer]

I think that is a 3-wire 12V Delco, without the exciter wire hooked up. I could be mistaken. It won't charge without the exciter wire hooked up. Not sure if Delco ever made those in 6V?

Your tractor has a front mount distributor. Pictured in the 3rd alternator picture.

Some more pictures of your wiring would help. Where does the wire to the alternator hook up? Also a picture of the wiring behind the dash.

Might want to post this in the 9 2 8N forum.

 

[habeasj]

I think that is a 3-wire 12V Delco, without the exciter wire hooked up. I could be mistaken.

Spot on! I guess I shoulda looked a little closer

 

[Mad Farmer]

Spot on! I guess I shoulda looked a little closer

I think you are going to want a 12V battery and wire in the exciter wire with an inline diode or charge light. Someone will be by to post some wiring diagrams.

Also need to sort out the coil if it is original 6V. If so you need an inline resistor to your hot wire to the coil.

 

[used red MN]

I see some stamped numbers on it can you make those out. If so post them and run a web search on them. I think there is a good chance it will reveal what the alternator actually is. I can’t be certain since we don’t know if this is a 6 volt alternator or not. It certainly looks like this is a normal Delco 10si 12 volt 3 wire alternator that is commonly used on 6 to 12 tractor conversions. If it is the following may be one of your problems. The wire you see looped around from the back terminal nut plugging into a side spade terminal labeled could be causing a constant draw or drain of power from your battery. This is a partly correct connection for this type of alternator, the incorrect part is that it should plug into the other terminal labeled 2. The 1 terminal should be powered by wire that connects to the tractor’s ignition switch that has power only when the key is on. It should have a diode or an incandescent bulb running through it circuit for it to operate properly. This is maybe above your knowledge but I am attaching some wiring diagrams. The center 2 show examples of how the wiring should look on your tractor if it was converted to a 12 volt system.
Ford wiring diagrams

 

[used red MN]

Spot on! I guess I shoulda looked a little closer

Okay I tend agree with Mad Farmer, as you can see in the post I just made that I also referred to it by the same name. That cast in name only identifies the case as a common General Motors Delco brand. The internals of the alternator can be configured in many different ways even to the point of changing it to a 6 volt alternator. In my opinion if someone did alter the internals to change it to 6 volt operation they made a pitiful mistake by not placing permanent identification on it to inform others that this is what it is. Is the 6 volt battery in it connected negative ground or negative battery post to the chassis? Does the terminal at the alternator read 6 volt battery voltage with the machine turned off, iff so that is correct. I have some ideas of how I would proceed to check the alternator for being 12 volt unit, but to some they might seem a bit sketchy or risky. For now I will stand by and see what others suggest. The belt has to be exchanged for a smaller one that can be tightened properly to test the alternator output on the tractor. My gut feeling is reading about 85 to 90 percent sure that the alternator is a 12 volt unit.

 

[wore out]

I see some stamped numbers on it can you make those out. If so post them and run a web search on them. I think there is a good chance it will reveal what the alternator actually is. I can’t be certain since we don’t know if this is a 6 volt alternator or not. It certainly looks like this is a normal Delco 10si 12 volt 3 wire alternator that is commonly used on 6 to 12 tractor conversions. If it is the following may be one of your problems. The wire you see looped around from the back terminal nut plugging into a side spade terminal labeled could be causing a constant draw or drain of power from your battery. This is a partly correct connection for this type of alternator, the incorrect part is that it should plug into the other terminal labeled 2. The 1 terminal should be powered by wire that connects to the tractor’s ignition switch that has power only when the key is on. It should have a diode or an incandescent bulb running through it circuit for it to operate properly. This is maybe above your knowledge but I am attaching some wiring diagrams. The center 2 show examples of how the wiring should look on your tractor if it was converted to a 12 volt system.
Ford wiring diagrams

"I see some stamped numbers on it can you make those out."

Typically the stamped numbers don't mean any more than the "Delco Remy" name, as rebuilders pay no attention to keeping the unit "correct" for those numbers and only VERY seldom grind off the now incorrect ones.

I can't say I've EVER seen a rebuilt alternator with the correct numbers stamped on (there may have been some exceptions on units put out by Delco), MOST rebuilts have only a paper or foil tag stuck on them to identify what they were assembled as.

Roughly the time frame that they would have been used on GM vehicles is 1972 to 1987, so the newest ones are 37 years old, and, likely have been rebuilt a time or two,

 

[used red MN]

"I see some stamped numbers on it can you make those out."

Typically the stamped numbers don't mean any more than the "Delco Remy" name, as rebuilders pay no attention to keeping the unit "correct" for those numbers and only VERY seldom grind off the now incorrect ones.

I can't say I've EVER seen a rebuilt alternator with the correct numbers stamped on (there may have been some exceptions on units put out by Delco), MOST rebuilts have only a paper or foil tag stuck on them to identify what they were assembled as.

Roughly the time frame that they would have been used on GM vehicles is 1972 to 1987, so the newest ones are 37 years old, and, likely have been rebuilt a time or two,

Sometimes stamped numbed like that are found on rebuilt alternators. Such as BarnyardE often claims they come over in a container. Then either they where stamped when the container was loaded or whoever buys them gets the same number stamped on their lot as they are taken out. Sometimes those numbers will produce an identity of the alternator. Is it more miss than hit, probably.

 

[used red MN]

I will come clean on my suggestion. Get the belt fixed so it has proper tension. In this case you should get very minimal pulley slip when you place your thumb on the alternator fan and push with a lot of force to turn the alternator. If the engine is wore some it should turn before to belt slips. Here’s the “sketchy” test process to check for a 12 volt alternator. Disconnect the wire from the alternator terminal and tape up. Make a second wire like the loop one already on it and run it to the 2 spade terminal, tighten the terminal nut. Bring a vehicle with a 12 volt battery close to the tractor, you will be hooking jumper cables from the vehicle battery to the alternator, stop engine on the vehicle. Connect negative (black) jumper on 12 volt vehicle battery and to frame of tractor. Connect positive (red) to post of 12 volt battery. Now lightly touch the red jumper clamp to the nut on the alternator. If it makes a lot of sparking when the touching the terminal stop the process and more investigation is needed. If no sparking clamp the red jumper clamp on the terminal nut. Connect your meter to the vehicle’s 12 volt battery. Note volt reading 12.7 or so. Now start the tractor engine and rev it full throttle. Now read the 12 volt battery voltage. If it now reads 13 plus volts you have a working 12 volt alternator and it should not be connected to a 6 volt battery. If it shows no change in the vehicles 12 volt battery voltage more investigation is needed.

 

[Jim.ME]

Spot on! I guess I shoulda looked a little closer

If it is still a Delco Remy front housing, the part number would have been stamped in the area under the adjusting capscrew. It would be a 7 digit number, stamped (not raised) into the housing. The amperage rating would be stamped there as well (like 37A, or 63A, etc.



Is there a real auto electric repair shop in your area? That would be the place to have it checked.

Edit: It looks like the housing has been ground away to make room for that adjusting bracket. If so, they may have ground away at least part of the numbers.

 

[Janicholson]

Hi all, I got a tractor yesterday that I'm trying to chase down an electrical gremlin on. It's a 48 8n and it's not starting, cranking, or even clicking at this point. I went to look at it before buying the other day and it fired right up. It was towed about 2 1/2 hours through the rain and wouldn't start when it got here, had to pull start it. After it sat for a couple hours and dried out I tried again, fired right up and ran like a top. Fast forward to this evening when I try to start it, I press the button and get a "click" (like a dead battery). Tried again a few times but now I'm not even getting a "click."

For a little more context: the seller is a mechanic and went through the wiring (including the distributor) to get things working as good as possible while he used it on his property. It has a 6 volt system but with a 1 wire alternator. That said, to get past the charging issues with the 1 wire conversion he wired in a battery tender. He said he never had an issue so long as he plugged in the tender. I plugged it in after driving it yesterday and the charger was green when I tried starting it today. I plugged it back in and now it's back to charging. I know those tenders probably aren't a reliable source for diagnosing a dead battery, but nevertheless it seems odd that I wouldn't get any signs of life even if the battery was drained.

I'm one of those guys who can turn a wrench alright but doesn't have the faintest clue when it comes to electrical problems, so any help as to where to start looking would be appreciated

He never had an issue as long as he plugged in the tender. Well that means things aren't right. Tenders are intended to keep a battery at full charge over a period of months, not recharge a battery getting low. So here goes my thinking. a one wire alternator and a standard alternator look the same. A modified alternator to make 6 volts (with no stamped in or painted on info Positive or negative ground looks the same as original unmodified Delco. If the tractor was operated for substantial time with 12v into the original ignition, it would fail from excess current. I agree with the idea of testing the alternator for output. I would disconnect the main terminal with the yellow wire, and tape the wire. I would leave the jumper from terminal 2 to the output in place. (tighten the belt!!). I would use a vehicle to assess it further by disconnecting the vehicle battery (one post) to isolate that battery from the vehicles electronics and charging system. Then use jumper cables to connect the vehicle battery to the alternator output stud and to ground. Run the tractor. It may take high RPM to get the alternator to charge, (a tendency of one wire alternators). The jumper senses output voltage, and should limit the output to 14.2 to 14.6 volts or so. . If so it is a good one wire alternator. Now it is time to replace the battery and make sure the lights are 12v and the amp meter is working correctly.
If No output, (difference from running to not running measured at the vehicle battery) I would (with it all hooked up with the test battery)use a jumper wire with a 1/4 inch spade terminal on one end pushed onto the terminal, and bare on the other, make a brief connection to the output post to the #1 spade terminal. this would be the same as having the ignition give a signal to excite the alternator. If this turns it on and it stays on, charging, it is a good 3 wire alternator. and replacing the battery is in order as above. If this works, let us know so we can assist getting it wired to operate on its own. Jim