IH 444 with unknown loader??

[Analyte]

Good work, sounds good.

Thanks Jim, I couldn't have got this far without your help!

Now to finish up the engine work, and then finally work on the rest of the list of things to do.

 

[LMack]

I'm picking up an IH 444 tomorrow that needs some work, but it is a BD154 Diesel so it will go well with my current IH 276 project I'm working on.

It's not in bad shape overall, but I don't recognize the loader that's on it. It's definitely not a 2050, but beyond that my google searches have come up short on anything similar.

Anyone know what loader brand this is, or could it be homemade? It's missing some parts so hoping to get a manual or something to see what's needed.

A couple extra pics of the piping below the seat and a rear pipe that is capped off.

Thanks

We had a B 414 with a Bucyrus loader. That was a while back.

 

[Analyte]

Well, all the outer metal is on, and the fluids are all good to go. I was finally able to drive it off the trailer.of course I then noticed i forgot to reinstall the panel between the fuel tank and engine so I'll need to metal again, lol

Starts wonderful now, power steering is a win, and it doesn't smoke at all. I need to tidy up the wiring and find a replacement sent to make it comfortable.

Definitely need to get a rear tire ordered, and I need to figure out the loader operating. The prior owner pointed out which knobs to move to operate it, but it didn't work when I moved them. I'll map out the lines and try to figure it out. I just don't want to deadhead anything and cause damage. I'll start collecting parts to switch it over from a trip buckets to a hyd with its own controls.

 

[Analyte]

Quick update on the 444.

New rear tire and fuel pump has made this tractor a fun ride. I've been working it since I got it going, mainly bush-hogging and digging post holes for fencing.

I played around with the valves and other knobs trying to get the loader to work, but it just doesn't do anything. I tried Jim's method from a earlier post, but closing the isolater doesn't seem to get the loader to move either. The reason for the extra valves in the piping mess are a mystery, lol

I guess this seems like the best time to replace the hydraulic cylinders, route new hoses like Jim suggested off the bypass under the fuel tank, and modify the front arms to a Bobcat adaptor and make it a hydraulic dump as well.

Going to do some measuring to see which cylinders I need and start buying the rest of the parts to make it work.

 

[used red MN]

Quick update on the 444.

New rear tire and fuel pump has made this tractor a fun ride. I've been working it since I got it going, mainly bush-hogging and digging post holes for fencing.

I played around with the valves and other knobs trying to get the loader to work, but it just doesn't do anything. I tried Jim's method from a earlier post, but closing the isolater doesn't seem to get the loader to move either. The reason for the extra valves in the piping mess are a mystery, lol

I guess this seems like the best time to replace the hydraulic cylinders, route new hoses like Jim suggested off the bypass under the fuel tank, and modify the front arms to a Bobcat adaptor and make it a hydraulic dump as well.

Going to do some measuring to see which cylinders I need and start buying the rest of the parts to make it work.

When you show the loader being held up on the trailer are the hydraulic cylinders doing that? If so there is nothing wrong with the main frame cylinders or at least to the degree that they are absolutely non functional. Let me get a bit more information to be certain. Are there any fittings or hoses attached to the upper end of the cylinders where the rams come out? If not those are “one way” or single acting cylinders. If they were failing it would be the seals around the rams, this would simply let fluid pass by them and the loader would drop to the ground and do nothing and oil would just be pumping out. Ever messed with a medical syringe when you draw liquid in it and hold the end shut the plunger can’t be pushed in. That is the same principle as those cylinders. Once fluid is forced in the cylinder and the control valve is closed the valve holds fluid in the cylinder holding the ram (equivalent of the syringe plunger) out to a certain position. You need a 0 to 3000-5000 pressure gauge to tell you what you have going on.

 

[JimB2]

Hi, see photo below, does the hydraulic line that I drew the BLUE arrow on go to the loader lift cylinders?
If so we can have another go at getting the loader to lift.
1) With the hydraulic line to the rear capped.
2) Start tractor, make sure Draft control lever fully forward,
Move 3PT Raise lever to about half way up, mark this position as H for Hold.
3) Stop tractor, open both valves with the Round handles.
4) Close the Isolating valve.
5) Start the tractor at low idle and listen for any laboring of engine or hydraulic whine.
6) Move 3PT Raise lever towards the rear about 1" or so (Lift Position) and loader should lift then move lever back to the H mark
and loader should Hold its position, to lower loader move 3PT Raise lever about 1" forward (Lower position) and loader should lower,
and move lever back to H and it will Hold that height. If you want loader to Float on the ground then leave the 3PT Raise
lever in the same position as Lower position.
7) To Hold the loader at a constant position and then use the 3PT hitch, use 3PT Raise lever to Lift loader to desired height, then return to Hold position, next Stop tractor, Close both Round handle valves and Open the Isolator valve, start tractor now the 3PT Raise/Lower lever should control the 3PT lift arms and if there are no leaks in the Round handled valves or loader cylinders the loader should remain at the same height.
In the setup on your tractor to use the rear remote outlet to connect to a remote cylinder, you would use the same procedure as for the Loader but you would leave the Round lever valve by the right of the gear shift Closed.

I always recommend stopping tractor engine when Opening or Closing Isolator valve as there is a small danger of Dead Heading the hydraulic system.

Hope this helps.

 

[used red MN]

If so there is nothing wrong with the main frame cylinders or at least to the degree that they are absolutely non functional. Let me get a bit more information to be certain.

I should add, there is a slim possibility that the rams or one of them are stuck/rusted in a certain extended position. This would mean that the loader position has never moved from when you first saw the tractor. Also if you are not certain of the operation of the loader controls the fittings of the hoses at the bottom of the cylinders could be loosened to see if leaking off fluid would allow them to retract for a more certain answer on if they are functional or not. If you do this beware or pressurized fluid escaping. A fine high pressure squirt can penetrate skin.

 

[Analyte]

When you show the loader being held up on the trailer are the hydraulic cylinders doing that? If so there is nothing wrong with the main frame cylinders or at least to the degree that they are absolutely non functional. Let me get a bit more information to be certain. Are there any fittings or hoses attached to the upper end of the cylinders where the rams come out? If not those are “one way” or single acting cylinders. If they were failing it would be the seals around the rams, this would simply let fluid pass by them and the loader would drop to the ground and do nothing and oil would just be pumping out. Ever messed with a medical syringe when you draw liquid in it and hold the end shut the plunger can’t be pushed in. That is the same principle as those cylinders. Once fluid is forced in the cylinder and the control valve is closed the valve holds fluid in the cylinder holding the ram (equivalent of the syringe plunger) out to a certain position. You need a 0 to 3000-5000 pressure gauge to tell you what you have going on.

The loader was lifted up and steel blocks were strapped to the extended rams to keep the loader up. I have removed them since I couldn't get the loader to lift higher to remove the.

You are correct they are single acting cylinders.

 

[Analyte]

Hi, see photo below, does the hydraulic line that I drew the BLUE arrow on go to the loader lift cylinders?
If so we can have another go at getting the loader to lift.
1) With the hydraulic line to the rear capped.
2) Start tractor, make sure Draft control lever fully forward,
Move 3PT Raise lever to about half way up, mark this position as H for Hold.
3) Stop tractor, open both valves with the Round handles.
4) Close the Isolating valve.
5) Start the tractor at low idle and listen for any laboring of engine or hydraulic whine.
6) Move 3PT Raise lever towards the rear about 1" or so (Lift Position) and loader should lift then move lever back to the H mark
and loader should Hold its position, to lower loader move 3PT Raise lever about 1" forward (Lower position) and loader should lower,
and move lever back to H and it will Hold that height. If you want loader to Float on the ground then leave the 3PT Raise
lever in the same position as Lower position.
7) To Hold the loader at a constant position and then use the 3PT hitch, use 3PT Raise lever to Lift loader to desired height, then return to Hold position, next Stop tractor, Close both Round handle valves and Open the Isolator valve, start tractor now the 3PT Raise/Lower lever should control the 3PT lift arms and if there are no leaks in the Round handled valves or loader cylinders the loader should remain at the same height.
In the setup on your tractor to use the rear remote outlet to connect to a remote cylinder, you would use the same procedure as for the Loader but you would leave the Round lever valve by the right of the gear shift Closed.

I always recommend stopping tractor engine when Opening or Closing Isolator valve as there is a small danger of Dead Heading the hydraulic system.

Hope this helps.


View attachment 135585

Jim,
I'll give your instructions a go tomorrow. I am wondering if the loader has been in that position so long it's seized in place, but we'll see

This pic of the 444 operator station has the DIY loader hydraulic setup that I can't understand.

Here I've "circled" one of the valves in red. It doesn't screw to open/close, it just turns 90deg or so from center position in either direction. Not sure why as it doesn't seem to do anything

The other valve that goes to the left lower side of the tractor manifold (when sitting) does screw in/out to open/close apparently. I played with it and the main isolator valve, but I'll go through that lift tomorrow and update you on what I find.

The 3 point works great, and turning the isolator valve in does make it non operational so that function works.

 

[Analyte]

I should add, there is a slim possibility that the rams or one of them are stuck/rusted in a certain extended position. This would mean that the loader position has never moved from when you first saw the tractor. Also if you are not certain of the operation of the loader controls the fittings of the hoses at the bottom of the cylinders could be loosened to see if leaking off fluid would allow them to retract for a more certain answer on if they are functional or not. If you do this beware or pressurized fluid escaping. A fine high pressure squirt can penetrate skin.

Good point, the rams could indeed be seized. No doubt this tractor sit way longer than I was told when purchased. It runs great now, but it's got the typical problems of one that's been sitting.

I'll try the list from Jim, and if nothing works I can crack open a hose to see if anything comes out.

Been thinking and I do wonder if the loader was lifted with another loader while the tractor wasn't running to install the blocks. If true, is it possible there is no fluid in the rams so that why when I try to raise it further nothing happens??

 

[used red MN]

if the loader was lifted with another loader while the tractor wasn't running to install the blocks.

The photo isn’t that good, so apparently those are stops or blocks in there along the rams? If Jim’s suggestions don’t work out if your 275 has working hydraulics you could park it close by and run a hose to a coupler on it for testing. If it has two way hydraulic you can find the lever directions that raises the cylinder and then shut off the tractor to hold the lever the opposite direction to lower it. If you didn’t do that the tractor would be pushing against the relief valve while lowering because you wouldn’t have a hose on the second coupler it would deadhead.

 

[Analyte]

Sorry for the delay, I got sent out of town for work for a couple of weeks.

I played with the tractor yesterday going through the list Jim provided, and nothing makes the loader move and there is not tone change from the engine or hydro. I started feeling the lines, and I couldn't feel any flow.

Messing with it some more there isn't any hydraulic fluid in the flex oader lines. There must be a blockage somewhere so I'm going to crack every line to see what I find.

This may be a waste of time, but the end goal is to convert it to dual action cylinders with a joystick with hydro bucket. This just speeds up the process.

Anyone have a hydraulic diagram for a 444 with a loader layout? I need to pull the arm cylinders to confirm my measurements to order new DA cylinders. I'll get them sorted, and then start on cylinder brackets for the bucket.

 

[used red MN]

The loader was lifted up and steel blocks were strapped to the extended rams to keep the loader up. I have removed them since I couldn't get the loader to lift higher to remove the.

You are correct they are single acting cylinders.

Looking back I see the answer to my question about the loader being blocked up was answered earlier.(June I think) I see you mentioned that you were using it to dig post holes, so this must mean the 3 point works and it has power steering that is working? This would save me and others from swimming through the other replies.

 

[Analyte]

Well, it's been a while since I provided any updates but the 444 has been running great. It starts so easy I rarely have to use the glow plugs.

Been bushhogging, dragging the driveway, and pulling trailers with brush. The loader sat over the winter with no real work on it since I took Jim's advice on the 2000 frame being too short and spaced wrong to add a cylinder bucket. So I've kept my eyes out for a 3000 frame or an IH loader, and I finally got lucky last weekend!

I found it on Marketplace, and the gentleman had it on a IH464 that his grandfather bought new with it. He was retiring the tractor to fix up nice and didn't want the loader anymore since he had other bigger tractors.

I was able to get every bracket, bolt, etc to make the swap very easy. It does have single loader cylinders, but they were rebuilt recently so I'll use them for now just to get it running. The bucket cylinder was replaced a couple of years ago so it's solid. Only thing is I need to get a few hoses made up to replace a few since they look worn. He didn't have an issue with them, but it's a small cost to avoid potential issues.

I still need to remove the questionable piping form the 2000 that I could never get to work, and I'll tie the 3000 into the tractor hydraulics under the seat like it should be once I get the hose I need measured out and made.

Is there a standard size for the fitting for the hose end that goes under the seat and the splitter end under the fuel tank?

I'm gone for work next week, but the following week is when I'll pull the old hoses and get some replacements made. Plus I'll need to get some more hytran to top off as I purge the air in the loader.

 

[JimB2]

If you are going to replumb the loader hydraulics maybe you want to do it correctly so both 3pt and loader can be used at the same time.

 

[Analyte]

If you are going to replumb the loader hydraulics maybe you want to do it correctly so both 3pt and loader can be used at the same time.

Jim, you are absolutely correct. Earlier in this thread you provided some pictures of how to run the hose from the splitter to the inlet valve, then outlet valve to port under the seat drives the 3 point.

I'm going to follow your flow diagram so it all functions, and that's why I need to have a few hoses made to get the lengths right.

I need to cut one of the hoses open to verify ID, but they appear to be 3/8. The pioneer couplers can be taken off to verify I get the right crimped fitting NPT size.

 

[Analyte]

Ok, I'm pulling the old lines to replace and I'm now trying to get the original steel return hose from the splitter to under the seat off

What size wrench does it require? I have up to an 27mm and that isn't it. Hoping someone knows so I don't have to buy several to figure it out.

Speaking of that steel return hose, I have thought about pulling it off the splitter and then cutting that steel pipe to connect my outlet for the loader valve. It will be low pressure so maybe a compression fitting will work? Thoughts?

 

[JimB2]

Please, some photos of loader valves and existing hydraulic lines before cutting anything just to verify that everything will work.

 

[Analyte]

Jim, I pulled out all the useless piping that was there before.

Now I just need to deal with this metal pipe noted in your earlier pictures. It comes from the splitter to the 3pt now, but I'm going to remove it and set it up to the loader inlet like you showed.

That means the loader output will go under the seat. I'm wondering if I need to remove the pipe fully or can I cut it midway to connect my loader output.

Also, trying to figure out the nut size for that metal pipe out of the splitter. I don't have a wrench that big....yet

 

[JimB2]

Good, does the loader valve have a third "Dump" port out the bottom of the valve?
To loosen that nut on the hydraulic line, do you have an air hammer or a long punch with a flat end, then put punch very close to the ridge on t he nut and tap with a hammer in direction to loosen.