Massey Ferguson 35 Perkins Diesel engine misfire

[Apprentice Tractor Fixer]

Hello all,
I have recently got a masseu ferguson 35 with what i know to be a Perkis ad3.152 from what i think was a Massey ferguson 135. The tractor currently has a 135 style rev counter in it with just over 2000 hours on it, i believe that this is the original hours on the engine as the insides of the engien look good.

After buying the tractor as a hard/reluctant starter that didn?t run well if it managed to start up. Upon investigation 3 malfunctioning injectors and a blown head gasket was the problem. The head was sent away to be re surfaced and have the valves re ground. The injectors also got professionally rebuilt. Upon re assmelby the engine started up but didn?t seem to run propely.

I now know that the problem is a cyclider that isn?t fireing at low rpm. When you give the tractor 1/2 throttle and over the third cylider kicks in as the engine smooths out and starts to run better. This is while the tractor is at a standstill as it can?t be driven due to issues with the front axle. After the rubuild this tractor has been stated up 15-20 times running for usualy only a short period of time the longest been between 15mins and half an hour as a guess. The rest just short fire ups. The tractor produces no smoke from the exhaust at any time, while running or at start up. During the rebuild the injection pump wasn't touched, but the fuel filter was repalced. The internal condition of the engine seems good. The engine starts very well off the key but it doensn?t sound correct compared to our other massey ferguson 35 with the correct engine (4500 hours). The injection system has been bled from the tank all the way to the injectors twice. Can i turn my injectors upside down and check how the attomise the fuel, this was recomended by an ex perkins manager that i know but these engines where before his time.
Also can anyone explain how the high pressure pump works and if it has any one way valves that may be stuck or anything.

Any help would be useful. Any think you want to know that i have missed please ask as it may help me find the issues.
I hope some one can help me who has had a simar issue or knows more about injectors and high pressure pumps than i. The interesting factor about it to me is that the third cylinder chimes up at higher rpm levels and the fact that no smoke is present indicating unburnt fuel in the exhaust at lower rpms/ tickover. I am going to try and find out which one of the 3 is at fault at the weekend so may have more information by the end of the weekend.

Regards,
Tom

 

[grhuck]

(quoted from post at 13:38:48 08/31/18) Hello all,
I have recently got a masseu ferguson 35 with what i know to be a Perkis ad3.152 from what i think was a Massey ferguson 135. The tractor currently has a 135 style rev counter in it with just over 2000 hours on it, i believe that this is the original hours on the engine as the insides of the engien look good.

After buying the tractor as a hard/reluctant starter that didn?t run well if it managed to start up. Upon investigation 3 malfunctioning injectors and a blown head gasket was the problem. The head was sent away to be re surfaced and have the valves re ground. The injectors also got professionally rebuilt. Upon re assmelby the engine started up but didn?t seem to run propely.

I now know that the problem is a cyclider that isn?t fireing at low rpm. When you give the tractor 1/2 throttle and over the third cylider kicks in as the engine smooths out and starts to run better. This is while the tractor is at a standstill as it can?t be driven due to issues with the front axle. After the rubuild this tractor has been stated up 15-20 times running for usualy only a short period of time the longest been between 15mins and half an hour as a guess. The rest just short fire ups. The tractor produces no smoke from the exhaust at any time, while running or at start up. During the rebuild the injection pump wasn't touched, but the fuel filter was repalced. The internal condition of the engine seems good. The engine starts very well off the key but it doensn?t sound correct compared to our other massey ferguson 35 with the correct engine (4500 hours). The injection system has been bled from the tank all the way to the injectors twice. Can i turn my injectors upside down and check how the attomise the fuel, this was recomended by an ex perkins manager that i know but these engines where before his time.
Also can anyone explain how the high pressure pump works and if it has any one way valves that may be stuck or anything.

Any help would be useful. Any think you want to know that i have missed please ask as it may help me find the issues.
I hope some one can help me who has had a simar issue or knows more about injectors and high pressure pumps than i. The interesting factor about it to me is that the third cylinder chimes up at higher rpm levels and the fact that no smoke is present indicating unburnt fuel in the exhaust at lower rpms/ tickover. I am going to try and find out which one of the 3 is at fault at the weekend so may have more information by the end of the weekend.

Regards,
Tom

If you have a CAV made, DPA model pump on it, and I believe that the only pump that was applied to this tractor, you may have whats known as an IEB Irregular Exhaust Beat. It's been a few years since I've heard of this but the pump injects fuel on the exhaust stroke if I remember correctly, due to the secondary wave pulse in the high pressure line leading from the pump's high pressure outlet to the Nozzle (injector). Take it to your local fuel injection shop and tell them you may have an IEB going on. I would make sure that theyre Delphi authorized (Delphi now owns CAV). A good shop will know what you're talking about and make the necessary repair. Which I think is to phase the pump internal supply pump's pressure wave to occur at a different time in the pump's rotation.

 

[Dieseltech]

Three cylinder CAV DPA pumps are phase sensitive with the blade rotor slots in relation to the hydraulic head outlet ports. That may be the problem IF all three injectors have "normal" leak off fuel, meaning very little. If there's too much back leak on one injector that will cause the problem you describe also.

 

[jm.]

Engine insides LOOK good, with a blown head gasket you very well may have a weak cylinder and only firing once you speed it up. Hope for your sake it is in the fuel pump but my money is low compression on one cylinder. You are on the right track , finding which cylinder first has to be the plan then decide why.

 

[Apprentice Tractor Fixer]

Hello, thanks for the suggestion.

Don?t know if i mentionded this in the first post but the gasket had blown between cylinder one and two and was the cheap composite type not the copper type. The new one is a copper type.

If i had a cylinder with lower compression than normal why would it fire up in the mid rpm range? I would have thought if compression was an issue the cylider would stayed dead or picked up after the engine had been running for a while due to increased heat.

I also think it?s stange that i get no smoke from my exhaust while running at any point, even when revving up/down. This would indicate to me that no fuel is getting to the problem cylinder at lower rpm. I may be wrong though. If i pull out the injectors i will have to do a compreshion check as the one that diagnosed the head gasket was ussless for cylidner 1 and 2.

Tom

 

[ptfarmer]

While it's running at idle crack each injector line open then closed one at a time. That should tell you which cylinder isn't working, then you could swap the injectors around, crack the injector lines again, and see if its the same cylinder or if its the same injector.

 

[Cormiers Cove]

Dieseltech

If the pump is in time and how can it be out of phase?. The head only bolts onto the housing in one way. Trying to understand this better. What happens when it is out of phase?
What causes this out of phase ?

 

[Cormiers Cove]

grhuck,

This EIB, is it a timing issue thing. if the pump is in time and set correctly with the compression stroke of the engine with the pump timed for say 20 degrees Before Top Dead Centre how can a pump have EIB and inject fuel on the exhaust stroke?