Log splitter running hot

[TheOldHokie]

1 Spool 30 GPM Double Acting Directional Valve Cross Mfg 131135 BA11AG3EA0 SBA2 | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

1 Spool 30 GPM Double Acting Directional Valve Cross Mfg 131135 BA11AG3EA0 SBA2, Directional Control Valves, 1 SPOOL DOUBLE ACTING DIRECTIONALCROSS,131135,

www.surpluscenter.com

This looks almost identical, might be an updated model of the valve?

I would say thats your valve but uou need to know a bit more about how its configured. I am sure it can be setup for closed center operstion which would deadhead the pump against the relief and cause a lot of heat. There is a "plug" in the side next to the tank port. Take it out and see if it is a closed center conversion plug.

Cross Mfg BA Series Closed Center Plug 1V0206 | Cross Mfg | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com

Cross Mfg BA Series Closed Center Plug 1V0206, Cross Mfg, CROSS BA CLOSED CENTER PLUG To convert Cross BA series valves to closed center. Shpg 1/2Cross Mfg.,1V0206,

www.surpluscenter.com

Dan

 

[OldMassey44]

I would say thats your valve but uou need to know a bit more about how its configured. I am sure it can be setup for closed center operstion which would deadhead the pump against the relief and cause a lot of heat. There is a "plug" in the side next to the tank port. Take it out and see if it is a closed center conversion plug.

Cross Mfg BA Series Closed Center Plug 1V0206 | Cross Mfg | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com

Cross Mfg BA Series Closed Center Plug 1V0206, Cross Mfg, CROSS BA CLOSED CENTER PLUG To convert Cross BA series valves to closed center. Shpg 1/2Cross Mfg.,1V0206,

www.surpluscenter.com

Dan

Okay I'll look into doing all that and get back to you

 

[TheOldHokie]

Okay I'll look into doing all that and get back to you

Stsrt with the plug. If its closed center you have found your problem

Dan

 

[OldMassey44]

Stsrt with the plug. If its closed center you have found your problem

Dan

I don't believe this is a closed center plug. I will install a pressure gauge once I have a chance to pick one up

 

[TheOldHokie]

I don't believe this is a closed center plug. I will install a pressure gauge once I have a chance to pick one up

Yep, thats an open center plug. I will be interested in seeing inlet pressure. That valve has a rated P->T pressure drop of 33 PSI @ 35 GPM ...

 

[mhb@ufe]

I suspect the heat problem is caused by using a single stage high volume pump and a rather small oil tank. A 20 GPM 2-stage pump could be run with an 8HP engine and the tank size would be less of a problem due to it running at lower GPM rate under pressure. I don't believe the hose size is a problem as they would be a common size for that pump if it was used on a loader.

 

[OldMassey44]

I took the pump and tank off along with the valve and rinsed it out with gas and some fresh oil, the fluid was full of small shiny metal particles. There's evidence of the person that built this that when they cut piping between the pump and tank that they didn't bother to de-bur anything so I assume they allowed metal to fall into the system. I didn't open up the pump but from looking into one of the openings with a flashlight it looked to be in good condition, no pitting or signs of damage. The valve when I opened it up had some minor chipping on the edge of one of the sections of the main valve that slides back and forth but I don't think it would affect anything, I forgot to take a picture of it. Still need to pick up a pressure gauge to finish diagnosing. One day I will probably upgrade to a 2 stage pump but for now I'll try to keep this one going. One of the next things I'll be getting is a filter for the return line.

 

[OldMassey44]

I suspect the heat problem is caused by using a single stage high volume pump and a rather small oil tank. A 20 GPM 2-stage pump could be run with an 8HP engine and the tank size would be less of a problem due to it running at lower GPM rate under pressure. I don't believe the hose size is a problem as they would be a common size for that pump if it was used on a loader.

How many gallons of fluid would be enough for this pump? I could always keep an eye out for a bigger tank or one to add onto this one to make it bigger

 

[TheOldHokie]

I suspect the heat problem is caused by using a single stage high volume pump and a rather small oil tank. A 20 GPM 2-stage pump could be run with an 8HP engine and the tank size would be less of a problem due to it running at lower GPM rate under pressure. I don't believe the hose size is a problem as they would be a common size for that pump if it was used on a loader.

I do think its a sizing problem Mark but not because its a single stage pump. That pump is a complete mystery. It could easily be 3 CID and would be pumping 47 GPM @ 3600 RPM. The OP needs to look for a model number on it just like he did for the valve.

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

How many gallons of fluid would be enough for this pump? I could always keep an eye out for a bigger tank or one to add onto this one to make it bigger

That would be a total WAG. You need to ID the pump to determine size.

TOH

 

[OldMassey44]

I do think its a sizing problem Mark but not because its a single stage pump. That pump is a complete mystery. It could easily be 3 CID and would be pumping 47 GPM @ 3600 RPM. The OP needs to look for a model number on it just like he did for the valve.

TOH

Here's a link to a different post I started awhile ago trying to figure out what pump this could be. Still haven't figured it out

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/what-pump-is-this.1782041/#post-11690109

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here's a link to a different post I started awhile ago trying to figure out what pump this could be. Still haven't figured it out

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/threads/what-pump-is-this.1782041/#post-11690109

Destroked said what I was thinking - old Cessna ir Rexroth pump. But you are still stalling a 17 HP pump....

You can measure the flow rate with a bucket and a stopwatch. How big is your current tank? Looks like more than 5 gsllons.

Have you got your pressure gauge yet?

TOH

 

[OldMassey44]

Destroked said what I was thinking - old Cessna ir Rexroth pump. But you are still stalling a 17 HP pump....

You can measure the flow rate with a bucket and a stopwatch. How big is your current tank? Looks like more than 5 gsllons.

Have you got your pressure gauge yet?

TOH

No pressure gauge yet, the tank, pump and valve all drained into a 5 gallon bucket but the hydraulic cylinder was still full so It's gotta be under 6 gallons for the whole system

 

[mhb@ufe]

It is all guess work without knowing the actual size of the pump and what RPM it is rated at. The pump looks very much like pumps that were used on older loaders and that is what I am basing my theory on.

 

[TheOldHokie]

No pressure gauge yet, the tank, pump and valve all drained into a 5 gallon bucket but the hydraulic cylinder was still full so It's gotta be under 6 gallons for the whole system

So you want to max out at about 10 to 12 GPM on the pump. Your cylinder size dictates the pump size and yours looks small by splitter stsndards. Measure the OD. stroke, and rod size to calculate approximate cylinder volume. Then its simple arithmetic to calculate flow rate needed. Small pumps are dirt cheap.

TOH

 

[caterpillar guy]

Could also put a mount so the pump it can be driven by a belt and pulley to slow down the pump that would reduce the volume With a small pulley on the engine shaft and a bigger one on the pump it would slow it down. Using the enginew speed to figure the pump speed. So a 3600RPm shaft would need a 2or 3 to one reduction. OR about a 3inch pulley on the engine and a 9 inch on the pump for a slow down of about a 2/3's reduction. Pump would run about 1200 RPM which would be closer to the speed of one in a transmission. IF and engine driven pump then you would figure to be about the speed of the crank in the engine or about 21-2400 RPM so then a 3 inch driving a 6 inch pulley would reduce pump speed by about your 1/3 you need. this would reduce volume some And not reduce the pressure of it. Pressure would still be controlled by the relief valve in the system. A filter would be a good plan also.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Could also put a mount so the pump it can be driven by a belt and pulley to slow down the pump that would reduce the volume With a small pulley on the engine shaft and a bigger one on the pump it would slow it down. Using the enginew speed to figure the pump speed. So a 3600RPm shaft would need a 2or 3 to one reduction. OR about a 3inch pulley on the engine and a 9 inch on the pump for a slow down of about a 2/3's reduction. Pump would run about 1200 RPM which would be closer to the speed of one in a transmission. IF and engine driven pump then you would figure to be about the speed of the crank in the engine or about 21-2400 RPM so then a 3 inch driving a 6 inch pulley would reduce pump speed by about your 1/3 you need. this would reduce volume some And not reduce the pressure of it. Pressure would still be controlled by the relief valve in the system. A filter would be a good plan also.

Or, just idle the engine down. I never ran my splitter, a commercially built "Wood General" brand, at full throttle even though it only had a 6HP engine and a small pump. Running it harder did not speed it up or make it split any better.

Changing the oil isn't going to make any difference. Taking it all apart isn't going to make any difference.

 

[farmersamm]

From what I understand, oil will heat when it bypasses. All of my stuff is open center hydraulics.......it generates a lot of heat just bypassing.

If you're concerned about temps...........I wouldn't be overly concerned. Take a look at allowable temperatures for bearings. Most are within tolerance at temperatures up to 230 degrees. The big limiter on temps, is usually the seals, if they have seals. It's usually anticipated, by manufacturers, that temps will be in the high range.

Another thing that might put your mind at ease, is to look at shear temps for the oil you're using. If the heat is below shear, it's fine.

 

[TheOldHokie]

From what I understand, oil will heat when it bypasses. All of my stuff is open center hydraulics.......it generates a lot of heat just bypassing.

If you're concerned about temps...........I wouldn't be overly concerned. Take a look at allowable temperatures for bearings. Most are within tolerance at temperatures up to 230 degrees. The big limiter on temps, is usually the seals, if they have seals. It's usually anticipated, by manufacturers, that temps will be in the high range.

Another thing that might put your mind at ease, is to look at shear temps for the oil you're using. If the heat is below shear, it's fine.

In a properly dedugned open center system oil circulates constantly through the neutral circuit at just slightly above atmospheric pressure.

Reservoir->Pump->Valve->Reservoir

That is not bypassing and if the components of the circuit are sized to match the flow rate coming from the pump it generates minimal heat. You get excessive heat when the components are too small for the flow rate.

TOH

 

[OldMassey44]

Used the splitter all day yesterday, must have been above 30 Celsius outside and the oil reached 220F. Cylinder started leaking at the rod more and pump sounds like it cavitates once oil is warm. Pump is quite when oil is cold, pump is quite when valve is in action in either direction once warmed up. Still no pressure gauge. Engine is throttled down to almost an idle. Oil still looks like it did even after hitting 220F