IH 444 with unknown loader??

[JimB2]

Yes, 11 GPM spool will be good, you have to find a two spool that one spool is single acting and the other spool double acting for bucket. As I said before some spools may require a Drain port on the bottom and that would be a low pressure return to the hydraulic filler port behind the seat.
Also make sure the spool valve has a built in relief valve set at 1500 to 2000 PSI.
Does your 444 have an Aux hydraulic pump in front of the Rad or where does that hydraulic line that has the valve on it by the gear shift come from?

If there is no Aux pump maybe your hydraulic connections can be simplified like photo below.
The rear remote the could be connected from the Plug in front of the seat by the Isolator valve.

Photo of Hydraulic drains into rear hydraulic filler ports

 

[Analyte]

Jim, I haven't noticed an aux pump on the tractor but I've give it another look. By memory, I think all the piping comes directly out of the tractor hyd pump at the front, c33-83301 since I have a pic, but I'll verify.

 

[Analyte]

One more question, the steering wheel just spins and never turns the front wheels. I haven't had a power steering tractor before, but this doesn't seem correct.

Will this thing need the box rebuilt? I had to do that on my 276 so not a huge deal, but it went straight on the trailer so I never touched the wheel. Lol

 

[caterpillar guy]

they can though usually don't when shut off. What happens with it running will be the bigger issue.

 

[JimB2]

Look at the photo in my last post, the top part of the photo shows a block under the fuel tank with hydraulic connections and a plug with a flat screw driver slot, that is the splitter for the 7 GPM to 3PT and 3 GPM to PS. If that is not working correctly the PS will not get any hydraulic flow.

 

[Analyte]

Look at the photo in my last post, the top part of the photo shows a block under the fuel tank with hydraulic connections and a plug with a flat screw driver slot, that is the splitter for the 7 GPM to 3PT and 3 GPM to PS. If that is not working correctly the PS will not get any hydraulic flow.

Ok, I looked over the tractor with a flashlight and traced all the lines. It does have the splitter with the lines going to the PS. All that intact and unbothered. I have not touched the flathead screw.

I see no other hyd pump other than the Plessey C33-83301 pictured. The picture of the floor beneath the seats has two silver round handles. One is a block off nearest the seat, and the other closer to the shifter turns back and forth around a half turn. The seller implied that second knob near the shifter moves the loader up/down.

I did turn the steering wheel 3-5 complete rotations and it did hit what felt like a hydraulic stop, and then I turned it back the other way.

 

[JimB2]

The hydraulic plumbing for the 3PT and PS appear to be correct.
Does the loader have a spool valve mounted on right side of loader frame?
What are the operating instructions for the loader to work? Which valves do you have to Open or Close, do you have to move the 3PT Raise/Lower lever to make it work?

 

[Analyte]

No spool valve controls on the loader. At all The seller told me how it worked, but it seems so odd. Definitely couldn't have been by design.

I'm guessing I'll have to get it running to see how it works out. The circular valve nearest the seat opens/closes to use 3pt vs loader based on what I was told.

Thanks for the help, I'm wondering if he just forgot or was misremembering how it worked since it had been sitting so long.

 

[JimB2]

That is correct, if there is no loader spool valve. That valve in front right of seat is called the Isolator valve, when Open the high pressure hydraulic oil goes to the 3PT when the Raise/Lower lever is moved, to use with your loader setup, move the Raise/Lower lever to about half way up and that is the Neutral-Hold position, Mark this position of the lever guide, now Close the Isolator Valve and the high pressure hydraulic oil is to be direct out the Port that has the piping connected to it, to lift the loader move the Raise/Lower lever backwards about an inch or so, when desired height is reached, move the Raiser/Lower lever to the Neutral-Hold position mark, to lower the loader move the Raise/Lower lever an inch or so forward until the lowered height is obtained then move the Raise/Lower lever back to the Neutral-Hold position.

Hope this helps
Jim

 

[Analyte]

That is correct, if there is no loader spool valve. That valve in front right of seat is called the Isolator valve, when Open the high pressure hydraulic oil goes to the 3PT when the Raise/Lower lever is moved, to use with your loader setup, move the Raise/Lower lever to about half way up and that is the Neutral-Hold position, Mark this position of the lever guide, now Close the Isolator Valve and the high pressure hydraulic oil is to be direct out the Port that has the piping connected to it, to lift the loader move the Raise/Lower lever backwards about an inch or so, when desired height is reached, move the Raiser/Lower lever to the Neutral-Hold position mark, to lower the loader move the Raise/Lower lever an inch or so forward until the lowered height is obtained then move the Raise/Lower lever back to the Neutral-Hold position.

Hope this helps
Jim

Jim, that helps a lot. What you're saying makes more sense than what I was told before but it all lines up.

Definitely appreciate the help!!

I got a line on a quick attach adaptor so I'll work on that this week. The loader arms will need some modifications to lengthen and strengthen the bucket pivot points since the current tabs won't work, but it's the right way to go. Plus the skid bucket naturally setup for dual cylinders which makes that mod easier as well.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Ok, that makes sense. I'll get some measurements off the cylinders I have to compare. Thanks

It's a geometry problem.

If you look at the way the trip bucket is mounted on your Freeman 2000 loader vs. a loader with a hydraulic bucket you should notice that the pivot points are on the sides of your bucket, near the middle of the bucket. This is to facilitate dumping and resetting the bucket; often the bucket will dump and swing back up and lock into place all on its own. On a hydraulic bucket the pivots are on the rear of the bucket to facilitate the geometry for a hydraulic dump; it does not need to be "balanced" as on a trip bucket.

 

[Analyte]

Well, I got the new starter on and jumped the posts to make sure it spins ok. A few of the wires needed to be repaired so I fixed those and moved the loom to a safer spot. The main ground from battery to starter was junk so I replaced it with a 4 AWG I had which should be enough. I will need to chase down a ground strap tomorrow for battery to frame since it has none. Finally I run a new 1/0 for the hot wire from battery to starter, it's overkill but it's what I had.

Then I spent the rest of the day chasing wires in the dash A lot of backyard repairs have been made through the years so I need to make some new runs, and replace some of the wires with the correct color since a lot of stuff was repaired with red, lol. The clutch safety was removed so I'll get one of those ordered, but it had the old twist the two wires and tape bypass...jeez.

I then went to put the new key switch in, and I realized they sent me the wrong one. Instead of on/off to send power to the push button, I received a three position switch off/run/start. Simple mistake and I'll have the correct one on Friday.

 

[Analyte]

Well, I picked up a new battery last night and hooked it to my new cables. I'm not a fan of the exposed battery so I'll have to find a box I like to keep it covered later.

I got my new key switch and glow plug switch and those were wired in. Turned the key, triggered the glow plugs for 1 minute, and then hit the starter button. Turns over great, but didn't start. Sounded like no fuel.

Started tracing the fuel system to see when it was dry. Good at filter, but I bought a wrench to change it tomorrow anyway. The line over to the injection pump is good, and the lower bleed hole on the pump had some air but then was spitting quite well. I checked the injector connections at the pump, and they are dry. I got a few drops initially but then nothing. I'm thinking my pump is sticking, or the old fuel filter is limiting pressure to cycle it.

So I'm happy with the wiring now, but definitely need to investigate the fuel system. I do have some ether so I may try a squirt or two tomorrow to get it to bark, and maybe that will help unstick the pump.

 

[JimB2]

Could be the Shut Off mechanism inside the CAV/DPA pump is stuck in the Stop position.
After bleeding the system making sure fuel comes out top bleed screw on the pump, Pull throttle wide open, work the Stop pull knob On and Off several times,
crack a couple injection lines and try to start the engine and see if any fuel squirts out the loosened injection lines.

 

[Analyte]

Could be the Shut Off mechanism inside the CAV/DPA pump is stuck in the Stop position.
After bleeding the system making sure fuel comes out top bleed screw on the pump, Pull throttle wide open, work the Stop pull knob On and Off several times,
crack a couple injection lines and try to start the engine and see if any fuel squirts out the loosened injection lines.

I played with it some today, I never got anything out of the top bleeder. I'm comfortable my fuel pump is working a
And it's solid fuel to the lower bleeder, and then it just stops.

You might be right on the shut off mechanism, I was watching a YouTube earlier tonight where he disassembled the pump to reseal. He gave details on removing the top cover so if I need to I have an idea what to expect now.

I'll start on it again tomorrow. I'll work the throttle and cut off a bunch to see if that helps. I've read different opinions on whether fuel is needed at the top bleeder to start, but it seems logical I need fuel there so as to work it's way up the lines.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[JimB2]

You don't require fuel at the top bleeder to start but the fuel at the top lubes the governor and the shut off and fuel metering valve.
After the introduction of the ULSD Diesel fuel, It was a common problem on those CAV pumps for the fuel metering valve to stick in the OFF position when the tractor sat for months without running, Solution was to add Diesel fuel conditioner or an ounce or two of 2 cycle engine oil to the tractors fuel tank everytime you added fuel. MF Perkins engines, and some Ford engines used the same type of CAV/DPA Lucas pump.
See photo below of the mechanisms under the top cover, item #10 usually sticks in the OFF/CLOSED position.

 

[Analyte]

Jim,
Thanks for that picture. I'll keep this close rather than the video if the top cover has to come off.

Any reason I couldn't just squirt some diesel in the top bleeder hole as a lubricant while I work them? I may try that if needed before pulling the top.

 

[JimB2]

Jim,
Thanks for that picture. I'll keep this close rather than the video if the top cover has to come off.

Any reason I couldn't just squirt some diesel in the top bleeder hole as a lubricant while I work them? I may try that if needed before pulling the top.

Yes, you could.

 

[Analyte]

Yes, you could.

Ok, based on your suggestion I worked the cut off and throttle back and forth for 5-6 minutes. By then both were moving a lot easier and smoother, especially the cut off.

I then went back to bleeding and got drops of fuel at each injector going through each one by one. I then tried to start it and it's right there, but won't hit. I sprayed a little ether to get it a chance and it hit a few times and then just tries again.

I went with a little more ether and it kicked off for 1-2 seconds and then died out. So I know it's a runner, but it's definitely not getting enough fuel

I pulled the fuel filter, and it was 2/3 full. The fuel is clean and coming from the tank so that's good. I'm starting to wonder if my injectors may be plugged from sitting. Thoughts?

Running to town to grab some fuel line, wire, and oil. I'll mess with it some more when I get back.

 

[JimB2]

Re plugged injectors, before ULSD Diesel, I would say no but some nasty stuff happens with the newer fuel but fuel filters should have plugged up first. Try to start with wide open throttle, you shouldn't require much glow plug in the warm weather, maybe 10 secs. Make sure air cleaner and pipe to intake is clear of mouse nest etc. You can loosen the return line on top of one of the injectors to see if any fuel is going back the return, becareful not to loose the small sealing washers. Did you try loosening the one injection line at the injector line?