More starter woes..

[Lance J.]

Today I took my 3 month old broken starter back to the shop I bought it from. The guy who runs the place looked at it and said what had likely happened was the flywheel kicked backwards and broke the bendix and nose cone, and the armature is likely bent also. He said at this point I might as well get a new starter, and that whoever he gets them from would not warranty it because the source of the damage was outside the starter.

More than a little annoyed, I told him I was going to go to the Ferguson dealer and get the proper 12 volt starter for it. He agreed that was the best thing to do. He said that being a 6 volt starter on a now 12 volt tractor the condition that caused this was even worse. I must admit that I neglected to tell him the tractor was now 12 volt when I bought the starter a few months ago.

So, now I have a 218.00 core and must go shopping for a new 12 volt starter. I never thought that being a 6 volt starter would affect things that much. I wonder if my starting procedure made it worse. Usually I crank the tractor for about 3 seconds with the choke all the way out. Then, with the choke fully in I hit the starter again and she fires right up. Is this causing the kickback condition he was talking about? This tractor starts and runs great and aside from this I've never had any serious troubles. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I NEVER STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF A START CONDITION, UNLESS THE STARTER DIS-ENGAGES. THEN I WAIT FOR ROTATION TO STOP BEFORE I RE-ENGAGE THE STARTER.
I PULL THE CHOKE JUST AS YOU DISCRIBED AND WITH THE THROTTLE AT 3/4 THROTTLE, THE ENGINE WILL START ON MY 1955 TO-35.

 

[Melville Will]

Lance, I"d agree with prior advice to be sure the timing is spot on, as even only slight pre-ignition can overstress the starter drive and cone. In addition I am a real fan of electronic ignition. The 6v starter on my TO-30 (12v conversion) starts every time in one second or less.

Bill

 

[Jerry/MT]

I have a hard time buying your suppliers story. That starter is going to "kick the flywheel back" and bend the armature. Any "kick back" would cause a torsional load in the shaft and there is somekind of a clutch in the bendix that would limit that load. What bent your armature was the failure of the nose that allowed a bending load to be put on the shaft.

I don't know about the timing argument. I've never had the timing so far off that there was any kick back.
I have had a 6V starter running at 12V for the 14 years I've owned my TO-30 with no problems whatsoever. So have a lot of other people. Every once in a while we hear about these problems and I think the problem is a defective nose casting and/or assembly of the starter without the thrust washer.

 

[Lance J.]

Yeah Jerry, I'm less than convinced myself, especially since I paid him way too much for the darn thing in the first place. Geez, he could have at least offered me another one at his cost?I used the old starter for a year and a half before it went out and theres no telling how old it was when I got the tractor. I emailed the MF dealer about a new one and they should reply tomorrow. I'll be sure to check the ignition timing just in case. Man, I wouldn't mind installing a hand crank on this thing and be done with this nonsense!! ;-D

 

[Bob (Aust)]

Doesn't the TO20/30 come with a hand crank, the same as the TEA20?

Ah, yes, the suppliers 12/12 warranty on new parts.

12 seconds or 12 revolutions, which ever comes first ...... after that you're on your own!

 

[dfitch]

Lance what condition is the flywheel ringgear in? If the starter and ringgear teeth are not meshing correctly, that is far more likely to break a nosecone than timing kickback is. I had 2 nosecones break before replacing my ringgear and no problem since. A little bit of work but not much expense compared to the price of a new starter.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Did you check the broken surfaces to ascertain if there was a crack in it prevously, sometimes a part shows up dirtier than the rest,and in that case you could expect him to replace it,seems with the engine kickback he is steering the fault onto you..
I have a 6v with 12v battery.. I don't touch accelerator, pull choke out,hit button fires immediately, push choke in and then open accelerator, works every time..secret is not to use starter in long bursts and overheat it.

 

[Griz]

I had a bout with bad stater drives. I went through three starters. Broke the drives on each one. I couldn't get more than 2 or 3 starts out of them. Co. I bought it through said all he had sold in the last several months had bad drives bad. All of them were coming back. He said every one gets them from a common source in China. Apparentally the convicts whipped up a bad batch of of pot metal. I ended up replacing the drive. I got it from this site. It's been working good for about a month now.

 

[Lance J.]

Ahh yes Bob, thats the kind of warranty I got from this guy. I went to him because he's a small one man operation and I like to support the little guys. No good deed goes unpunished I suppose. The big nut that secures the crankshaft pulley appears to have a slot in the middle for a hand crank, and there actually is a hole in the front of the hood for that purpose, just no crank.

 

[Lance J.]

dfitch- Yes, I did inspect the ring gear and everything inside the bellhousing by taking off the inspection plate. To my surprise, everything inside there appears new. I didn't observe anything out of the ordinary with the ring gear.

 

[Lance J.]

Bendee- The nose cone made a clean break, you can put it back together and its very difficult to see. I think a weak nose cone casting caused all this.

 

[MHMalcom]

Did you turn the engine slowly by hand to inspect the ring gear all the way around?

If there is even one defective tooth, that could be enough to break the nose cone. I've seen it happen several times. Starter rebuilders and manufacturers will definitely not cover broken nose cones under warranty unless you can prove it was cracked before hand. This will usually show up as a "parting" line on the break, differentiating the new break from the old, although I have never seen it happen.

Another thing that I have seen cause it is if someone replaced the ring gear and distorted it during installation. When a ring gear is heated correctly, it will fall down on the flywheel to the shoulder under its own weight. No hammering is needed. I have seen tractors that were routinely breaking nose cones that someone had just installed a new ring gear in. After examining the ring gear you could see where someone hammered on it and distorted it. It doesn't take much distortion or runout to break a nose cone.