Massey Ferguson 2200 Forklift no oil to hydraulic pump.

[TwinDad]

I have a MF 2200 that needed the engine rebuilt so I finished that up and got it running now I'm not getting any oil to the hydraulic pump. When I pulled off the pump the put a plug in the suction line to keep it full and then when I put the pump back on I removed the plug and hooked up the pump and filled hydraulic tank. I got the engine running and noticed that I had no hydraulics on the mast. I thought at first it was just air and it would work itself out but nope. I pulled the suction line off and it is full of oil at the filter however there's a upside down U in the suction line right before the pump and I'm getting no oil beyond that point. I've tried forcing the oil over the hump with air even moved the line up so it was at a 45-50 degree angle and tried using air pressure to move the oil and so far have just managed to cover myself in oil. I'm considering cutting the suction line at the hump and putting in something that would allow me to fill it on the pump side but would prefer another method. One thing the oil seemed to come out of the filter housing a lot faster when I first pulled the line than it is now. Of course it was warmer then too so maybe that's why. All I know that I had the tanked filled to full and yet it's not pushing the oil hard enough to get to the pump and the I'd like to know why in world the person who designed this setup didn't run the suction line along the from and up to the pump versus putting a massive hill in the suction line.

 

[MKinON]

If you're in a cold climate, any chance there's a plug of water frozen at the bottom of the tank side of the U?

 

[TwinDad]

If you're in a cold climate, any chance there's a plug of water frozen at the bottom of the tank side of the U?

We live in NC so I don't think that's the issue. It's been chilly, for here lately but will be in the mid 60's by the middle of the week. I'll check it then just to make sure. Thanks for idea and the response.

 

[MKinON]

We live in NC so I don't think that's the issue. It's been chilly, for here lately but will be in the mid 60's by the middle of the week. I'll check it then just to make sure. Thanks for idea and the response.

The pump won't pull without oil in it and if your filter is dirty enough it may be hindering the flow. Might be worth changing it, especially if it's close to the interval.

 

[TwinDad]

The pump won't pull without oil in it and if your filter is dirty enough it may be hindering the flow. Might be worth changing it, especially if it's close to the interval.

I'm not sure how many hours are on the filter. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to change the filter. I talked to the previous owner before I bought it and he didn't use it much because he couldn't get it to run correctly. He was told by the previous owner that it had been rebuilt. The engine had been rebuilt but whoever did it stripped the nut on the camshaft and just left it like that. The oil pan had about an inch of sludge in it, so it must have been run some after the rebuild. I'll look into getting a new filter as that's a good idea.

 

[stevieb49829]

If you can, crack open the suction line right at the pump and then put the air pressure to your reservoir until you have oil seeping out of the opened fitting. That will get your oil past that air bubble and close to the gears in the pump. It sounds like that section after the "u" drained out quickly and is now an air bubble right in front of the pump. You could also pull the suction line off at the pump and hold it up, fill it with oil, and slop it back in place before the oil sloshes out again. I like the pressure method better. steve

 

[MKinON]

I'm not sure how many hours are on the filter. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to change the filter. I talked to the previous owner before I bought it and he didn't use it much because he couldn't get it to run correctly. He was told by the previous owner that it had been rebuilt. The engine had been rebuilt but whoever did it stripped the nut on the camshaft and just left it like that. The oil pan had about an inch of sludge in it, so it must have been run some after the rebuild. I'll look into getting a new filter as that's a good idea

After having a look in the AGCO parts book, your reservoir is way higher than the pump. It should easily self prime through that line so long as the oil in the tank is higher than the highest part of the line to the pump, which it is. Somehow, somewhere there's a restriction in the supply line, or maybe at the bottom of the tank.

 

[TwinDad]

Update. I pulled the filter housing and cleaned it all out and changed the filter. Couldn't tell if the old filter was dirty or not. I refilled the tank and left the suction line next to the pump cracked and got a little oil. Tried running the engine for a couple minutes after tightening up the suction line fittings and nothing. Tried pressuring the oil tank with air while leaving the suction line cracked open and nothing. Tried jacking up the front of the forklift so the tank would be even higher than the pump and putting pressure on the tank and then tightening everything up and letting the engine run and nothing. I'm not sure what else to do at this point. Figured tomorrow I would try pulling the suction line at the filter again and allowed the system to drain again. The suction line is a solid line and can't be pulled out without removing the piece that the radiator bolts to. I think the previous owners got a little crazy and welded things together that shouldn't be, which I why I did an inframe rebuild because the engine can't be pulled without lifting it over the piece that holds the radiator. If anyone has any suggestions I would love to hear them because the only idea I have left is cutting the solid line and putting a piece of suction line in that runs along the frame and then up to the pump from underneath. That's going to involve a torch which honestly I'd like to avoid if possible. I really don't understand why it isn't flowing enough to bypass that hump. I even pulled the dipstick thinking maybe I was getting a vacuum in the line and that was causing it not to want flow. Maybe it is something at the bottom of the tank. I'll be checking that out tommorow so I'll let you know. Hopefully I'll have good news and it will be working. I did get it starting well now as it I think I had accidentally gotten the timing too far advanced, so at least that's positive. Thanks for the help and suggestions.

 

[stevieb49829]

Update. I pulled the filter housing and cleaned it all out and changed the filter. Couldn't tell if the old filter was dirty or not. I refilled the tank and left the suction line next to the pump cracked and got a little oil. Tried running the engine for a couple minutes after tightening up the suction line fittings and nothing. Tried pressuring the oil tank with air while leaving the suction line cracked open and nothing. Tried jacking up the front of the forklift so the tank would be even higher than the pump and putting pressure on the tank and then tightening everything up and letting the engine run and nothing. I'm not sure what else to do at this point. Figured tomorrow I would try pulling the suction line at the filter again and allowed the system to drain again. The suction line is a solid line and can't be pulled out without removing the piece that the radiator bolts to. I think the previous owners got a little crazy and welded things together that shouldn't be, which I why I did an inframe rebuild because the engine can't be pulled without lifting it over the piece that holds the radiator. If anyone has any suggestions I would love to hear them because the only idea I have left is cutting the solid line and putting a piece of suction line in that runs along the frame and then up to the pump from underneath. That's going to involve a torch which honestly I'd like to avoid if possible. I really don't understand why it isn't flowing enough to bypass that hump. I even pulled the dipstick thinking maybe I was getting a vacuum in the line and that was causing it not to want flow. Maybe it is something at the bottom of the tank. I'll be checking that out tommorow so I'll let you know. Hopefully I'll have good news and it will be working. I did get it starting well now as it I think I had accidentally gotten the timing too far advanced, so at least that's positive. Thanks for the help and suggestions.

So do you have oil pouring out the bottom of the reservoir if you take off the suction line there? It seems you have an obstruction in the tank or a collapsed suction hose. There should be a strainer in the tank where the suction hose exits. Pressure on the tank should easily blow oil down the open suction line. steve

 

[TwinDad]

Update #2

I just finished with it for the day and still no luck. I drained the tank completely again. I pushed pressured air through the suction line that runs directly from the tank to the filter and with the line open through the tank through the suction line. Didn't notice any obstructions either way. I pulled the filter apart again and inspected the pipes to make sure there were no obstructions there. One thing that I notice is the manual says you should drain out ten gallons but I'm not getting any more than 7-8. I put about 10 gallons back into the tank, so it's overfilled hoping the extra fluid would push the oil over that hump and nope. I checked the filter housing to make sure it was installed correctly and it was/is. I jacked the front of the forklift up about 8-12 inches hoping that extra angle would help get the oil flowing over the hump and nope. I took off the vents from the tank and cleaned them up and reinstalled in case the suction was creating a vacuum which was stopping oil flow but nope. I've tried running it with the tank lid loose off to the side and that didn't help. Tried running it with the pressure side off the pump and nothing. At this point I'm not sure what else I can do other than cutting the suction line prior to the hump and rerouting it along the frame to the pump, as it should have been done from the factory. One thing I did notice today is the oil was flowing out of the filter housing faster, for a while. Prior to changing the filter it would filled my funnel up about half way. Now it keeps the funnel completely full, almost overflowing for the first circa 3-4 gallons. I'm very appreciative of everyone's suggestions and if someone has another other than cutting the metal line I'm willing to try it. I'm out of ideas other than parking it on a steep hill. At this point I'm starting to get concerned for the pump. It has never gotten hot or even warm so I think I'm still in the clear but don't know how much I should drive the machine. So far everything has been done in the shop and it's moved no more than 5-6 feet. Oh I think it's idling around 800-900 RPM, hard to tell the tach on the machine isn't working. Thanks again for your suggestions and help everyone.

 

[TwinDad]

If you can, crack open the suction line right at the pump and then put the air pressure to your reservoir until you have oil seeping out of the opened fitting. That will get your oil past that air bubble and close to the gears in the pump. It sounds like that section after the "u" drained out quickly and is now an air bubble right in front of the pump. You could also pull the suction line off at the pump and hold it up, fill it with oil, and slop it back in place before the oil sloshes out again. I like the pressure method better. steve

I have tried to as much as I can. The hard line is stuck can't be pulled out completely. Unfortunately the pressure relief valves are preventing me from putting too much pressure into the tank, thinking about putting plugs in them to solve that problem.

 

[Jim.ME]

Update #2

I just finished with it for the day and still no luck. I drained the tank completely again. I pushed pressured air through the suction line that runs directly from the tank to the filter and with the line open through the tank through the suction line. Didn't notice any obstructions either way. I pulled the filter apart again and inspected the pipes to make sure there were no obstructions there. One thing that I notice is the manual says you should drain out ten gallons but I'm not getting any more than 7-8. I put about 10 gallons back into the tank, so it's overfilled hoping the extra fluid would push the oil over that hump and nope. I checked the filter housing to make sure it was installed correctly and it was/is. I jacked the front of the forklift up about 8-12 inches hoping that extra angle would help get the oil flowing over the hump and nope. I took off the vents from the tank and cleaned them up and reinstalled in case the suction was creating a vacuum which was stopping oil flow but nope. I've tried running it with the tank lid loose off to the side and that didn't help. Tried running it with the pressure side off the pump and nothing. At this point I'm not sure what else I can do other than cutting the suction line prior to the hump and rerouting it along the frame to the pump, as it should have been done from the factory. One thing I did notice today is the oil was flowing out of the filter housing faster, for a while. Prior to changing the filter it would filled my funnel up about half way. Now it keeps the funnel completely full, almost overflowing for the first circa 3-4 gallons. I'm very appreciative of everyone's suggestions and if someone has another other than cutting the metal line I'm willing to try it. I'm out of ideas other than parking it on a steep hill. At this point I'm starting to get concerned for the pump. It has never gotten hot or even warm so I think I'm still in the clear but don't know how much I should drive the machine. So far everything has been done in the shop and it's moved no more than 5-6 feet. Oh I think it's idling around 800-900 RPM, hard to tell the tach on the machine isn't working. Thanks again for your suggestions and help everyone.

A couple questions.

What are you using for oil/fluid in the system?

From the parts book it appears the reservoir is a good bit above the pump and the top of the "hump" in the suction line. Is this correct? How much elevation difference roughly from the outlet of the reservoir to the pump suction port?

You had the pump off correct? Have you confirmed the pump drive went back together properly?

Could something have gotten into the suction port of the pump while it was off?

Have you tried cranking it over with the suction line hooked up and the pressure line from the pump loose?

 

[TwinDad]

A couple questions.

What are you using for oil/fluid in the system?

From the parts book it appears the reservoir is a good bit above the pump and the top of the "hump" in the suction line. Is this correct? How much elevation difference roughly from the outlet of the reservoir to the pump suction port?

You had the pump off correct? Have you confirmed the pump drive went back together properly?

Could something have gotten into the suction port of the pump while it was off?

Have you tried cranking it over with the suction line hooked up and the pressure line from the pump loose?

Using AW46 hydraulic fluid recommended for Parker Hannifin (Denision) HF-0, HF-1, HF-2, and T6H20C
Eaton Vickers 35VQ25A Pump, M-2950-S and I-286-S
Cincinnati Milacron P-68, P69, and P70
DIN 51524-2
Yeah the reservoir is a higher than the hump in the suction line. Without measuring my estimate would be 2-3'.
Yes I've had the pump off twice and it is a splined shaft so it won't bolt up if it isn't properly engaged.

I plugged both ends of the suction line after I removed them, removed the filter side first to drain the system. I put a plug in the line right away and put a plug in the lower end after removing the pump, it's really tight in there and it doesn't want to come off until the pump is removed. I checked the lower end of the suction line with a TIG rod to make sure I pulled the plug and the rod went in a 6-8" so I don't see how anything could have gotten in the line. Upper end was plugged the entire time the pump was off as was the lower.

Yes I tried just cranking it on the battery and I started it and let it run for circa a minute or two with the suction line attached and the pressure line off. I did this with the tank completely topped off and the front of the machine elevated.

I can see if I can run a try running a full TIG rod up the lower end of the suction line and see what happens. I'm truly stumped. I'm going to our local farm supply store today and am going to see if I can get some suction line.

When I turn off the engine I hear something that sounds like a vacuum being released. I'm not sure if it's there every time or not, sorry my memory just isn't that great anymore, but it's definitely there sometimes and has been from the first time I got the engine running. Oh I plugged both sides of the pump as well after I removed it and set it on a bench. All told it was off for probably around 9 months, I have fibromyalgia so things take me a while to get done. If you can think of anything that will help let me know. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for the reply.

 

[TwinDad]

A couple questions.

What are you using for oil/fluid in the system?

From the parts book it appears the reservoir is a good bit above the pump and the top of the "hump" in the suction line. Is this correct? How much elevation difference roughly from the outlet of the reservoir to the pump suction port?

You had the pump off correct? Have you confirmed the pump drive went back together properly?

Could something have gotten into the suction port of the pump while it was off?

Have you tried cranking it over with the suction line hooked up and the pressure line from the pump loose?

The last reply is answering your questions. Sorry thought I had hit the reply to but guess not.

 

[MKinON]

A couple questions.

What are you using for oil/fluid in the system?

From the parts book it appears the reservoir is a good bit above the pump and the top of the "hump" in the suction line. Is this correct? How much elevation difference roughly from the outlet of the reservoir to the pump suction port?

You had the pump off correct? Have you confirmed the pump drive went back together properly?

Could something have gotten into the suction port of the pump while it was off?

Have you tried cranking it over with the suction line hooked up and the pressure line from the pump loose?

Agreed, you've confirmed the pump is working? You sure you have the pump in the right way and don't have the inlet and outlet ports backwards? Aren't the pump, ports and mounting flange more or less symmetrical so you could get it mixed up?

 

[Jim.ME]

Using AW46 hydraulic fluid recommended for Parker Hannifin (Denision) HF-0, HF-1, HF-2, and T6H20C
Eaton Vickers 35VQ25A Pump, M-2950-S and I-286-S
Cincinnati Milacron P-68, P69, and P70
DIN 51524-2
Yeah the reservoir is a higher than the hump in the suction line. Without measuring my estimate would be 2-3'.
Yes I've had the pump off twice and it is a splined shaft so it won't bolt up if it isn't properly engaged.

I plugged both ends of the suction line after I removed them, removed the filter side first to drain the system. I put a plug in the line right away and put a plug in the lower end after removing the pump, it's really tight in there and it doesn't want to come off until the pump is removed. I checked the lower end of the suction line with a TIG rod to make sure I pulled the plug and the rod went in a 6-8" so I don't see how anything could have gotten in the line. Upper end was plugged the entire time the pump was off as was the lower.

Yes I tried just cranking it on the battery and I started it and let it run for circa a minute or two with the suction line attached and the pressure line off. I did this with the tank completely topped off and the front of the machine elevated.

I can see if I can run a try running a full TIG rod up the lower end of the suction line and see what happens. I'm truly stumped. I'm going to our local farm supply store today and am going to see if I can get some suction line.

When I turn off the engine I hear something that sounds like a vacuum being released. I'm not sure if it's there every time or not, sorry my memory just isn't that great anymore, but it's definitely there sometimes and has been from the first time I got the engine running. Oh I plugged both sides of the pump as well after I removed it and set it on a bench. All told it was off for probably around 9 months, I have fibromyalgia so things take me a while to get done. If you can think of anything that will help let me know. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for the reply.

With the reservoir 2 to 3 feet above the hump oil should run out the line at the pump when disconnected, the hump would not stop it. It might not be fast because it has to go through the filter, but it should come through after a bit. You could try taking the filter element out of the housing and see if oil comes through the line. If it does try hooking it up and running it to see if the pump picks it up. If it does, put the element back in. If it doesn't you likely have a problem in the pump.

 

[TwinDad]

Agreed, you've confirmed the pump is working? You sure you have the pump in the right way and don't have the inlet and outlet ports backwards? Aren't the pump, ports and mounting flange more or less symmetrical so you could get it mixed up?

The inlet and outlet of the pump are obvious and it was put on exactly the way it came off and the hydraulics worked fine prior to the engine being rebuilt. I turned the pump by hand and it after pouring hydraulic fluid into the inlet and it was building pressure on the outlet so I believe the pump is fine. Hydraulic fluid comes out of the filter around circa 2 gallons per minute for the first couple minutes. When I first pulled the line from the filter it seemed to flow faster then it does now but perhaps the system still had some residual pressure in it. I never drained the section of the suction line because it is essentially captured between the radiator support and the side of the forklift. I can't seem to get my pics to attach. I wish it was something like that but unfortunately it is installed correctly .

 

[TwinDad]

There now they attached.

 

[MKinON]

There now they attached.

Perhaps there's something stuck in that suction line, like a piece of hose from the connection at the filter, or a piece of rag that plugged the end while it was disconnected? I would replace both the soft pieces at either end of that steel line first. They look old and the layers can separate. Working them to take it apart may have made a small problem on the inside worse. No matter the speed of flow through the filter, if it sat long enough, it would gravity prime that line. Have you tried taking that line off at both ends to take it out? With the right manipulation it looks like it could come out. If all else fails, cut it and replace it with hydraulic hose.

 

[TwinDad]

Perhaps there's something stuck in that suction line, like a piece of hose from the connection at the filter, or a piece of rag that plugged the end while it was disconnected? I would replace both the soft pieces at either end of that steel line first. They look old and the layers can separate. Working them to take it apart may have made a small problem on the inside worse. No matter the speed of flow through the filter, if it sat long enough, it would gravity prime that line. Have you tried taking that line off at both ends to take it out? With the right manipulation it looks like it could come out. If all else fails, cut it and replace it with hydraulic hose.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I was going to try this evening to at least drain the line. I know it looks like it could come out but it is stuck in there. I think a previous owner welded some pieces in that used to be bolted. When I tried pulling the engine I took all the bolts out of the frame there by the steering axle and the bolts that hold the engine to the frame and that areas was still solidly stuck together, which is why I rebuilt the engine in frame. The problem with trying to pull the hard line out is that when you try to turn the pipe it either hits the engine block or the frame. I'm going to order some new suction line, unfortunately the place I went to yesterday had 1" and 1.5" suction line but no 1.25" and knew of nowhere local where I could find some. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep plugging away at it and keep you all apprised of how it goes.