Help a po boy out . Please !

[Graham626]

While pulling a disk with my dad"s 1940 9N he purchased about 4 years ago, the engine went into to turbo mode. Quickly turned the key off and found the linkage from the govenor to carb off. Put it back and made a couple more rounds, same thing. Picked up a new linkage and it did it again, except this time the linkage was still on. Now it wouldn"t start. Found distributor not turning, no spark. Looooong story short, found teeth on pressed on timing gear damaged. Had to replace with bolt on gear and different cam shaft. Govenor never did seem to work right when pulling a load, so took it apart and found shaft broken. Suspect this was the start of all the problem. Picked up a nice used govenor and installed it with new plugs, wires, cap, button, points, & gaskets. Cleaned out the inch or so of sludge from the oil canaster, drained the black 30 year old oil, new filter, and grabbed some 5w30 off the shelf.

BTW, I am by no means a mechanic. I can read, turn a wrench and it was either try to repair or junk it. I didn"t feel it was worth, and couldn"t afford, spending a bunch of money on it. I did buy the IT manual, but thanks to this forum and all the post and replies, I made it through the repair. Cranked the engine a couple of times for about 5 seconds to get some oil flowing, turned the key on, and first pull of the choke, she started. Smoked, till the oil burned off I had squirted on top of the pistons and valves. Missed a little, then leveled off and was purring like a kitten. Nice oil pressure, about 3/4 the way on the unmarked scale, right where it had always been. I was so happy and couldn"t wait to get back in the saddle again. Took her for a spin around the lot, then down and back up a little hill to see if the govenor was working. It was working good. Finished bolting down the hood and installing the grill. Went to move the disk out of the field where she had broken down. Dropped it and headed back to the house when I started hearing a knock. Looked down and the oil pressure was gone. Quickly shut it off.

Was still full of oil. Removed line to oil pressure gauge and no oil pumping. It"s back to the forum to troubleshoot a new problem. Got some 90w gear oil to squirt in the oil pressure relief port to prime the pump, tried that a couple of times with no luck, then drained the oil to have a look at the pick up tube. It is nice and solid. Tried spraying some WD40 down the port. It did come out of the drain hole after a bit, but not out of the pick up tube. Not sure how it got out elsewhere ? I suspect the housing is a sealed unit but don"t know what it looks like other than the break down in the manual. Ran a wire up the tube about 14 inches to see if it had sucked up some sludge and stopped it up, but got nothing out. Tried turning the engine over with my finger over the pick up tube, but no suction. If I spray the WD40 long enough, it will start coming back out of the pressure relief port. It seems to me that somthing is clogged up. Do I dare try to get some de-greaser down the port ? Try to force some air down it ? I don"t want to create more trouble. I can"t believe the pump just quit like that. I know the manual says the drive gear is fiber, but I remember it being shinny steel when I had the timing cover off, and it didn"t look damaged. I"m betting I created this problem by changing the oil and cleaning the sludge out of things. There was no screen on the oil drain. I have one ordered but it"s a little too late now. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Anonymous-0]

PO-boy,too.

Like 'dis..plan on engine overhaul.

Thanks for the PO-boy idea. Hav'N lunch today for a lady. I mades yer some CHICKEN noodles, and as the main course...POY-boy!

SHRIMP boats are a comm'N.

John,PA

 

[Kenster]

(quoted from post at 09:46:40 10/21/10) PO-boy,too.

Like 'dis..plan on engine overhaul.

Thanks for the PO-boy idea. Hav'N lunch today for a lady. I mades yer some CHICKEN noodles, and as the main course...POY-boy!

SHRIMP boats are a comm'N.

John,PA

Graham, hang in there. Someone will come along to offer help that is not speaking in tongues.

 

[old]

If you do not have it brake down and spend $30 for a I-T manual FO-04 it will help you more then any of us can and it even has some pretty good pictures to show you what is going on.

 

[Dell (WA)]

Graham........all replacement cam drive gears are METAL, dispite what the manual sez. Cam drive gears are SHEARED when replacing the 2-bolt governor with long length bolt on top; RULE IS short bolt on top ...or else... you will shear yer cam drive gears. Its the law.

As fer loosing yer oil pressure, 5-30wt didja in. Iff'n priming it with 90wt oil don't do it, yer oilpump is TU. And you will be very lucky iff'n you have NOT WELDED yer crankshaft bearings. Yer gonnna haffta drop yer oilpan fer lookie-look. .....be thinking engine overhaul, eh?.....

Yer sludge cleaning has 'NUTTIN' to do with it and the wire probe aint'chur problem .....sorry, Dell

 

[souNdguy]

I have to agree with dell.. pull the pan and check the oil pump..

soundguy

 

[Den N Ms]

Graham626,You say that you grabbed some 5w30 off the shelf.Not good for a old worn engine,just about like water after it gets hot.Should have used a 20w40,20w50 or even a 50 weight oil.If it was a knockin ,its time for oil pan dropin.Shake the rods back and fourth and look for excess play first to see if you can find the culprit .Pull the rod and main caps for inspection.It sounds like it could have a spun bearing.

 

[weaveman01]

for giggles, i would try a heavy oil in it (20w50) and see if it gets oil pressure. What have you got to lose at this point. Then think about dropping the pan. Unless you want to rebuild it anyways.

 

[Graham626]

First of all, thanks everyone who replyed ! Actually Weaveman, I did just that when I got in today. Still no luck. Idon't want to rebuild it or drop the oil pan either. I'm almost out of pain pills ! What bothers me is that I can't get anything to flow fron the oil pressure relief valve, through the pump and down the pick up tube, even thin WD40. From what I've read on the old post, this would be normal. Like you say, what have I got to loose at this point. I've figured out that the oil relief valve nut is a standard 1/2" pipe thread. So I'm off to the hardware store in the morning to adapt this to my air hose and a little electric oil pump so I can force some air, then oil through the pump and out of the pick up tube.
I realize the 5w30 wasn't the proper oil and intended on changing it out the next day, hoping to flush some more crud out, but I never dreamed it would cause a problem running it 15 minutes. After all I've run a case a year through it for 4 years because of a leaky flange on the govenor. It's always had good oil pressure, dropping a little as the engine got hot.
Oh, the gear I was talking about earlier, was the oil pump drive gear. The manual says it's fiber and I saw metal. Guess it's been changed at some point.
So if anyone has any warnings about my plan tomorrow, speak now ! Thanks again everyone.

 

[ZANE]

Your biggest mistake was the 5W30 oil. Put some heavy oil in it and reprime the pump with some heavy oil and give it another try. Maybe you'll get lucky and the crank is not ruined????

Zane

 

[kev8n]

The manual does say that the usual cause of a broken gov. shaft is worn cam/crank gears; not the converse.

I would, as Dell has suggested see if you have subsequently damaged the new parts by replacing gov. bolts wrong.

I would disagree however, with all of this oil talk. The engine was designed to work with 30 weight oil at normal environmental temperatures and 5w30 or 10w30 IS 30 weight oil. It does not, by definition, thin out any more than straight 30 at operating temperature. "Detergent" oils are designed to *keep* particles suspended so that they may be trapped in the filter. It is not designed to *raise* sediment already deposited in the sump or elsewhere. I would say though, that if you have been operating without the screen around the pickup, anythng you fiddle with in there, including changing the oil, may well dislodge some crap which certainly could be drawn up immediately into the pickup tube/pump. If you have to run these ridiculously wrong weights of oil in the tractor to get it to show some kind of pressure then it is time to address some other problem. If it takes 90w to prime the thing then it's time to service the pump in some manner or this will likely be a regular occurance. The idea of a pressure lubrication system is to ensure adequate lubricant to the moving parts of the engine -some of which are relatively remote from the sump as well as cooling the cylinder walls by oil spray. The engine needs sufficient flow of lubricant with an adequate film strength to provide optimal protection. This may not be provided by too heavy a grade of oil, regardless of what the oil pressure gauge says. The gauge will only be *some* indication of adequate lubrication when operated with the right fluid viscosity.

Someone will have an anecdote about "I've run 140w in my engine for 35 years..." or whatever but this is like "My grandpa smoked three packs of Camels a day since he was eight and lived to be 99." Yeah, maybe, but not a prudent approach.

fwiw

kevin

 

[Graham626]

Thanks for the reply Kevin. It's good to know that I didn't mess up too bad with the oil weight. Stirring up the sludge makes sence to me. Actually I didn't know there was suppose to be a screen on the plug until after the fact. I hadn't looked through the entire manual that I just purchased, and was focusing on the repair at hand.

That would be a scary mistake to mix up the govenor bolts. I've read that on other post. Fortunately, mine has a stud in the top hole. I guess someone made that mistake in a previous life or had done this as a precaution. It still had the fiber timing gear, so it must have been some time ago.

Since I am unable to get even the thinist oil like WD40 to pass down the pressure relief valve hole, through the pump and out the pick up tube, my plan today is to fit that nut hole with some brass so I can force some air, then pressure pump some oil down to the pump. I can spray WD40 into the hole and eventually it will start coming back out, like something's stopped up. Only thing that makes sence to me.

I read on older post that priming with 90w oil is the way to go, to keep oil in the pump while getting the pressure valve back in, but I didn't have to prime it when we first started her up after the repair. Of course it could be that it was time for the pump to fail, but I have a good feeling that I will get that passage opened up with some air today. Fingers crossed.

Thanks,
Mike Graham

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 06:57:45 10/22/10) The manual does say that the usual cause of a broken gov. shaft is worn cam/crank gears; not the converse.

I would, as Dell has suggested see if you have subsequently damaged the new parts by replacing gov. bolts wrong.

I would disagree however, with all of this oil talk. The engine was designed to work with 30 weight oil at normal environmental temperatures and 5w30 or 10w30 IS 30 weight oil. It does not, by definition, thin out any more than straight 30 at operating temperature. "Detergent" oils are designed to *keep* particles suspended so that they may be trapped in the filter. It is not designed to *raise* sediment already deposited in the sump or elsewhere. I would say though, that if you have been operating without the screen around the pickup, anythng you fiddle with in there, including changing the oil, may well dislodge some crap which certainly could be drawn up immediately into the pickup tube/pump. If you have to run these ridiculously wrong weights of oil in the tractor to get it to show some kind of pressure then it is time to address some other problem. If it takes 90w to prime the thing then it's time to service the pump in some manner or this will likely be a regular occurance. The idea of a pressure lubrication system is to ensure adequate lubricant to the moving parts of the engine -some of which are relatively remote from the sump as well as cooling the cylinder walls by oil spray. The engine needs sufficient flow of lubricant with an adequate film strength to provide optimal protection. This may not be provided by too heavy a grade of oil, regardless of what the oil pressure gauge says. The gauge will only be *some* indication of adequate lubrication when operated with the right fluid viscosity.

Someone will have an anecdote about "I've run 140w in my engine for 35 years..." or whatever but this is like "My grandpa smoked three packs of Camels a day since he was eight and lived to be 99." Yeah, maybe, but not a prudent approach.

fwiw

kevin

Kev you have not been brain washed yet,,, hang around...

One other thang I would try to confirm that the pump will pump... Push a 1/2" I.D. plastic hose over the center tube of the pick up about 4 ft long are so,,, hold it above the oil pump are as high as you can get it,,, fill with oil,,, I guarantee if the pump can pump it will draw the oil in with the starter,,, if not then for sure some'n is amidst with the pump... If it will pump and not build pressure then its the pump are up stream of the pump.

No law say's you gotta draw oil from the pan,,, you can draw it from a remote source with the hose trick... then use yer head to figger it out from their...

from one who refuses to be brain washed...

 

[Graham626]

Thanks for the hose trick Hobo, I tried the hose trick yeaterday and it wouldn't pump. In fact I then added a hose fitting to the open end and put 60lbs of air pressure behind the oil. Still could not move the oil in the hose with the starter turning the engine over and air pressure on it. I fitted the oil pressure relief port so I could pump oil in the other direction. Oil came out of the drain plug, but not the pick up tube.

So I guess Dell was right. I'm gonna have to get the oil pan off. Just gotta figure out a way to support the engine if the front end has to come off.

I feel for you guys that do this for a living. It's very hard work. I've come to love this old tractor though. It's rough and tough, just like my daddy. I like the simplicity of things. I knew when we rolled it out of my "not so clean garrage anymore" that it would fire. Electronics is what I do, and this old tractor is simple and straight foward unlike my ford explorer, with all the computers, sensors and unreliable electronic stuff. No, it might not pass an emissions test, but my corn gets planted same day every year. I can see the reason why this forum is so great.

Many thanks to all !

Mike

 

[Hobo,NC]

Replete your test once you remove the pan... Look for the leak :wink: the pump may not be the problem :wink: :wink:

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

I've dropped the pan twice in my life. The first time with a presidential solution of jack stands and floor jacks. The second time with big wooden blogs I 'sewed" together. Go with the blocks. If you don't have them go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy the ugliest crookedest big square post they have. Take it to the manager ask for them to discount it, they normally will, and then take you chainsaw and cut it up. Blocks don't fall. If you follow this method you will be out about 8-10 dollars.

The tie rods might be a bit of a pain to remove. Check John Smith's 8n website for how to on removing tied rods. If you get everything apart make sure you number-mark your bolts so you know where the go when they go back in. Also, if you this far you should put new bolts in to replace the old ones. Again, you are out chump change and it s a good simple repair for future references. When you put it all back together make sure you have good gaskets and ultra-black gasket maker be abundant. There are other things you could do while down there, but probably beyond what you want.

As for the rest of the matter, I suggest you split the tractor while you are doing everything else and send the block to a good local machine shop and have them rebuild it. If it hasn't seen a rebuild in 60 years it might be time. $1000-$1700 to be done right, depending on the shop, depending on the area. If you go the rebuild route, don't poor boy the job.

If you are not "married" to the tractor you can find a good 70s-80s era Ford tractor that has a near bullet proof diesel motor with more power and live hydraulics and PTO. From what I read, nationwide used tractor prices are depressed. Just make sure you don't buy someone else's problems.

My two bits worth.

 

[Graham626]

For anyone following this post, I dropped the oil pan and found one of the gears in the oil pump, in 4 pieces. Everything else looks ok. I blocked up under the transmission and used a chain hoist to support the fron end. Didn't have to remove anything. Took about 45 minutes to have the oil pan down on the floor jack. I have parts ordered and doing some painting and clean up in the mean time. Put in some sealed beams and tail lights. Starting to look pretty good !

 

[Walston]

(quoted from post at 14:57:09 10/29/10) For anyone following this post, I dropped the oil pan and found one of the gears in the oil pump, in 4 pieces. Everything else looks ok. I blocked up under the transmission and used a chain hoist to support the fron end. Didn't have to remove anything. Took about 45 minutes to have the oil pan down on the floor jack. I have parts ordered and doing some painting and clean up in the mean time. Put in some sealed beams and tail lights. Starting to look pretty good !

Thanks for the update and hopefully you will be back in business soon.

 

[Graham626]

Got my parts Monday and spent yesterday evening working on the oil pump. Took the housing out to get a better look. Found the bushing was .001 larger than the new shaft. Since that seem to be in spec., and no easy way to get the new one reamed, I went for it. Packed it all with assembly lube and got it back together about dark. Turned the engine over a few times and seen the oil pressure gauge coming up. Started her up and had 42 lbs pressure. Settled on the Shell 15w40 to see how thing go. Drove it up to my dad's (now that I have headlights) and pressure after it got hot was 32 on the road and 20 idle. So to say the least, I'm pretty excited. After a week of clean up, painting, wiring and replacing and adding stuff, I was glad for it to be done. I'll try to post a couple of pics. Wish I had a before picture cause it looked pretty bad. Not a lot of rust but a greasy dirty mess. It had some faded red and gray primer paint from years in the past, so I went with the 8n colors. Still waiting on the fender decals. Does anyone know what the spring loaded lever that's in the rubber hose, between the air cleaner and the air pipe to the carb is for ? Thanks to all !

 

[Walston]

Looks good, glad the oil pump worked out. Can't help on the other question??